Heaven: How and Why?

[Shurik]

More questions to the believers.

* What exact pleasures await you in heaven? Are they of spiritual kind only (feeling of superiority to the tortured sinners, televised sports), or are bodily pleasures (sex, three-bean salad) also involved?
* Will eternal life without sadness, danger or mystery ever get boring and devolve into a more sophisticated kind of torture?
* Will baptized babies who died in infancy remain forever infants in heaven?
* And, of course, for out Muslim contingent: please, resolve the 72-virgin issue.

[dj43]

More questions to the believers.
I didn't offer heaven and it would by preposterous of me to try to offer God's reasons for what he did. But here is my understanding, being very much a laymen, not a theologian, in response to your questions.

*What exact pleasures await you in heaven? Are they of spiritual kind only (feeling of superiority to the tortured sinners, televised sports), or are bodily pleasures (sex, three-bean salad) also involved?

The Bible says there will be joy in heaven such as we can't imagine. So I don't think you will find a specific answer, but having had some very good times in my life, I don't think I would ever get tired of something so much beyond that I could not imagine it.
*Will eternal life without sadness, danger or mystery ever get boring and devolve into a more sophisticated kind of torture?
see above
* Will baptized babies who died in infancy remain forever infants in heaven?
We will be "as the angels," hence, my guess would be that there may be big angels and small angels, but I have no authority on that one either, but ultimately it won't matter. Better be there than the bad place.

[Mel Brennan]

Heaven, as conceived of by many contemporary Christians, is a place where the positively judged eternally sing the praises of God. All day, everyday, beyond the end of time and forevermore.

Lots of fun.

[christopher d]

Heaven, as conceived of by many contemporary Christians, is a place where the positively judged eternally sing the praises of God. All day, everyday, beyond the end of time and forevermore.

Lots of fun.
Give me Vaughn Williams's Mass in g minor or Byrd's Great Service and we can talk...

[speedcake]

Why will Shurik get more enthusiastic responses to this thread, as opposed to the Hell thread?


I wooonnnnddddeeerrr

[Shurik]

The Bible says there will be joy in heaven such as we can't imagine. So I don't think you will find a specific answer, but having had some very good times in my life, I don't think I would ever get tired of something so much beyond that I could not imagine it.

A fair answer. Now imagine this.
I am a believer, live a righteous life and receive joy such as I can't imagine. Yet someone I deeply care for (my wife, my child) do not, for whatever reason. Will I be able to go on enjoying myself in heaven, knowing that this person (persons) is receiving an eternety of most horrible torture?
And if I could, what kind of person (angel) would that make me?

[royalstilton]

A fair answer. Now imagine this.
I am a believer, live a righteous life and receive joy such as I can't imagine. Yet someone I deeply care for (my wife, my child) do not, for whatever reason. Will I be able to go on enjoying myself in heaven, knowing that this person (persons) is receiving an eternety of most horrible torture?
And if I could, what kind of person (angel) would that make me?
---
this would be a good question if it wasn't weighted with the most dire rhetoric.

the Holy Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments are clear on the path to heaven: God does not send humans to hell. it is a choice to reject personal relationship with God in the now. how can you imagine that God would force someone to spend eternity with Him if that person didn't want to spend a moment with him in their natural lifetime?

since you do not believe that God is and is a rewarder of those who seek Him, you do not know God and do not know His Love, justice, mercy, wisdom, etc -- all the attributes that distinguish Him from us.

what kind of person would be able to reconcile the fact that someone they cared about rejected God's Love?

a human person.

[dj43]

A fair answer. Now imagine this.
I am a believer, live a righteous life and receive joy such as I can't imagine. Yet someone I deeply care for (my wife, my child) do not, for whatever reason. Will I be able to go on enjoying myself in heaven, knowing that this person (persons) is receiving an eternety of most horrible torture?
And if I could, what kind of person (angel) would that make me?
I too have asked this question. As one who met my wife a good bit later in life than I would have liked, and been through more than a few struggles before we found each other, I cannot imagine what life would be like without her.

The answer to this lies in the fact that God's judgement will not be done in secret. Everyone will be able to see and weigh for themselves the deeds of all, both good and bad. And, since we have accepted God's plan, and seen His wisdom, as sad as it may sound now to us mortals, if a loved one is not there, we will clearly see the reason why, and accept it.

As to the kind of person that would make us? One who has accepted God's free grace as opposed to one that has not. I cannot say it any other way than that.

[dj43]

I have an observation I would like to add here:

Over in the Hell thread, I posited that a part of the devil's plan to keep people from looking at the goodness of God and the wonderful future we CAN have, is to get people focused on what may happen to them if they do NOT accept God's plan. As a result they start whining about whether God is fair and just in His "punishment" for non-believers and completely lose focus on what they can have for FREE.

As I type this, it looks like it will be #8 in this thread. Over in the Hell thread the next post will be #32.

It looks like the Bad Guy has proven my point if these two threads are any indication of how he works. We have been focused almost entirely on the thread of the devil's own choice.
:)

[Matrim55]

I'm not a religous person, but my best friend died last month (28 years old, heart attack, yes, I'm pissed) so I've been thinking about this quite a bit. The way I see it, if heaven exists it is one of two things:

- eternal ethereal and spiritual oneness with all that exists in this plane and every other so that We (the collective We/I that is all existance) achieve perfect conciousness and peace

-or-

- an eternal 3-way with Natalie Portman and Jessica Alba

I hope for Adam's sake it's the second, because the first sounds kind of boring.

[dj43]

I'm not a religous person, but my best friend died last month (28 years old, heart attack, yes, I'm pissed) so I've been thinking about this quite a bit. The way I see it, if heaven exists it is one of two things:

- eternal ethereal and spiritual oneness with all that exists in this plane and every other so that We (the collective We/I that is all existance) achieve perfect conciousness and peace

-or-

- an eternal 3-way with Natalie Portman and Jessica Alba

I hope for Adam's sake it's the second, because the first sounds kind of boring.
My sympathies for the loss of your friend. I also lost a close friend at a similar age. It took me years to come to grips with that reality.

As to to your guesses about heaven; I guarantee you it is not the second one. At least not the way you describe it. :)

As to the first one; first try to imagine something that would be a thrill that would exceed a combination of both of your two thoughts, and then give up because it will be even better than that.

I hope that helps. I am not trying to be trite. That is just the way I see and understand it.

[Shurik]

---
what kind of person would be able to reconcile the fact that someone they cared about rejected God's Love?

a human person.

This is what you would call a mother who would submit herself to the eternity of joy and happiness, knowing full well that her child is being eternally tortured in the most horrific ways imaginable (and well beyond)? I would call her a monster.

The answer to this lies in the fact that God's judgement will not be done in secret. Everyone will be able to see and weigh for themselves the deeds of all, both good and bad. And, since we have accepted God's plan, and seen His wisdom, as sad as it may sound now to us mortals, if a loved one is not there, we will clearly see the reason why, and accept it.


Are you familiar with the concept of unconditional love and self sacrifice for one's child and/or loved one? It cannot be circumvented with "seeing the reason why". Does a mother stop grieving for her child even if she clearly knows the reason for his death? And what if he is eternally tortured, for ever and ever and ever, without any hope of salvation, would a mother not be tortured in the same way, even if she fully knew all the "reasons"? Would a mother not happily sacrifice herself just to free her child of this horrible fate?
Wouldn't Heaven then become a sophisticated version of Hell for her? Wouldn't her torment be even worse, because, unlike her suffering son, she would be surrounded by a bunch of happy and peppy self-righteous bastards, headed by the Main Bastard himself, whose "Plan" is responsible fer her and her child's suffering?

Or would she go on enjoying her own holiness, quite satisfied with the "reasons" she was given? Would such a mother deserve your sympathy, let alone a place in Heaven?

[royalstilton]

This is what you would call a mother who would submit herself to the eternity of joy and happiness, knowing full well that her child is being eternally tortured in the most horrific ways imaginable (and well beyond)? I would call her a monster.



Are you familiar with the concept of unconditional love and self sacrifice for one's child and/or loved one? It cannot be circumvented with "seeing the reason why". Does a mother stop grieving for her child even if she clearly knows the reason for his death? And what if he is eternally tortured, for ever and ever and ever, without any hope of salvation, would a mother not be tortured in the same way, even if she fully knew all the "reasons"? Would a mother not happily sacrifice herself just to free her child of this horrible fate?
Wouldn't Heaven then become a sophisticated version of Hell for her? Wouldn't her torment be even worse, because, unlike her suffering son, she would be surrounded by a bunch of happy and peppy self-righteous bastards, headed by the Main Bastard himself, whose "Plan" is responsible fer her and her child's suffering?

Or would she go on enjoying her own holiness, quite satisfied with the "reasons" she was given? Would such a mother deserve your sympathy, let alone a place in Heaven?
---
here's the problem: you're stuck with applying the limited perspective of a person who has decided that God isn't just or even particularly good to a situation that can only be parsed out by a mind transformed by His goodness and grace.

let us use an example: your brother has cancer and you are a perfect bone marrow match. the problem is that you are HIV positive and you certainly would communicate the AIDS disease to him if there was a transplant. he doesn't know that you are HIV positive, however, and he is confused by your reluctance to donate bone marrow. ultimately you die from AIDS, ironically, before his death from cancer.

what would God have a Christian do in this situation? if the Christian were you or your brother? what would Love do?

just for a moment take the Adam and Eve story as literal: why didn't they say "Buzz off!" to God and hang around with the serpent, after they had been expelled from the Garden?

maybe it was because they weren't so furious with God for giving them a limited choice because they had gotten to know Him just a bit and saw that He was good and just and loving...

[Val1]

A fair answer. Now imagine this.
I am a believer, live a righteous life and receive joy such as I can't imagine. Yet someone I deeply care for (my wife, my child) do not, for whatever reason. Will I be able to go on enjoying myself in heaven, knowing that this person (persons) is receiving an eternety of most horrible torture?

Yes, you will, because Heaven, all that we really know about it, is defined in scripture as a "reunion" with God. Heaven is God's presence. Paul states that there is no marriage in heaven, meaning that your now-unfettered relationship with God will matter more than your earthly relationships. The way I read it, you won't notice the absence or presence of your wife and child. In Heaven, you will be absent of worry, so the caring bonds you've made with your family will change into something else.

[Shurik]

You are contradicting the previous posters who said a mother like this would be called "a human being". A human being stripped of his most human emotions ceases to be human. A mother who would stop caring for her child is no longer human. If love for other humans, one of the most important aspects of the human "self" (or "soul", call it what you want), is taken away, what else will be taken away with it? Doesn't the Bible itself proclaims love to be the most important thing? Or is it only the love for one person who suffered for a day and died two thousand years ago? The love for a child you gave birth to, loved with all your heart, held precious and would gladly give your life for no longer counts?
What kind of monstrous soul-sucking pervert is your god, anyway?

[Shurik]

---
here's the problem: you're stuck with applying the limited perspective of a person who has decided that God isn't just or even particularly good to a situation that can only be parsed out by a mind transformed by His goodness and grace.

Just because I am not a believer does not mean I cannot objectively look at the merits of the religious philosophy and apply it to my human experience and morals.
"You must believe to understand" is a lame cop out.

You avoid answering a direct question because this dilemma troubles you as well. It is by no means the only question left unanswered by your dogma, though one of the more troubling ones.

[sebakoole]

More questions to the believers.

* What exact pleasures await you in heaven? Are they of spiritual kind only (feeling of superiority to the tortured sinners, televised sports), or are bodily pleasures (sex, three-bean salad) also involved?
* Will eternal life without sadness, danger or mystery ever get boring and devolve into a more sophisticated kind of torture?
* Will baptized babies who died in infancy remain forever infants in heaven?
* And, of course, for out Muslim contingent: please, resolve the 72-virgin issue.
You include Muslims, so I assume you're addressing adherents of all religions. But not all religions believe in heaven. The Hindu moksha and the Buddhist nirvana are a far cry from anything resembling heaven.

[royalstilton]

Just because I am not a believer does not mean I cannot objectively look at the merits of the religious philosophy and apply it to my human experience and morals.
"You must believe to understand" is a lame cop out.

You avoid answering a direct question because this dilemma troubles you as well. It is by no means the only question left unanswered by your dogma, though one of the more troubling ones.
---
your assertion that it's a lame copout doesn't make it so.

you speak how many languages? two, three? do you speak Farsi? if you don't, no matter how objectively you attempt to look at written text in Farsi, you won't be able to understand it. things of God are spiritually discerned. as Jesus said to Peter, when he told Jesus that he ( J ) was the Christ, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father."

[Shurik]

You include Muslims, so I assume you're addressing adherents of all religions. But not all religions believe in heaven. The Hindu moksha and the Buddhist nirvana are a far cry from anything resembling heaven.
Needless to say, since the object of this thread is to discuss Heaven, I only address my questions to the adherrents of those religions who believe in it.

you speak how many languages? two, three? do you speak Farsi? if you don't, no matter how objectively you attempt to look at written text in Farsi, you won't be able to understand it.

I understand English and have knowldege of human emotions and the concepts of right and wrong on the human level of understanding. This should be enough to debate these issues with other humans who understand the same language, regardless of our mutual religious believes or lack thereof. If you cannot coherently explain your view of the dilemma to a non-believer, it simply means that you fail to grasp it yourself.

[royalstilton]

You are contradicting the previous posters who said a mother like this would be called "a human being". A human being stripped of his most human emotions ceases to be human. A mother who would stop caring for her child is no longer human. If love for other humans, one of the most important aspects of the human "self" (or "soul", call it what you want), is taken away, what else will be taken away with it? Doesn't the Bible itself proclaims love to be the most important thing? Or is it only the love for one person who suffered for a day and died two thousand years ago? The love for a child you gave birth to, loved with all your heart, held precious and would gladly give your life for no longer counts?
What kind of monstrous soul-sucking pervert is your god, anyway?
---
there are different types of love. one is "phileo", love of the kind that humans have toward one another, apart for sexual desire, which is "eros". there is a third kind, "agape", which is love as expressed by God. when Jesus asked Peter, "Do you love me more than these ( his friends, brothers, other disciples ), Jesus used the word "agape". Peter responded, "you know I love you." And he used the word "phileo". Jesus asked the question twice more.

when we are in Heaven, we will know agape love in its fullest measure. things of the world will pass away. God promises to "wipe away every tear".

i feel sad to see that you are so angry with God at having such a narrowly constructed choice, not being free to invent from your cleverness a scheme to put you in favor of the the Cosmos that obviates worship of something other than what we are, but being angry at God, while completely human and understandable, is keeping you stuck.