Does England suffer from EPL interest?

[Alan D]

What I mean by that is, do you think that the England international squad suffers because of the Premiership being (arguably) the best league in the world? Most players want to play in the Premiership from all around the world, meaning there are limited places for English players.

Take a look at Serie A and Italy's international squad. Their strikers are Alessandro Del Piero, who plays for Juventus, Christian Vieri who recently just played for AC Milan and has now moved to Monaco and Antonio Cassano who used to play for Roma before recently moving to Real Madrid. And then look at the England strikers: Rooney who plays for Man Utd and Owen who plays for Newcastle and theres Crouch for Liverpool, but after that we don't have any strikers who are playing for the bigger teams in English football and the other English strikers who are considered for international duty are Defoe (Tottenham), Vassell (Man City), Darren Bent (Charlton) and a few others who are at smaller clubs (although when I say smaller, they are still pretty big teams anyway).

But the big Italian teams all have mostly Italian players playing for them so the international squad has a bigger choice of people, whereas we have players who aren't playing at the same level (not for the biggest teams in their country). I mean, Arsenal only use 2 Englishmen in their team and at times there isn't any at all through injuries.

I don't know a great deal on this topic and I was wondering what everyone else thought of it. The FA were apparently meant to be bringing in a new rule soon where there has to be at least 6 Englishmen starting each game for every Premiership team.

[Mr. Bee]

I dont understand this question?

With the exception of Beckham and Hargreaves, doesn't pretty much EVERYBODY on the England NT play in England, and almost all in the Premiership?

[Alan D]

What I mean is, other countries like Italy have players to pick from in the top European leagues playing for the top European teams, whereas England only have players to pick from the Premiership, and some of our international players dont play for the top English teams so we don't have as many players to pick from :rolleyes:

[King-James]

It's probably better for England's NT players to play in the EPL rather than a weaker, tactically uni-dimensional league.

You can blame players not getting playing time on themselves, for signing for clubs that they won't make a starting spot for. And you can blame the NT manager for not knowing how to scout. It's not an inherent fault of the league or the NT.

[Mr. Bee]

and some of our international players dont play for the top English teams so we don't have as many players to pick from :rolleyes:

I'm sorry, but this makes no sense? What does club size have to do with anything when it comes to International selection? Is this like a question of too many Internationals playing for one "big" side so they don't get in the starting XI and therefore sacrifice some international aspirations (witness SWP)? Or are you honestly saying that the England NT can only pick from players at top English teams?

Because Green plays for Norwich he's not available to "pick"?

[Alan D]

I'm sorry, but this makes no sense? What does club size have to do with anything when it comes to International selection? Is this like a question of too many Internationals playing for one "big" side so they don't get in the starting XI and therefore sacrifice some international aspirations (witness SWP)? Or are you honestly saying that the England NT can only pick from players at top English teams?

Because Green plays for Norwich he's not available to "pick"?


What I am saying is, since every football player in the world wants to play in the Premiership, it limits the chances of English players to play at the highest level (e.g. European competitions) cos there are a lot of foreign players about in the Premiership.

An example of what im saying is this: Our top 4 English goalkeepers are Robinson, James, Kirkland and Green. None of these keepers play for the 'big 4' in English football and one even plays for a Championship side. Look at Italy's goalkeepers, they have keepers from Inter Milan, Juventus, Udinese and Lazio who are the biggest teams in Italian football.

The question is, if this rule comes in where each team in the Premiership must have at least 6 English players starting every game, will it give the England National Team more competition from places.

P.S. Its hard to explain so I cant blame you for getting confused. If you still dont understand it then dont try anymore cos it is hard to explain.

[sinner78]

certain aspects of the league damages the teams chances..

-brutal schedule which leaves the team wasted by tournament time.
-no winter break
-less chance for young players to break through .stakes are so high that teams cant really gamble with youngsters .


I reckon a two week winter break in january and clubs having lower division feeder teams would solve these problems.

[PsychedelicCeltic]

I dont understand this question?

With the exception of Beckham and Hargreaves, doesn't pretty much EVERYBODY on the England NT play in England, and almost all in the Premiership?
I think the point is that La Liga, Serie A, Bundesliga, etc all have a much higher proportion of native players than the Premiership.

One problem is that it is fundamentally cheaper to sign a foreign player than to sign an English player. That needs to stop.

[Mr. Bee]

I think the point is that La Liga, Serie A, Bundesliga, etc all have a much higher proportion of native players than the Premiership.

One problem is that it is fundamentally cheaper to sign a foreign player than to sign an English player. That needs to stop.

Oh, agreed. If Zat Knight was from the United States he'd be un-capped and not worth the kit on his back - yet some people value him upwards of 5m right now, which is ridiculous.

But I'm not sure exactly how that affects the England NT.

As far as the question goes, is the concern that playing for a "smaller" Premiership team such as Charlton, etc. disqualifies you from European competition or something, and therefore lessens your experience?

But, if the Premiership is that much better than the rest, doesnt that mean that by playing on any team in the Premiership, they are already facing the best in the world, week in and week out?

[Teso Dos Bichos]

Very easy topic of discussion to understand and one that I fully agree with. This type of argument was brought forward a while ago when discussing the international dominance of Brazil. Obviously the country size, culture and economy are key, with the latter of particular importance. Their best players get early experience domestically, before moving abroad. That frees up space for the next batch to continue the cycle. Sheer numbers clearly help, but it is the experience that is key.

Contrast your typical top level Brazilian player to an English equivalent. The Brazilian will have been playing domestically from around 18 years old. After gaining that experience of regular game time, they will move abroad. During that they will be learning different styles of football, coaching and climate. The English equivalent will only just be breaking into their side at around 20 years old minimum. Even then, they will be struggling to get into the side, competing against foreigners and will lack all of the Brazilian's experience.

England is currently the exact opposite of Brazil. Not a good state of affairs for the future.

[benni...]

This is what one of my coaches tell me. If your good enough or talented or show any kind of promise, you will get your chance.

By saying that I mean, it could be a possible drought of quality, or promising young players in the country, or it could be poor development.

[RichardL]

certain aspects of the league damages the teams chances..

-brutal schedule which leaves the team wasted by tournament time.
-no winter break
-less chance for young players to break through .stakes are so high that teams cant really gamble with youngsters .

I'd like to see limits imposed on squad sizes. It can't help our game that all the promising young players get swallowed up into the youth systems of the larger clubs, and most never play first team football until they are kicked out at about 23. What's the point of the likes of Walcott going to Arsenal? Apart from the odd cup appearence, he's never going to get a game. He'd do far better playing proper games, getting proper experience. If the bigger teams couldn't hog all of these younger players, there'd be premiership clubs who would play them.


I reckon a two week winter break in january and clubs having lower division feeder teams would solve these problems.
I don't know. I'd be competitively unfair if some smaller clubs were allowed to field several young potential stars in their team for free (paid for by the parent club).

[sinner78]

I'd like to see limits imposed on squad sizes. It can't help our game that all the promising young players get swallowed up into the youth systems of the larger clubs, and most never play first team football until they are kicked out at about 23. What's the point of the likes of Walcott going to Arsenal? Apart from the odd cup appearence, he's never going to get a game. He'd do far better playing proper games, getting proper experience. If the bigger teams couldn't hog all of these younger players, there'd be premiership clubs who would play them.


I don't know. I'd be competitively unfair if some smaller clubs were allowed to field several young potential stars in their team for free (paid for by the parent club).


teams need depth to survive an english season.
If you have limit on squad size it could mean that there is even less room for english talent .I guess the only way is to have foreigner limits but that aint gonna happen .True that some good youngsters get wasted at places like Arsenal .I agree .

[King-James]

An example of what im saying is this: Our top 4 English goalkeepers are Robinson, James, Kirkland and Green. None of these keepers play for the 'big 4' in English football and one even plays for a Championship side. Look at Italy's goalkeepers, they have keepers from Inter Milan, Juventus, Udinese and Lazio who are the biggest teams in Italian football.

Part of that probably has to do with the huge disparity in wealth from top to bottom in Serie A in comparison to the EPL. The big clubs have little competition for the best Italian players.

I don't see how there is much a problem, besides the fact that players care more about getting that reserve spot at a big club than getting regular playing time at a smaller club. It's their fault if they don't want to develop well and become the best English players. It just feels odd to me to deny them that freedom just for a possible benefit to the NT.

[leg_breaker]

I think the point is that La Liga, Serie A, Bundesliga, etc all have a much higher proportion of native players than the Premiership.

Because the way the TV money is dealt out means the smaller clubs can't afford foreigners so they have to put up with lower quality domestic players instead.

Also having lots of Spaniards in La Liga doesn't seem to have helped Spain.

One problem is that it is fundamentally cheaper to sign a foreign player than to sign an English player. That needs to stop.

Surely the solution to that is to lower the prices of English players? £7.5 million for Dean Ashton...

England have the best group of players since 1970 anyway so what's the problem?

[Alan D]

[QUOTE=leg_breaker]Surely the solution to that is to lower the prices of English players? £7.5 million for Dean Ashton...QUOTE]

Ashton isn't worth that kind of money, even if he is a decent player. Even Alan Pardew said that they paid way too much for him and that he has to start scoring goals for West Ham to 'pay off the debt'.

[sendorange]

There are a significant number of quality English players available for reasonable fees.

Paul Robinson was only 1.5 million, Aaron Lennon 1 million, Michael Carrick 2.5 million, Jermaine Defoe 6 million, Michael Dawson 2 million rising to 3/4 with appearences. I'm sure there are plenty of other examples.

The problem is that the expensive foreign players are a bigger risk. Only have to look around the league to see how many with great reputations and big fees have been signed and then sunk without trace - Veron, Rebrov, Balaban to name just a small selection.

Ashton may not be worth 7 million, but he is a surer bet to make some kind of contribution, or have a resale value if he does not succeed, than someone like Samaras from Heerenven who has looked good in a foreign league but may fail to adapt and become valueless.

When you bear in mind the added competition for any noticable player with any degree of proven talent among the cash rich midtable Premiership teams, that is what inflates the prices still further.

[benni...]

The English also suffer from wanting to be proud. Or something along the lines of that. To some National pride is important, and if it were up to some, there wouldnt be any foreigners in the English Premier League. Some people expect club managers to give young English players a chance, simply because they are English and play for an English club.

Me being raised in another part of the world do not agree with this, but Thats just where I feel the problem stems from.


Like I said earlier, it shouldnt really matter where you come from, but just if you can play.

[sendorange]

The English also suffer from wanting to be proud. Or something along the lines of that. To some National pride is important, and if it were up to some, there wouldnt be any foreigners in the English Premier League. Some people expect club managers to give young English players a chance, simply because they are English and play for an English club.

Me being raised in another part of the world do not agree with this, but Thats just where I feel the problem stems from.


Like I said earlier, it shouldnt really matter where you come from, but just if you can play.
Every national league on earth has some people who only want domestic players in it. So highlighting that just for England is silly.

[RichardL]

The English also suffer from wanting to be proud. Or something along the lines of that. To some National pride is important, and if it were up to some, there wouldnt be any foreigners in the English Premier League. Some people expect club managers to give young English players a chance, simply because they are English and play for an English club.

Me being raised in another part of the world do not agree with this, but Thats just where I feel the problem stems from.


Like I said earlier, it shouldnt really matter where you come from, but just if you can play.
the other side of the coin is that young players aren't being given the chance to develop because it's seen as safer to buy a player from abroad who can come in and hit the ground running, than it is to nurture a player over a year or two. Sure, the exceptional players will get a game, but what about those who could potentially be good premiership players, but would need a few months of playing (and making mistakes) to gain experience to be good enough? How many managers would take that risk, knowing they could only be 6 or 7 games from the sack at any time?