Religion's Role in Morality

[#10 Jersey]

I believe that Religion has had a major impact on what we call our moral values. Where do you think our value system came from? Is it religion? Other sources? A combination?

[Riz]

I'm more inclined to believe it is a combination.

Similarly, is the idea of one's own conscience, which is a central tenet of my own belief system, a religious contruct or not? Seems a bit chicken and egg to me at times.

[Calexico77]

Religion is a codification of thousands of years of tribal/societal practices and morals. I cannot think of a religion that hasn't mutated during large cultural shifts. I'm not that familiar with current day-to-day practices of Hinduism, however. Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, etc., have all splintered and mutated depending on times that surround them.

That's not to say that there aren't strong cornerstones in each Religion, or that these cornerstones shift every 100 years. Religion is one of the strongest comon threads through generations and generation. But again, it's still a codification (or even interpretation of a code) of existing moral beliefs.
Societies adapt, and so do religions and those who look to convert others.

It does, however, become something of a chicken and egg argument, however, when it does get handed down from generation to generation

[christopher d]

Very much chicken and egg, imho. That's actually the reason that "morality" is part of the forum title.

hgold, reading your posts in the Politics forum, I believe you're Jewish (and excuse me if I'm off-base here). Couldn't one consider Moses receiving the Ten Commandments on Mt. Sinai the most obvious link (in the Religions of the Book, at least) between Religion and Morality?

[Dan Loney]

It's not a chicken and egg argument. Morals came first. Morality can exist outside religion. Nowadays, religion attempts to monopolize the field, but morals don't come from religion any more than the world was built in six days. This is a Western monotheistic theocratic conceit, nothing more.

Now, having morality subjects discussed here makes more sense than putting it in MLS Expansion, sure, but Religion, Spirituality and Morality aren't identical any more than Books, Television and Music.

[bungadiri]

Religion is a codification of thousands of years of tribal/societal practices and morals. I cannot think of a religion that hasn't mutated during large cultural shifts. I'm not that familiar with current day-to-day practices of Hinduism, however. Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, etc., have all splintered and mutated depending on times that surround them.

That's not to say that there aren't strong cornerstones in each Religion, or that these cornerstones shift every 100 years. Religion is one of the strongest comon threads through generations and generation. But again, it's still a codification (or even interpretation of a code) of existing moral beliefs.
Societies adapt, and so do religions and those who look to convert others.

It does, however, become something of a chicken and egg argument, however, when it does get handed down from generation to generation
And that, in a nutshell, is that.

[#10 Jersey]

Very much chicken and egg, imho. That's actually the reason that "morality" is part of the forum title.

hgold, reading your posts in the Politics forum, I believe you're Jewish (and excuse me if I'm off-base here). Couldn't one consider Moses receiving the Ten Commandments on Mt. Sinai the most obvious link (in the Religions of the Book, at least) between Religion and Morality?

Yes Christopher, I am Jewish.

I believe that the Torah and the way that the people accepted and integrated Torah into their lives in an important step to towards the development of our moral code.

[#10 Jersey]

It's not a chicken and egg argument. Morals came first. Morality can exist outside religion. Nowadays, religion attempts to monopolize the field, but morals don't come from religion any more than the world was built in six days. This is a Western monotheistic theocratic conceit, nothing more.

Now, having morality subjects discussed here makes more sense than putting it in MLS Expansion, sure, but Religion, Spirituality and Morality aren't identical any more than Books, Television and Music.

Dan:

Can you explain why you believe morals came first?

[DoctorJones24]

I'm not sure he's correct about morality coming first, but overall, Dan's point is correct. Morality and relgion developed separately. Religion began as a way to explain unknowns--death, nature, the cosmos, etc.

Morality developed out of communal groups needing to work out practical guidelines for keeping the group alive and flourishing.

[Calexico77]

Yes Christopher, I am Jewish.

I believe that the Torah and the way that the people accepted and integrated Torah into their lives in an important step to towards the development of our moral code.


Right, but the Torah didn't write itself.

[#10 Jersey]

Right, but the Torah didn't write itself.

Your point?

[#10 Jersey]

I'm not sure he's correct about morality coming first, but overall, Dan's point is correct. Morality and relgion developed separately. Religion began as a way to explain unknowns--death, nature, the cosmos, etc.

Morality developed out of communal groups needing to work out practical guidelines for keeping the group alive and flourishing.

Of course your answer assumes that the events at Mt. Sinai didn't occur at all. One who believes that they did or that something occurred at Sinai that affected a people would argue that it was precisely a moral code that was accepted.

[DoctorJones24]

Of course your answer assumes that the events at Mt. Sinai didn't occur at all. One who believes that they did or that something occurred at Sinai that affected a people would argue that it was precisely a moral code that was accepted.

No, my answer is about religion in general, not about a particular faith (or even the monotheisms collectively). Surely, you're not arguing that there was no such thing as morality before the 10 Commandments, are you? Or no such thing as religion?

[Dan Loney]

Of course your answer assumes that the events at Mt. Sinai didn't occur at all. One who believes that they did or that something occurred at Sinai that affected a people would argue that it was precisely a moral code that was accepted.Or, one would conclude that the writers of the Torah decided that they needed a hook.

I've posted this before, but what's the point of Abraham sacrificing Isaac? To beat the lesson in that religious bonds trump family loyalties. This was contrary to pretty much everything anyone would have been raised with since coming down from the trees. But it's hard to manage a nation with all these clans getting in the way. The state, after all, must have a monopoly on violence. So in order to promote the authority of the state, the divine was invoked. And how important was divine morality? Well, God can EVEN ASK FOR A FATHER TO KILL HIS OWN SON. And that would be MORAL.

Or at least, approved by God - and that's the same thing, isn't it?

[Dead Fingers]

Can we assume that communities of people came before religion? How did these people live together before religion?

[bigredfutbol]

Morality is a system of ideas of right and wrong conduct, or the quality of being in accord with standards of right and wrong conduct. That's all it means. Every community has it's own standards--they may be codified, they may be implicit and unspoken; the community might believe that their moral code was divinely inspired/composed, or they might decide to deliberately create their own.

That's all it means.

[DoctorJones24]

Can we assume that communities of people came before religion? How did these people live together before religion?

I'm not following you...

[#10 Jersey]

Or, one would conclude that the writers of the Torah decided that they needed a hook.

I've posted this before, but what's the point of Abraham sacrificing Isaac? To beat the lesson in that religious bonds trump family loyalties. This was contrary to pretty much everything anyone would have been raised with since coming down from the trees. But it's hard to manage a nation with all these clans getting in the way. The state, after all, must have a monopoly on violence. So in order to promote the authority of the state, the divine was invoked. And how important was divine morality? Well, God can EVEN ASK FOR A FATHER TO KILL HIS OWN SON. And that would be MORAL.

Or at least, approved by God - and that's the same thing, isn't it?

But everything you've written is speculation.

If there was indeed a conspiracy, there are many ideas and statements in the hebrew bible that would never be made. Statements that with the passage of time could be seen as false.

In addition, if you were trying to rope people into a religion, would you make it as hard as possible to follow or easy as possible. Surely, Judaism was and is not an easy religion to follow if you are going to live up to 613 commandments.

[#10 Jersey]

No, my answer is about religion in general, not about a particular faith (or even the monotheisms collectively). Surely, you're not arguing that there was no such thing as morality before the 10 Commandments, are you? Or no such thing as religion?

It would be silly to believe that people didn't have values before the giving of the 10 commandments. The question is, what kind of values, were they consistent within the community, among communities and over time.

I would argue that the sanctity of human life, the value of education for EVERYONE, not just the privileged class, the emphasis on family, peace as the ideal state, justice and equality, were values that got their push from the Hebrew bible and its followers. Certainly there were others that probably believed in these concepts, but the bible put together a concrete system for living one's life in according with these tenets.

It did not promote killing babies as a process of selection. It did not promote killing humans as sport. It did not promote education for the select few. Many of the civilizations we call "advanced" did in fact do these things.

[bigredfutbol]

It would be silly to believe that people didn't have values before the giving of the 10 commandments. The question is, what kind of values, were they consistent within the community, among communities and over time.

I would argue that the sanctity of human life, the value of education for EVERYONE, not just the privileged class, the emphasis on family, peace as the ideal state, justice and equality, were values that got their push from the Hebrew bible and its followers. Certainly there were others that probably believed in these concepts, but the bible put together a concrete system for living one's life in according with these tenets.

It did not promote killing babies as a process of selection. It did not promote killing humans as sport. It did not promote education for the select few. Many of the civilizations we call "advanced" did in fact do these things.

But the Hebrew Bible also promoted the 'morality' of killing entire groups of people, for example. The monotheistic faiths introduced a new concept to the world--religious intolerance, a concept completely foreign to pagans and polytheists.