Realistic all-time xi ?

[Dark Savante]

I'm sure nearly everyone on this site can make an all-time xi team. It's usually just a dump of the xi best players who people think ever played and can be thrown into each slot on the pitch - I'm as guilty of doing that as anyone else - in reality, apart from the anomaly that was the Brazil 1970 team, you have only one playmaker orchestrating his team you have only 1player who the ball is played through time and again with the other players, no matter how brilliant at their particular job, will defer to as the playmaker.

For example A commonly used all time 4man midfield + 2attackers can look something like this give or take a man:

-------------Beckenbauer
--Garrincha---------------Cruyff
-----------Maradona/Di Stefano
----------------------Pele
--------Puskas/Muller/Ronaldo/VanBasten/Eusebio

In fact, something like this is what I have seen most since being on BS. Look at the 5men behind the striker. Each and every one of them was the absolute playmaker in-chief of his team and was used to having the ball for the majority of attacks. Only the two Brazilians ever had to compromise (Garrincha '58 compared to him taking the reigns in '62 and Pele as part of the 5x10's in 1970) The others, all of whom I think it's safe to say had more forceful personalities on the pitch, never deferred to anyone. We would hope that intelligence and compromise would mean our fantasy teams would work, but I'd think such strong personalities would rather choke on their own blood then defer to someone else, not to mention that the more touches of the ball a player gets is the more in tune with that game he will become - there is evidence of this for each playmaker - consider Maradona's goal(s) against England or Belgium in '86 or Di Stefano's growing presence in the EC final vs Eintracht or Pele's showing in the '70 final etc, etc

Apart from the draft of drafts where the simple fact that each team took a playmaker of all-time repute forced each team of drafters to think 'sensibly' and within realistic parameters, there hasn't been an all-time thread on here in my time where an xi has had to be made that had the restriction of realism thrown in. After all, fantasy xi's are just that, fantasy, an exercise in fanciful thinking and idealism, we never have to worry about them working or prove to anyone else that they would function because these teams will never be compiled and placed on a pitch together.


The idea with this thread is for people to put together an all-time xi that looks like it can work within realistic circumstances and not have more than 1 or 2 playmakers in it. This exercise may take the fun out of a fantasy xi for some people, it may also encourage some activity on a subject that has been done to death by making people think about making a functioning attack* rather than a dump of incredibly talented individuals mish-mashed together. :)

*I mention attack because people rarely make the mistake of say, putting 3 right backs across the defensive line or two sweepers together as centre-backs...somehow we all see that wouldn't work, but give the attacking part of a team 'creative licence' (a **************** pass) :)

So who's up for this? Trying to devise an all-time xi that actually looks like it can function and needs no fantasy for any of us to imagine it working smoothly?1 playmaker is sensible, 2 is pushing it (but can often be seen as one midfield maestro and a support striker with playmaking talent combine) and 3 is going off into the realms of make believe (let's not mention 5x10's eh? :p)

[Sempre]

I am up for this. ('Up' is the new 'down'--I am 'down' now
being retro. Ahem.)

So here is my idea. 'Keeper, two full-backs, two CBs, one
defensive midfielder, two central midfielders, one play-maker,
one support striker, one center forward. That is a perfectly
modern, if wingless, team.

Thus:

------------Muller--------------
-----Maradona-------------
--------------Pele-------------
---------Varela, Charlton---------
-----------Beckenbauer----------
-Maldini-----------------Thuram--
----------Baresi, Moore----------
-------------Yashin--------------

Baresi as a straight CB, Beckenbauer as a deep-lying mid
with freedom to push forward.

[Kaushik]

I am up for this. ('Up' is the new 'down'--I am 'down' now
being retro. Ahem.)

So here is my idea. 'Keeper, two full-backs, two CBs, one
defensive midfielder, two central midfielders, one play-maker,
one support striker, one center forward. That is a perfectly
modern, if wingless, team.

Thus:

------------Muller--------------
-----Maradona-------------
--------------Pele-------------
---------Varela, Charlton---------
-----------Beckenbauer----------
-Maldini-----------------Thuram--
----------Baresi, Moore----------
-------------Yashin--------------

Baresi as a straight CB, Beckenbauer as a deep-lying mid
with freedom to push forward.
Maradona as a support striker?

I am going to go with a striking duo that actually worked fantastically.
Wingbacks to help out in attack constantly...therefore, Cafu over Djalma Santos . Nilton Santos fans can sub him in place of RC, but I prefer RC obviously. Maradona is just too good to not have him in the team, although Ronaldinho would have been just fine, esp., since he could work down the wing. Okay, before anyone objects to Ronaldinho being possibly chosen over others, I would like to state that he is, at his best, as good as and if not better than any X, Y, Z one can put forward.

-------Ronaldo----------------Romario--------
------Maradona-----------------Pele----------
-R Carlos-----Didi-----Beckenbauer-----Cafu---
------------Maldini------Baresi----------------
--------------------Zoff----------------------

[Dark Savante]

I hate to be the bearer of bad news to you guys :)

But, I'd say

Sempre, Becks, Maradona & Pele is 3 playmakers in one team, but I suppose with Pele as proven, he could function in any multi-playmaker set-up so I suppose you could get a pass there :p Nice team btw!

Kaushik, this one is a little more clear-cut. Didi was most definitely a playmaker, so much so that one of the reasons Di Stefano didn't want him at RM with him was because he'd be interferring with 'his' team and highly likely to reduce Di Stefano's time on the ball if he was allowed to function in the same team. Having Becks, Didi and Maradona (Pele gets a free pass as he has 5x10's as evidence that he can function with xx amount of playmakers alongside him) together in midfield could prove troublesome - I don't think all 3 could be optimised as all 3 were playmakers who were used to having the most touches of the ball on their teams. What do other people think?

[Football Ronin]

------------Zoff------------
Scirea-Baresi-Beckenbauer-Maldini
Garrincha--Platini--Keane--Best
------Van Basten-Pele------





_

[Spartak]

OK, here goes:

-----------------Muller---------------Eusebio
------------------------Maradona
---------Neeskens--------------------Rijkaard
Maldini-----------------------------------------D. Santos
------------Facchetti---------------Moore
-----------------------Beckenbauer
--------------------------Zoff

Only one true playmaker in this bunch. Beckenbauer will be the libero in my team and not the playmaker he was earlier in his career. My theory is if Maradona can take his Argentina '86 and Napoli squads to success he sure as hell could lead this team to success.

[Dark Savante]

OK, here goes:

-----------------Muller---------------Eusebio
------------------------Maradona
---------Neeskens--------------------Rijkaard
Maldini-----------------------------------------D. Santos
------------Facchetti---------------Moore
-----------------------Beckenbauer
--------------------------Zoff

Only one true playmaker in this bunch. Beckenbauer will be the libero in my team and not the playmaker he was earlier in his career. My theory is if Maradona can take his Argentina '86 and Napoli squads to success he sure as hell could lead this team to success.
You can safely say that if that team scores 1st, the game is over! :)

[Bertje]

-----------------------------Schmeichel-----------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------------
--------Vogts-----------------Koeman---------------Maldini----------
---------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------Rijkaard-------------------------------
--------------Neeskens---------------------Van Hanegem------------
---------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------Cruijff--------------------------------
--Garrincha---------------------------------------------Rensenbrink--
------------------------------Van Basten-----------------------------

Obviously this team is very Dutch, but those are the players I know best and the best Dutch players almost all could be both playmaker and follower at the same time. Van Basten functions purely as a killer who creates his own chances, which he did so well. Garrincha and Rensenbrink feed van Basten and also could score their own goals. Cruijff leads the attacks, he can drop deep to get the ball and just looks for space. In midfield I have Neeskens to do the dirty work, no need for explanation. Van Hanegem is the passer in midfield, but he was also tough as hell. Rijkaard protects the backline and plays the opposing, usually best player, out of the game. Vogts and Maldini both can join the attack but are there in the first place to defend. Koeman does the building up attacks from behind. Schmeichel just was a very reliable goalkeeper.

I was thinking about replacing Van Hanegem with Platini but he would have given less defensive cover.

[Spartak]

Hmm, only one player makes everybody's team so far.

[Kaushik]

Kaushik, this one is a little more clear-cut. Didi was most definitely a playmaker, so much so that one of the reasons Di Stefano didn't want him at RM with him was because he'd be interferring with 'his' team and highly likely to reduce Di Stefano's time on the ball if he was allowed to function in the same team. Having Becks, Didi and Maradona (Pele gets a free pass as he has 5x10's as evidence that he can function with xx amount of playmakers alongside him) together in midfield could prove troublesome - I don't think all 3 could be optimised as all 3 were playmakers who were used to having the most touches of the ball on their teams. What do other people think?Ok, if you say so, I'll replace Didi with Lothar Matthaus. :) He might actually be more complementary to Becks.

-----------------Ronaldo------------Romario---------------
----------------Maradona-------------Pele-----------------
---R Carlos------Matthaus----------Beckenbauer-----Cafu---
------------------Maldini--------------Baresi----------------
-----------------------------Zoff---------------------------

Now I have a Brazil 2006 style team...Can't wait to see how the combine together :p

[Kaushik]

Hmm, only one player makes everybody's team so far.That is because you chose not to select Pele in your team. If you put Pele in place of Eusebio, your team would be very good. ;)

[comme]

Ok

---------------Schmeichel

Dj. Santos -- Baresi -- Gentile -- Maldini

---------------Souness

--------Garrincha--Pele-- Giggs

-----------Ronaldo-- Puskas

Just for effectiveness, this would be an exceptional side. A few choices, Gentile, Souness, Giggs could be questioned but for pure effectiveness and team work it would be a top team.

[Spartak]

That is because you chose not to select Pele in your team. If you put Pele in place of Eusebio, your team would be very good.
Bertje didn't select Pele either so at least I'm not alone. And I'd rather have Eusebio play as a striker in my team. I think he would be better in the box for the stryle I'd play. And I'd also rather not have Pele and Maradona in the same team. They'd probably get in each other's way and end up debating who was the better player all game long ;)

[Kaushik]

Bertje didn't select Pele either so at least I'm not alone. And I'd rather have Eusebio play as a striker in my team. I think he would be better in the box for the stryle I'd play. But you already have Muller to play in the box. I just think Pele would be a better fit since he was as capable as Eusebio in almost anything and more.

[Dark Savante]

Pele is probably the only 'wildcard' or joker who is likely to be picked by the majority as there is evidence that playing alongside other playmakers was not a problem for him. Amongst playmakers he is unique in this respect unless someone takes another playmaker from the Brazil '70 side, which is unlikely when you have Pele available.

It is intereting when there is a trade off - Pele for maradona or vice-versa. I think those teams suggest a style of play that will go absolutely through one player.

If you have two playmakers in a side then there must surely be a level of compromise from both, which must surely mean neither is optimised, no?

---

comme clean out your PM box.

[Spartak]

But you already have Muller to play in the box. I just think Pele would be a better fit since he was as capable as Eusebio in almost anything and more.
Pele wasn't as physical as Eusebio. Plus this will be Maradona's team not Pele's. If I had Pele in Maradona's spot would you still have the same complaints?

[Kaushik]

Pele wasn't as physical as Eusebio. Plus this will be Maradona's team not Pele's. If I had Pele in Maradona's spot would you still have the same complaints?No, I wouldn't have a complaint then. That is because Maradona could not play at Eusebio's spot. However, Pele could and he was better than Eusebio in almost everything.

[Spartak]

No, I wouldn't have a complaint then. That is because Maradona could not play at Eusebio's spot. However, Pele could and he was better than Eusebio in almost everything.
I was sure you wouldn't have a problem if I stuck Pele there ;) The reason I chose Eusebio is because IMO he would score more goals in my formation. I know Pele scored alot of goals in his career. But Eusebio's strike rate was just as good. And I think he was faster and more physical than Pele. He would be the perfect compliment to Muller. I don't fancy a Muller/Pele striker pair. Of course I could just swap Maradona for Pele but then again I'm not Brazilian so I realize that Maradona was better than Pele ;)

[Bertje]

I agree with Spartak Eusebio is a better fit in his team. Pélé, while a fantastic finisher, would be more fit in a more attacking team. Eusebio was also a fantastic finisher but wouldn't need the ball as often as Pélé to be as effective as possible. I have a feeling Spartak wants to play mainly on defense with the ability to just give the ball to Maradona for him to score or create a chance for the finishers Muller and Eusebio.

[Sempre]

Sempre, Becks, Maradona & Pele
is 3 playmakers in one team, but I suppose with Pele as
proven, he could function in any multi-playmaker set-up
so I suppose you could get a pass there :p Nice team btw!

No; in my XI Pele (the cerebral, Brasil 1970 version) is the
play-maker and Maradona will be the support striker. This
need not be obscuring. Maradona used to say that he could
play as a striker with Platini behind him; and I think he could
make it work with Pele.

Beckenbauer is not a play-maker in my scheme. He'll play as
a defensive mid and though he could do some distributing, I
want him to anticipate attacks from the opposition and shield
the central defenders. Not that Baresi and Moore need to be
shielded. ;)