Where Houllier Went Wrong?

[Real Ray]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,27-548632,00.html

OK, perhaps an overstatement, but I thought this part rings true re: how he uses media: There is a strong suspicion that Houllier thinks this is all a jolly effective way of making sure he generates fear and respect. When he took full control of the club he made no secret of his admiration for Sir Alex Ferguson. We all know how Fergie strikes fear into anyone who dares question him. But Fergie keeps his glare and his bile for the dressing-room. Houllier sometimes seems to conduct his team talks via the media.

The timing of the critique of young Steven was questionable. Was Houllier diverting attention from Liverpool’s poor show in Europe? Worse still, was he deflecting blame? A constant theme of Houllier’s tenure has been the distance he puts between himself and the result. When Liverpool are winning this is marvellous self-deprecatory stuff, when they are losing it leaves a gaping hole whereby the players themselves shoulder all the responsibility.

And as she points out, the quick sacking/benching of keepers?

[kerpow]

Wow, a Times reader on this site. Thought we were all mindless Sun readers :)

Those comments about Houlliers blasting of Gerrard are spot on. No way would Fergie say anything derrogatory about any of his players and several have performed very poorly ever since they were champions. Veron and Forlan took a long time to settle but never a bad word was muttered. Wenger is the same but has had the luxury of all his players exceeding expectations in the last year or so. But even when they had that minor blip after we beat them and then lost to a couple of teams in Europe and finally Blackburn the critisism was never directed at a certain player. Wenger just whines and makes piss poor excuses and while this may be very annoying to a fan it doesn't harm the team in any way.

Liverpools problems lay alot deeper however. For me Liverpool still don't resemble a serious challenger to the title and it is the nature of the squad that is preventing them from being so. Ultimately it is the manager who should shoulder the blame for this as he is responsible for signing new players.

Firstly, do Liverpool have a fighter, a leader, a player who will dig deep and spur on the others. No. Keane at Man U is of course the perfect examle. Viera, whilst being less vocal has similar qualities. Gerrard may excel in this role in the future but is still too young.

Secondly width. Giggs, Pires, Kewell, Solano, Simon Davies, Damien Duff. All these lads are pacy wingers that score plenty of goals or at least assists. Ever played a Fantasy Football league? These are the guys you want in your team. Great on counterattack, 10-15 goals a season. Liverpool have who. Riise? Good crosser but doesn't get forward enough or run at defenses. They're other players are good aswell but just don't weigh in with the goals. Why did Houllier spend loads of money for Diouff when he has Owen, Baros and Heskey. A decent wide man was needed. There was talk of Duff coming to Anfield. What about Peter Lovenkrands up at Rangers, great pace.

[jumhed]

Spending £110million on average players.

Putting lumpy striker Heskey on the wing.

Persisting with Smicer.

Leaving Riise on the bench a lot (which is also screwing up my fantasy football team, dammit!)

Dropping Dudek (debatable).

Blasting players in public.

Selling Fowler.

Keeping all those average players because they're homegrown (Murphy, Carragher etc).

The bug-eyed Frenchman is losing it big time!

[BerwynBlazers]

houllier went wrong with messin with sander westervald then dudek.

diouf, who scored today, but besides that has had trouble adjusting.

milan baros needs to play more.

heskey must have the hook up.

henchoz and hyypia getting older and slooweer.

traore has shown he has some potential.

IT'S ALL ABOUT MICHAEL OWEN'S GAMBLIN PROBLEMS RIGHT NOW!

[Bauser]

Originally posted by BerwynBlazers
henchoz and hyypia getting older and slooweer.
These guys are still in their twenties! There is too much focus on age. Central defenders can play at top level at least until 35 if they keep away from serious injuries.

[El_Diamante_Negro]

Could someone please xplain why Riise doesn't play as much as he did last season? he seemed to play well in the games i was able to see. I had him on my fantasy team and *boom*, he is on the bench this year. What happened?

[Matt Clark]

Dearie me ... how ironic. A thread that started with a flawed, but well-intendioned article from the broadsheet level of intelligent perspective immediately dives off into the dreary stupidity of tabloid hackery. Nice going, kids.

So, allow me to attempt to elevate this whole thing back to the level at which Ray originally pitched it.

Spending £110million on average players.

:rolleyes: I'm going to call Snopes about this one one day. It's amazing how something so obviously false can have such legs. Think it through, will ya - Houllier's three most expensive signings (Heskey, Hamann and Diouf) add up to less than £30m spent. So unless everyone who uses this tiresome little factoid genuinely is stupid enough to believe that the rest of his squad cost EIGHTY MILLION pounds, then we're looking at a bit of a tall story here, aren't we kids? Yes, we are Matthew. And even if one or two of you come back and DO prove that stupid, then we would still only be looking at the gross figure, wouldn't we? Not accounting for the income generated by sales like Fowler, Matteo, McAteer, Wright, Ince, Thompson and the like.

I'll save you the bother - his expenditure in the four seasons he has been in charge adds up to just over £50m. Or £12.5m a season on average.

henchoz and hyypia getting older and slooweer.

:p Dearie me ...

Best central defensive partnership in Britain, one of the best in the world. Are you blind, stupid, or both?


IT'S ALL ABOUT MICHAEL OWEN'S GAMBLIN PROBLEMS RIGHT NOW!

Well, definitely one of the three ...

Selling Fowler.

Sigh ... this is like that £110m one, it just won't go away. Seeing Fowler go saddened all true Reds no end. But then, so did seeing the sulky, peripheral figure he had become since his halycon days in the mid-90's. Injury, form, Micheal Owen and plain old fate robbed Fowler of his position at Anfield and, by the time we sold him it was a case of when, not if, in any case. It was best for both parties that he go. The fact that Houllier was the one to actually get it going is more or less irrelevant to the actual truth of the situation.

xplain why Riise doesn't play as much as he did last season

Because he has failed to demonstrate his form from last season on most occasions this season. Only subsequent to being dropped in recent games has his form returned and he is now fighting his way back into the picture. That's how we want it - players fighting to get back into the team. Previously, he was one of the players who was guilty of hiding during the early stages of our slump.

Keeping all those average players because they're homegrown (Murphy, Carragher etc).

Are you ********ing mental? What a tragically idiotic thing to say. For a start, homegrown players will always have a place at Liverpool, and rightly so and for a second, neither player is average. Murphy has been a pillar of consistency and willing endeavour and his goalscoring record from midfield holds up against anyone else in the division. Get a grip, eh?

And finally, criticising Stevie G (not "players") in public - well what can I say? This would be the same Stevie G that has since returned to his monstrous best and, in so doing, dragged us out of the shit we were in just days ago?

Yeah ... tragic blunder, Ged.

Bottom line is that Gerrard has been sub-par for most of the 18 months since the treble. His approach was wrong, his lifestyle at times questionable, he has had family problems, all sorts has been going on - and throughout, Houllier has been his staunchest ally, his mentor. He has had him living at his house, for Chrissakes! But there comes a time when the normal repertoire of motivational techniques begins to run thin and the public upbraiding becomes a last resort that may actually need to be tried. Don't give me all that shit about Ferguson and Wenger would not do that, anyone who says that has been following football for about 3 and a half minutes. Houllier would not normally do it either, but it remains a legitimate technique when one of your most important players, despite totally beyond-the-call-of-duty attention from you, is not pulling it together.

[jumhed]

Originally posted by Matt Clark
Dearie me ... how ironic. A thread that started with a flawed, but well-intendioned article from the broadsheet level of intelligent perspective immediately dives off into the dreary stupidity of tabloid hackery. Nice going, kids.

So, allow me to attempt to elevate this whole thing back to the level at which Ray originally pitched it.



:rolleyes: I'm going to call Snopes about this one one day. It's amazing how something so obviously false can have such legs. Think it through, will ya - Houllier's three most expensive signings (Heskey, Hamann and Diouf) add up to less than £30m spent. So unless everyone who uses this tiresome little factoid genuinely is stupid enough to believe that the rest of his squad cost EIGHTY MILLION pounds, then we're looking at a bit of a tall story here, aren't we kids? Yes, we are Matthew. And even if one or two of you come back and DO prove that stupid, then we would still only be looking at the gross figure, wouldn't we? Not accounting for the income generated by sales like Fowler, Matteo, McAteer, Wright, Ince, Thompson and the like.

I'll save you the bother - his expenditure in the four seasons he has been in charge adds up to just over £50m. Or £12.5m a season on average.



:p Dearie me ...

Best central defensive partnership in Britain, one of the best in the world. Are you blind, stupid, or both?




Well, definitely one of the three ...



Sigh ... this is like that £110m one, it just won't go away. Seeing Fowler go saddened all true Reds no end. But then, so did seeing the sulky, peripheral figure he had become since his halycon days in the mid-90's. Injury, form, Micheal Owen and plain old fate robbed Fowler of his position at Anfield and, by the time we sold him it was a case of when, not if, in any case. It was best for both parties that he go. The fact that Houllier was the one to actually get it going is more or less irrelevant to the actual truth of the situation.



Because he has failed to demonstrate his form from last season on most occasions this season. Only subsequent to being dropped in recent games has his form returned and he is now fighting his way back into the picture. That's how we want it - players fighting to get back into the team. Previously, he was one of the players who was guilty of hiding during the early stages of our slump.



Are you ********ing mental? What a tragically idiotic thing to say. For a start, homegrown players will always have a place at Liverpool, and rightly so and for a second, neither player is average. Murphy has been a pillar of consistency and willing endeavour and his goalscoring record from midfield holds up against anyone else in the division. Get a grip, eh?

And finally, criticising Stevie G (not "players") in public - well what can I say? This would be the same Stevie G that has since returned to his monstrous best and, in so doing, dragged us out of the shit we were in just days ago?

Yeah ... tragic blunder, Ged.

Bottom line is that Gerrard has been sub-par for most of the 18 months since the treble. His approach was wrong, his lifestyle at times questionable, he has had family problems, all sorts has been going on - and throughout, Houllier has been his staunchest ally, his mentor. He has had him living at his house, for Chrissakes! But there comes a time when the normal repertoire of motivational techniques begins to run thin and the public upbraiding becomes a last resort that may actually need to be tried. Don't give me all that shit about Ferguson and Wenger would not do that, anyone who says that has been following football for about 3 and a half minutes. Houllier would not normally do it either, but it remains a legitimate technique when one of your most important players, despite totally beyond-the-call-of-duty attention from you, is not pulling it together.

A well put together riposte Matt. I would like to add though, that for all of the Liverpool squads obvious talent, they are one horrible team to watch.

[Matt Clark]

I'll live.

You're a Spurs fan, that clouds your judgement. Every manager you've ever had, including the Bungster, turns into Roy Evans the minute they walk through the door.

[Foxhound]

Originally posted by Matt Clark
I'll live.

You're a Spurs fan, that clouds your judgement. Every manager you've ever had, including the Bungster, turns into Roy Evans the minute they walk through the door.

Ever had ? You're exaggerating again arent you Matthew.

I see you are still flying the flag for gerald. Talk about the blind leading the blind .....

[Randy]

"A one-eyed man is king among the blind"!!

[jumhed]

Originally posted by Randy
"A one-eyed man is king among the blind"!!

Are you talking about penis's?

Or maybe it's about Sir Galahad in Castle Anthrax.

'I can handle them!'

Sir Lancelot 'No, you're in mortal danger!'*



* Watch Monty Python and the Holy Grail.

[jumhed]

Originally posted by Matt Clark
I'll live.

You're a Spurs fan, that clouds your judgement. Every manager you've ever had, including the Bungster, turns into Roy Evans the minute they walk through the door.


I disagree. Every manager since Venables (barring Graham and hopefully the Lunatic Hodd), has been rubbish before they came to Spurs. Ardiles, Shreeves, Gross, Gerry sodding Francis (evil scumbag). All crap. I wish we'd had Roy Evans in those years.

Being a Spurs fan tends to cloud my judgment about Spurs, and not much else. Except possibly that last sentence about Roy Evans.

[Matt Clark]

LOL! Well, I guess you could make some form of argument for the idea that Venables' record at Spurts (one Cup, one Cup final) was better than Uncle's (one cup, two cup finals), but only because Tezza's was FA-flavoured, rathern than League.

Oh go on then ... I'll give you Bill Nicholson. You big, famous club you ...

[Foxhound]

Nicholson won more honours than Shankly.

Don't forget Keith Burkinshaw. The only manager to have successfully defended the FA cup (well along with Bill Nick)

[Matt Clark]

The only Spurs manager. That's like putting Kylie in a room full of midgets and giving her credit for being tall.

[Foxhound]

How can you criticise when you have Houllier at the helm ? He couldnt even take France to the World Cup in 94.

Face it, you havent had a decent manager since Dalglish. Not that Dalglish has covered himself in much glory since he left Blackburn.

[Matt Clark]

I can criticise on any number of levels. Are you seriously putting Houllier up against Hoddle and/or Graham in terms of what they have achieved with their respective clubs since 1998?

Face it, your infantile little crusade will remain exactly that forever more. That you are now actually throwing Spurts into the ring as well just smacks of desperation.

A desperate Spurs fan ... now there's a thing, eh?

No wonder the Gooners consider you such a very funny little breed indeed.

[Foxhound]

Hoddle got England to the World Cup which is more can be said of Houllier's efforts with France.

Don't forget the budget at Spurs has been nothing like that of Liverpools. The current board and Sugars regime have hardly ploughed millions into transfer funds. Houllier has had an open Cheque book. Some of his buys have been nothing short of embarassing though.
I am not on a Spurs crusade. It seems that you are on an anti-Spurs crusade. I can't see what your problem is.

[Matt Clark]

Haha! An anti-Spurs crusade. Now there's a concept. Not even Arsenal fans go on one of those. Why on earth would anyone else? You're just Spurs.

Hating Spurs would be a bit like, I dunno .... hating Thursdays. Who's got the time and what would be the point?