Hell: How and Why?

[Shurik]

Some questions to the believers.

* Do you really accept the idea of God's Gestapo and how do you envision it? Are Jesus' and Allah's methods of torture more or less terrible than those of the real Gestapo?
* What specific tortures and torments are the non-believers and sinners being subjected to?
* Is it moral of God to dish out terrible torments for all of eternity just for the transgressions that occured during 60-70 years of human existence?
* Is it hypocritical of the Christian God to forbid cruelty yet to indulge in the worst possible kind of it Himself?
* Is the idea of a Christian God who preaches forgiveness yet doesn't practice it in anyway troubling?

[monop_poly]

Some questions to the believers.

* Do you really accept the idea of God's Gestapo and how do you envision it? Are Jesus' and Allah's methods of torture more or less terrible than those of the real Gestapo?
* What specific tortures and torments are the non-believers and sinners being subjected to?
* Is it moral of God to dish out terrible torments for all of eternity just for the transgressions that occured during 60-70 years of human existence?
* Is it hypocritical of the Christian God to forbid cruelty yet to indulge in the worst possible kind of it Himself?
* Is the idea of a Christian God who preaches forgiveness yet doesn't practice it in anyway troubling?

I only wish that I could answer these questions with the same eager earnestness and thoughtful respect with which they were asked.

[Shurik]

I am entirely sinsere in my desire to receive the answers or at least opinions concerning these questions.

[christopher d]

Some questions to the believers.

* Do you really accept the idea of God's Gestapo and how do you envision it? Are Jesus' and Allah's methods of torture more or less terrible than those of the real Gestapo?
* What specific tortures and torments are the non-believers and sinners being subjected to?
* Is it moral of God to dish out terrible torments for all of eternity just for the transgressions that occured during 60-70 years of human existence?
* Is it hypocritical of the Christian God to forbid cruelty yet to indulge in the worst possible kind of it Himself?
* Is the idea of a Christian God who preaches forgiveness yet doesn't practice it in anyway troubling?
Curious: does Judaism have a "hell"? If not, what is the particular punishment for breaking one of the Mitzvos? If so, why bother singleing out Christianity and Islam? But, if there is no real punishment for breaking the Mitzvos, why bother? Is there a carrot to be gained, rather than a stick to be avoided? If so, why bother singleing out Christianity and Islam for their unfair treatment of the "good" and "bad"?

And, why limit the discussion to religions of the book, anyway? The entire idea of Karma as a determiner for reincarnation status can fit into the "Hell" discussion. One would have to be one goody-two-shoes mayfly in one's one hour of life to make up for things like mass murder.

[monop_poly]

I am entirely sinsere in my desire to receive the answers or at least opinions concerning these questions.

OK.

1. What gestapo?
2. Not known. Current popular belief in Christian circles seems to be eternal separation from God is torture of choice.
3. God is holy and the creator of all things.
4. God is holy and the creator of all things.
5. God is holy and the creator of all things.

[Shurik]

Curious: does Judaism have a "hell"?

From what I understand, the Jewish faith does not have clearly defined concepts of the afterlife.

If so, why bother singleing out Christianity and Islam?

I do not mean to. I am an atheist and will welcome a Judaist explanation.
My specific focus on the Christian God was because I precieve the Christian postulate of forgiveness as severely confliciting with the concept of eternal punishment.

And, why limit the discussion to religions of the book, anyway? The entire idea of Karma as a determiner for reincarnation status can fit into the "Hell" discussion. One would have to be one goody-two-shoes mayfly in one's one hour of life to make up for things like mass murder.

I don't mind if Hunduism and Bhuddism are discussed as well. My questions pertain to any religion that includes the concept of punishment and torture in the afterlife.

[Shurik]

OK.

1. What gestapo?

Hell. I tried to use the strongest human-made equivalent.
Are you saying Hell is less or more cruel than the Gestapo?

2. Not known. Current popular belief in Christian circles seems to be eternal separation from God is torture of choice.

I am currently separated from God, yet feel no torture. Will hell be pretty much the same for me as it is now?

3. God is holy and the creator of all things.
4. God is holy and the creator of all things.
5. God is holy and the creator of all things.

These are mantras, not explanations.

[speedcake]

You realize there isn't a point in asking these questions, right? Even if you had done it in the most thoughtful, reasonable way humanly possible.

[BlueMeanie]

* Is it moral of God to dish out terrible torments for all of eternity just for the transgressions that occured during 60-70 years of human existence?
If you have time, and want a perspective other than those here, Google:

"St. Augustine" "St. Paul" hell

...in which you can find endless info and opining on how the fire-and-brimstone interpretation of Hell as "eternal torture" came to be.

[christopher d]

You realize there isn't a point in asking these questions, right? Even if you had done it in the most thoughtful, reasonable way humanly possible.
Well, there are those on this board who see synergy in the concept of Divine Judge and Divine Benefactor. Hopefully they'll have answers for Shurik. :)

[Smiley321]

The toughest question of all: which place, heaven or hell, will entail spending eternity next to Tammy Faye Bakker? Or Jerry Lewis?

Where do the Scientologists end up?

[dj43]

Some questions to the believers.

* Do you really accept the idea of God's Gestapo and how do you envision it? Are Jesus' and Allah's methods of torture more or less terrible than those of the real Gestapo?
Being cut off from God and realizing their eternal loss will be the ultimate torture. As to the exact nature of the bad place, we have no specific description but the allegorical ones certainly point out that a person should accept the fact that God has given us more than enough opportunities to make sure we don't go there.
* What specific tortures and torments are the non-believers and sinners being subjected to?
None have been specifically pointed out but it is clear that there will be greater punishment for some than others.
* Is it moral of God to dish out terrible torments for all of eternity just for the transgressions that occured during 60-70 years of human existence?
The punishment is for continuing to reject a very simple plan that makes up for a lifetime of evil. How many years should a person be allowed to reject salvation without paying a price?
* Is it hypocritical of the Christian God to forbid cruelty yet to indulge in the worst possible kind of it Himself?
As stated above, we don't know the nature of the bad place but we do know that His Son went through some pretty bad stuff to make sure we don't have to. Does that sound cruel to you?
* Is the idea of a Christian God who preaches forgiveness yet doesn't practice it in anyway troubling?
Now you do not seem to understand how far God will go in offering forgiveness. In the OT he worked for over 4,000 years with folks who just continued to go back to their evil ways and still God went ahead with His plan to make sure that even those backsliders would have a chance for forgiveness.

[bigredfutbol]

Being cut off from God and realizing their eternal loss will be the ultimate torture. As to the exact nature of the bad place, we have no specific description but the allegorical ones certainly point out that a person should accept the fact that God has given us more than enough opportunities to make sure we don't go there.

But you're not given a choice about whether you want to make a deal or not. It's 'my way or the highway to hell.'

None have been specifically pointed out but it is clear that there will be greater punishment for some than others.

Interesting.

The punishment is for continuing to reject a very simple plan that makes up for a lifetime of evil. How many years should a person be allowed to reject salvation without paying a price?

Totalitarianism at its finest--you born 'guilty' by virtue of being human, and then you spend an eternity in hell if you refuse to accept forgiveness for the crime of being human.

As stated above, we don't know the nature of the bad place but we do know that His Son went through some pretty bad stuff to make sure we don't have to. Does that sound cruel to you?

What did I do to deserve to go there in the first place?

Now you do not seem to understand how far God will go in offering forgiveness. In the OT he worked for over 4,000 years with folks who just continued to go back to their evil ways and still God went ahead with His plan to make sure that even those backsliders would have a chance for forgiveness.

In the OT, he only worked with one ethnic group. I don't see Yahweh reaching out to the Hittites much.

[Shurik]

Being cut off from God and realizing their eternal loss will be the ultimate torture.

Unless I don't understand the terminology, this is the state I am in now.

As to the exact nature of the bad place, we have no specific description but the allegorical ones certainly point out that a person should accept the fact that God has given us more than enough opportunities to make sure we don't go there.

I am not sure this can be said of people living in the jungles of Africa, unbaptized children who die in infancy and those folks who are simply content with living a good life without accepting the dogmas of the church.
Also, the existance of many different schools of religious thought with conflicting ideologies do not make for an easy choice. One would hope for God to make it a bit more obvious.

None have been specifically pointed out but it is clear that there will be greater punishment for some than others.

Most Christians since the advent of the religion believed in horrendous physical torture. Do you think such an outcome is possible?

The punishment is for continuing to reject a very simple plan that makes up for a lifetime of evil. How many years should a person be allowed to reject salvation without paying a price?

The price for rejecting the dogma of one of many existing religions during the 60-70 years of conscious existance is an eternity of torture. Does this not seem exceptionally cruel?

As stated above, we don't know the nature of the bad place but we do know that His Son went through some pretty bad stuff to make sure we don't have to. Does that sound cruel to you?

If this occured, this was a voluntary act which did not last for an eternity? Should people be forced to go through an eternity of torture?

Now you do not seem to understand how far God will go in offering forgiveness. In the OT he worked for over 4,000 years with folks who just continued to go back to their evil ways and still God went ahead with His plan to make sure that even those backsliders would have a chance for forgiveness.

Yet god does not forgive those who commit the transgression of not believing in him. Is there a contradiction?

[nicephoras]

Curious: does Judaism have a "hell"? If not, what is the particular punishment for breaking one of the Mitzvos? If so, why bother singleing out Christianity and Islam? But, if there is no real punishment for breaking the Mitzvos, why bother? Is there a carrot to be gained, rather than a stick to be avoided? If so, why bother singleing out Christianity and Islam for their unfair treatment of the "good" and "bad"?

And, why limit the discussion to religions of the book, anyway? The entire idea of Karma as a determiner for reincarnation status can fit into the "Hell" discussion. One would have to be one goody-two-shoes mayfly in one's one hour of life to make up for things like mass murder.

Juadism has no concept of hell, and mizvot does not mean what you think mitzvot does.
Juadism has no punishment for the wicked except, I believe, for certain provisions for punishment of those who are truly monstrous. (I may be wrong on this last point.)

[bigredfutbol]

Curious: does Judaism have a "hell"?

Not as far as I know.

If not, what is the particular punishment for breaking one of the Mitzvos?

I honestly don't know.

If so, why bother singleing out Christianity and Islam?

Ever heard of Buddist Hell? Taoist Heaven? What about Hinduism--not much room for the concept of an 'afterlife' in a religion that believes in reincarnation.

But, if there is no real punishment for breaking the Mitzvos, why bother? Is there a carrot to be gained, rather than a stick to be avoided? If so, why bother singleing out Christianity and Islam for their unfair treatment of the "good" and "bad"?

Because the concept of "Hell" is specific to the above-mentioned monotheisms.

And, why limit the discussion to religions of the book, anyway? The entire idea of Karma as a determiner for reincarnation status can fit into the "Hell" discussion.

No, it can't--Hell is eternal, fixed, with no escape clause. Not the same thing at all.

One would have to be one goody-two-shoes mayfly in one's one hour of life to make up for things like mass murder.

Christians don't believe you go to hell for a body count--they believe you go for refusing to accept God's forgiveness, regardless of how much of a goody-goody you were otherwise. If an atheist spends his or her entire life feeding the starving, clothing the naked, tending to the sick, and generally being of comfort and aid to his/her fellow man--he or she goes straight to hell after death. That's not Karma.

[christopher d]

Juadism has no concept of hell, and mizvot does not mean what you think mitzvot does. I think there were 613 of them, mostly in Deuteronomy. I thought the singular was "mitzvah" instead of "mitzvot", and I'm reasonably certain they are commandments of divine law as expressed to the Jews a-way back when. Am I close?
Juadism has no punishment for the wicked except, I believe, for certain provisions for punishment of those who are truly monstrous. (I may be wrong on this last point.)
Cool, thanks... Judaism and Christianity have so many parallels that in a primarily Christian society, the divergencies don't get as much exposure as they ought.

[DJPoopypants]

Curious: does Judaism have a "hell"?

Yes.

Marriage

[christopher d]

Ever heard of Buddist Hell? Taoist Heaven? What about Hinduism--not much room for the concept of an 'afterlife' in a religion that believes in reincarnation. OK, I'll give you the Taoists, and spot you the Confucianists, Shintoists and all aborigional religions and their recreations. But I'm pretty sure both Buddhism and Hinduism had a place called Nirvana, where you went if you re-incarnated enough times with a positive balance in your karmic checking account, and didn't feel like going back as a boddhisatvha. (Of course, reading [/i]The Dharma Bums[/i] and Siddhartha and taking one comparative religions class hardly makes me an expert on the subject. ;) )



Because the concept of "Hell" is specific to the above-mentioned monotheisms.OK. But, the Karmic Elevator goes up and down. You could wind up a mayfly, or worse -- a "hungry ghost", seeking release from an eternal Jacob-Marley-esque hell.[/quote]



No, it can't--Hell is eternal, fixed, with no escape clause. Not the same thing at all.Sure, but while the USA might not be in the Group of Death, it's going to be a bitch to get out of Group E. It's a question of materiality.[/quote]



Christians don't believe you go to hell for a body count--they believe you go for refusing to accept God's forgiveness, regardless of how much of a goody-goody you were otherwise. If an atheist spends his or her entire life feeding the starving, clothing the naked, tending to the sick, and generally being of comfort and aid to his/her fellow man--he or she goes straight to hell after death. That's not Karma.Then I'm glad I'm not a Christian. But, as I found out after posting that to which this was a reply, this thread wasn't for me, anyway ;)

[DJPoopypants]

Christians don't believe you go to hell for a body count--they believe you go for refusing to accept God's forgiveness, regardless of how much of a goody-goody you were otherwise. If an atheist spends his or her entire life feeding the starving, clothing the naked, tending to the sick, and generally being of comfort and aid to his/her fellow man--he or she goes straight to hell after death. That's not Karma.

Eh, not completely accurate. not accurate at all.

Some christians may feel that way, but the faith vs works debate has been neverending and has split 'Christians' so that there is no uniform belief.

the debate about who gets to go to heaven and why is a debate, not something all christians agree to.

For example, catholics used to think athiests and unbaptised kids could go to limbo (tho now I hear limbo may be abolished)

other sects believe in predestination, that God has already made his choice before you are born.