What's Justice?

[Rostam]

here is an age old question: what's justice?

is justice absolute? or is it the interest of the stronger?

if your definition/belief is faith based, name your faith.

[Rostam]

The wages earned by one's actions.

meaning, inaction results in no justice?

what system would need to be used to evaluate the "actions" in order to award the "wages", and who is the granter?

[Norsk Troll]

what's justice?

http://www.wrestlingtradingcards.com/images/wwf_good_humor/1992_justice.jpg

[#10 Jersey]

here is an age old question: what's justice?

is justice absolute? or is it the interest of the stronger?

if your definition/belief is faith based, name your faith.

You don't answer questions posed of you in other threads; why should anyone answer your questions?

[Mel Brennan]

Search for 'justice' and what do you find?
You find "just us" on the unemployment line
You find "just us" sweatin' from dawn to dusk
There's no 'justice,' there's, huh, "just us..."

Grandmaster Melle Mel - Beat Street

---

Justice is the thing that we've contrvied as the fair and effective response to actions often anti-social, but really justice is "the next best thing" to a just result, to make us feel better about how very often a just result is totally and completely beyond our power to produce.

You stab and kill my father's father. The just result would be for him to not have suffered that pain and died; the just result would be, minimum, to have him alive again and in health. We can't provide each other the just result, so we placate with "justice," which is an often vengeful process that is supposed to make everyone feel better, and offer some closure, but fails to provide the just result for anyone involved.

Instead of justice, it should be called "justish"; like "brownish" is "sorta brown," "justish" is "sorta just."

Whatever you do, please don't confuse "justice" with the just act.

[Rostam]

You don't answer questions posed of you in other threads; why should anyone answer your questions?

what question? I try to answer questions addressed to me as long as they are not hostile or inflamatory. Feel free to bump that thread but let's not mix thread subjects.

[Matt in the Hat]

Can a true Christian believe in justice?

"And early in the morning He came again into the Temple , and all the people came unto Him; and He sat down, and taught them."

"And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto Him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst, They say unto Him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. Now Moses in the Law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest Thou?"

"This they said, tempting Him, that they might have to accuse Him."

"But Jesus stooped down, and with His finger wrote on the ground, as though He heard them not. So when they continued asking Him, He lifted up Himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. And again He stooped down, and wrote on the ground."

"And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst."

"When Jesus had lifted up Himself, and saw none but the woman, He said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? Hath no man condemned thee?"

"She said, No man, Lord."

"And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more." (John 8:2-11 KJV)

[Rostam]

Search for 'justice' and what do you find?
You find "just us" on the unemployment line
You find "just us" sweatin' from dawn to dusk
There's no 'justice,' there's, huh, "just us..."

Grandmaster Melle Mel - Beat Street


there is a lot of truth to that "just us" theory or "the interest of the stronger"!



Justice is the thing that we've contrvied as the fair and effective response to actions often anti-social, but really justice is "the next best thing" to a just result, to make us feel better about how very often a just result is totally and completely beyond our power to produce.

would that apply to justice in other relationships such as "state to its subjects",or "state to other states"?


You stab and kill my father's father. The just result would be for him to not have suffered that pain and died; the just result would be, minimum, to have him alive again and in health. We can't provide each other the just result, so we placate with "justice," which is an often vengeful process that is supposed to make everyone feel better, and offer some closure, but fails to provide the just result for anyone involved.

Instead of justice, it should be called "justish"; like "brownish" is "sorta brown," "justish" is "sorta just."

Whatever you do, please don't confuse "justice" with the just act.

you mentioned "just result" and "just act", don't we need first an agreeable definition for "justice" before one can acheive "just results" as a product of "just act".

[Val1]

Can a true Christian believe in justice?

The Woman brought forth in adultery (John 8:2-11 KJV)

That's easy, yes.

What you've chosen as your passage illustrates the Christian concept of mercy, which for Christians goes hand in hand with justice.

[christopher d]

Search for 'justice' and what do you find?
You find "just us" on the unemployment line
You find "just us" sweatin' from dawn to dusk
There's no 'justice,' there's, huh, "just us..."

Grandmaster Melle Mel - Beat Street
12 hours too late...

[Matt in the Hat]

That's easy, yes.

What you've chosen as your passage illustrates the Christian concept of mercy, which for Christians goes hand in hand with justice.
But then what about judgement. To me it clearly shows that one should suspend judgement in place of mercy. But how do you achieve justice without some judgement?

Could Dr. King be in opposition to Jesus Christ on this topic?

[Rostam]

That's easy, yes.

What you've chosen as your passage illustrates the Christian concept of mercy, which for Christians goes hand in hand with justice.

but you can't possibly grant "merc" for every crime, each time it's committed, or do you make it selective? If so, wouldn't that defeat the whole purpose of "justice"?

[sebakoole]

"Justice" is another name for the Thelonious Monk tune "Evidence". Monk took the chord progression from the standard "Just You, Just Me" and re-wrote the melody and called it "Evidence". Get it? Just You, Just Me --> Just Us or "Justice". Clever, huh?

Oh, sorry, wrong forum...

[Mel Brennan]

...you mentioned "just result" and "just act", don't we need first an agreeable definition for "justice" before one can acheive "just results" as a product of "just act".


I'd argue no. In a world that can envision god as all-powerful, all-knowing, all-wise, existing throughout all spacetime and beyond it, containing all reality and all possiblity within himself, the just act, to me is obvious. Manifestation of the perfect reversal or elimination of the unjust act.

If I kill your father, the just act is for that to never happen, or for your father to be restored to life not feelign the pain and horror of being murdered. Various conceptions of "God," not unlike the above, can certainly get that done, no problem.

We can't ever get that done. So we offer up "justice," which is our effort at the "next best thing" to the just result. It's a reflection of our humanity, or faillibility, or inability to manifest the just. But because we're not God, because we're human, and make mistakes, because we do not exist in all spacetime nad thus cannot concieve of all the possible ramification of an act (and thus cannot call it, ultimately, good or evil, lacking such knowledge), we ought to produce a "next best thing" that is reflective of such, and not one that operates as if it possesses the knowledge and the wisdom of God.

Death penalty? Acting as if one is God. Life in prison? Acknowledging one is human, and can make mistakes.

I smoke a maple leaf, noone bothers me. I smoke a hemp leaf, I go to jail. I smoke a tobacco leaf, I pay taxes...or I go to jail. This has nothign to do with the just act, which brings me to another component of "justice" I offered earlier; it is wholly contrived.

[vivzig]

Irrelevant, except at a personal level.

Not something that exists on the societal level, except by accident. Nor should society concern itself with justice. That thing that society does that looks like justice is merely functional for the self-preservation of society itself, a thing that we should encourage for the sake of safety and solidarity, as well as to give the fringe its reference point.

Justice is interpersonal, not institutional.

[Rostam]

Irrelevant, except at a personal level.

Justice is interpersonal, not institutional.

tell that to the justice department! :D

[vivzig]

tell that to the justice department! :D
I have actually. The only person I talked to that agreed with me, who worked at NIJ, has since taken a job in the private sector. :rolleyes:

[Matt in the Hat]

Justice is interpersonal, not institutional.

Then there isn't an inherent problem with revenge, right?

[vivzig]

Then there isn't an inherent problem with revenge, right?
Only if it is against the law.

[Matt in the Hat]

Only if it is against the law.
Which is institutional