Post Your All-CONCACAF Team Here

[Martin Fischer]

Originally posted by Pirrip
Well I can't speak for Mexico, but the US dresses several MLS players and that League is, in both my opinion (have seen plenty of both) and in the opinion of european scouts (OK, I have only seen 3 quoted) equivalent to the English Second.

Wow that's conclusive. I guess Arena is an idiot for using MLS guys instead of the 16 or so guys playing at levels higher than the 3rd level in big European countries.

Originally posted by Pirrip
I know, this is going to set off the inevitable "is not" arguments, of perhaps the specious "maybe so, but the players we call are better than the MLS and would be with Bayern if only" arguments. Neither of these hold water with me.

Is this even English?

Originally posted by Pirrip
Perhaps the real problem here is that we have essentially a subjective excercise with individuals unwilling to accept subjective arguments. Thus we have the DeVos versus Martinez debate and the Stalteri versus Arellano debate, both being argued using contradictary arguments. Well it seems goofy to me but hey! thats just my opinion.

I guess I am overestimating the comprehension ability on this board. Sure we can all say that I have seen him play and he is better. My only point in this regard is that it would make for a more interesting discussion if the poster explained why he likes DeVos better in comparison to Martinez.

Originally posted by Pirrip
Dismissing DeVos because Martinez plays at a higher club level, then arguing Arellano over Stalteri seems to indicate to me an unwillingness to give merit to opposing points of view.

I think choosing DeVos over Martinez despite (1) that Martinez plays at a much higher level; (2) has played better for his country; and (3) is better technically, tactically and is faster, is a mistaken view. Similarly, I think choosing Staltieri over Arellano when the latter is (1) a better club player, even accounting for the lower level of the Mexican league and (2) a better international player is also misguided. What am I supposed to do, give merit to a view I think is wrong.

Originally posted by Pirrip
The latter starts every day, in a variety of positions for one of the top temas in one of the top leagues in the world. But we certainly can't use that as a guage of anything now can we?

Of course you can. But it is not the only gauge. Get it?


Originally posted by Pirrip
In my opinion, both Stalteri and Radzinski start on any all CONCACAF team. I also like Brennan at left back, but am not wedded to that position.

Well I agree on 1 out of 3 and agree the other two deserve consideration, though I would not choose them. But then again, I am not Canadian.

Originally posted by Pirrip
Really, it seems as if this thread is an All CONCACAF circa 2001 based on national team performance in WC Qualifying argument and leaves no room for the changing fortunes, ability and level of play of individuals, or indeed, any consideration of the level of play at any time. Its a pity.

You seem to have trouble distinguishing between the arguments between where Canada should be rated versus where players should be rated. They are two different things.

The last part is funny as I seem to be the only one who does consider these things. Let me try and help you.

1. Martinez over DeVos. This is based on my observation of these players and the fact that Martinez has a much more difficult challenge in Serie A. In my opinion, this is not overcome by the fact that DeVos appears to be a more influential player at his lower level. I assume you know that Martinez was not in Serie A in 2001.

2. Arrellano over Staltieri. In addition to the fact that Arrellano has shown me more in international competition, recently. It is also based on the fact that Arrellano's club play in the past Mexican league impressed me much more than Staltieri's holding role play for Bremen, based on games this year. This is my opinion even compensating for the higher level of the Bundesliga.

Because this is potentially a good thread if a few minds can open up a bit. [/B][/QUOTE]

That's rich! I don't have an open mind even though I, as an American, am arguing that a Costa Rican and a Mexican are better than someone else thinks. Clearly that is not as open as arguing slavishly for your own countrymen.

[sidspaceman]

Hey guys this is a good thread and I would hate to close it so let's get it back to the discussion at hand and cut out the attacks.

[LMvCP]

Originally posted by bluedaddy19
jeez, why dont you two get a room?!?


and for rdl, 'Very few players in the world can do what (arellano) does' ?!?!?!?!?!?!?

riiiiiiiiiiiiiiight - i got news for ya: any big european, argentinian or brazilian team has 3 guys who can do what arellano does - hell, arsenal has about 6 or 7 - get real man, hes a heck of a player, but dozens of the world's outside midfielders are as good or better (including

there are alot of good wings in soccer today, but not too many of them are complete. Even some of the best ones are not effective when they play on the opposite side or have to use the other foot. They have to reposition their bodies to get a center off or shoot for that matter. how many times have you seen a player miss an open shot because the ball is not on his natural side? That is why players like roberto carlos, riquelme, arellano are so dangerous.. the are complete. they can play various postions with effectiveness. they can control the ball with both feet. The fact that Arellano has never had any aspirations to play for a big european club does not take away his talent. He has proven himself at international tournaments.

I am not saying he is the best... but he is one of the best and would be an asset to any team.

[Martin Fischer]

Originally posted by sidspaceman
Hey guys this is a good thread and I would hate to close it so let's get it back to the discussion at hand and cut out the attacks.

What attacks?

[sidspaceman]

Originally posted by Martin Fischer
Actually, personal attacks are not appropriate. Focus on what I said, not my characteristics.





Weren't you the one complaining about personal attacks?

[Martin Cutler]

Originally posted by Various Styles
-----------------(1) Brad Friedel

----(2) Pope--(4) Marquez--(3) Martinez--

-(5) Torrado-----------------------(6) O'Brian

----(7) Arellano--(8) Reyna--(11) Morales------

--------(9)--Donovan----(10)--Blanco------

I'd go with this same Best XI too. My reserves would be:

1) Oscar Perez
2) Manuel Vidrio
4) Samuel Caballero
3) Mauricio Wright
5) Pablo Mastroeni
6) Jose Luis Pineda
7) Rolando Fonseca
8) Amado Guevara
11)Julio Cesar Leon
9) Paulo Wanchope
10)Clint Mathis

Just missing the cut: Kasey Keller, Reynaldo Parks, Ian Goodison, Ricardo Gardener, Carlos Castro, Walter Centeno, Paul Staltieri, Earnie Stewart, Jared Borgetti, Francisco Palencia, Stern John

[Martin Fischer]

Originally posted by sidspaceman
Weren't you the one complaining about personal attacks?

That's not fair, using my own words.

OK, I was whining too much.

[Martin Fischer]

Originally posted by Martin Cutler
I'd go with this same Best XI too. My reserves would be:

1) Oscar Perez
2) Manuel Vidrio
4) Samuel Caballero
3) Mauricio Wright
5) Pablo Mastroeni
6) Jose Luis Pineda
7) Rolando Fonseca
8) Amado Guevara
11)Julio Cesar Leon
9) Paulo Wanchope
10)Clint Mathis

Just missing the cut: Kasey Keller, Reynaldo Parks, Ian Goodison, Ricardo Gardener, Carlos Castro, Walter Centeno, Paul Staltieri, Earnie Stewart, Jared Borgetti, Francisco Palencia, Stern John

Great call on Leon and Guevara. I think Pineda is a little overrated by you.

On the negative side, I think it is a little unfair not to include Radzinski at all on the list given his club form this year in one of the top leagues in the world.

I can't see Blanco in the top XI because of his abysmal club form for the part of the year he was in Spain. It can't be all about international ball.

And Wanchope has not been decent in club ball for quite a while. A decent World Cup doesn't overcome that IMHO.

Finally, Oscar Perez over Kasey Keller just can't be. While Keller didn't play at the World Cup, he does start for a top half team in one of the world's best leagues. Perez cost his team a playoff game this year and was mediocre in the World Cup.

[hobbes]

Geez, look what I started? Who knew.

I'd apologize, but I have a sneeking suspicion that you both are enjoying this too much. :)

Actually it made great reading and I rather enjoyed seeing you both hit it off. Martin> did you watch the Scotland v Canada game? With the exception of some amazingly amateurish defending, I thought we played an attractive game and showed a lot of promise especially when a lot of our undoing seemed to be lack of cohesion.

As for the player debates. I'm a big Martinez fan. I think he's the best defender in TFC (here come the Marquez fans). That being said I also picked McBride for many of the same reasons Cp'n canuck picked DeVos. I like having a target man and from my personal bias in the way I would like my team to play McBride makes a lot of sense. I also think Blanco brings an extra something to the table that very few other players provide.

As for the original comment, yeah it's sacrilege to pick Arellano over Stalteri, but I like Arellano and think with a solid back three you can afford to have two outside backs (Arellano and Morales) who can push forward well and are dangerous.

cheers,
hobbes

[Pirrip]

Originally posted by Martin Fischer
Wow that's conclusive. I guess Arena is an idiot for using MLS guys instead of the 16 or so guys playing at levels higher than the 3rd level in big European countries.


Please enlighten me as to who these might be. I know from your excellent CONCACAF Abroad thread that there are 20 Americans playing at this level and above and also that there were more than 4 European based players on the USNT in the World Cup. Did they all retire? I mean, there was Casey in the Bund2. Cherundolo was an injury replacement so I'll give you him as well. There was also Russell in Norway. But I would argue that Arena was an idiot picking Regis and Hedjuk over him but that is a matter of opion I suppose. You had two EPL keepers so any keepers really can't be counted, especially because I think Arena was an idiot to take Meola over many of the young MLS keepers even. But in any event, I look forward to your list.

Originally posted by Martin Fischer


I guess I am overestimating the comprehension ability on this board. Sure we can all say that I have seen him play and he is better. My only point in this regard is that it would make for a more interesting discussion if the poster explained why he likes DeVos better in comparison to Martinez.

He did actually for which you dismissed him as a homer. I might also point out that he did so in the context of a 4-4-2 where DeVos' strengths would be maximized and his weakness minimized and he described how so, that is, with Marquez as a sweeper. Your response to a perfectly reasonable justification was to suggest Captain Canuck made the selection because he was a homer. Obvious conclusion, no explanantion will be sufficient for you and therefore it is only reasonable for me to assume a closed mind on your part.

Originally posted by Martin Fischer

I think choosing DeVos over Martinez despite (1) that Martinez plays at a much higher level; (2) has played better for his country; and (3) is better technically, tactically and is faster, is a mistaken view. Similarly, I think choosing Staltieri over Arellano when the latter is (1) a better club player, even accounting for the lower level of the Mexican league and (2) a better international player is also misguided. What am I supposed to do, give merit to a view I think is wrong.


No, you are accept his opinion as reasonable despite the fact that you disagree since it was reasonably given. I disagree with your assessment of Arelano over Stalteri, for example, but that is based on only a handful of games in the past year. I don't see him enough. I also disagree with your assessment of Stalteri, but that may be because I follow him more closely and have many more opportunities to see him play. He has improved tremendously over the past 3 years, and indeed, I would suggest that this year has been a breakout for him. On my all CONCACAF team I would lay him as an inside right in a 3-5-2 (with Reyna as inside left). I also disagree completely with the statement that Martinez has played better for his country and is tactically and technically better. He is indeed faster however. You seem to be confusing team tactics with individual tactics and technical skills only with your preferred style of play and without regard for position. For a Central Defender De Vos is more skilled in my opinion and is tactically more skilled. De Vos is stronger in the air, reads the game exceptionally well and positions himself better than Martinez. He also makes safer more conservative decisions which is what you want from a Central Defender. He will always be slower, but he is smart enough to compensate for that lack. But there is no way I would start him on the outside ahead of Martinez, or any number of CONCACAF defenders, in a 3-5-2. He can pass the ball well, and can start a counter attack of a goal kick with a well times/placed header. On the other hand, he is unlikely to hit a forward in full stride with a 30 yard pass as consistently as Martinez might. And did I mention De Vos was slow? De Vos can play a possession game but that is not currently Canada's preferred style. De Vos doesn't start ahead of Marquez in any formation but Martinez, yeah, I can see scenario's where he does. Now of course, I have not seen Martinez play as often as De Vos, but nor have you seen De Vos play as often as Martinez I suspect so that is a wash.

Originally posted by Martin Fischer

Of course you can. But it is not the only gauge. Get it?


No, nor should it be. It was offered by Captain Canuck in support of his opinion that Stalteri should start ahead of Arrellano. He also stated that his opinion was based on his observation of the play of both. Apparently both arguments are only valid when you make them Martin. Look back over the posts, and to help, let me include a quote of yours "you do know that Martinez starts in Serie A not in the English 2nd Division." Why is it fine for you to offer this argument, support by your own observation in latter posts but not for anyone of Canadian origin?


Originally posted by Martin Fischer

Well I agree on 1 out of 3 and agree the other two deserve consideration, though I would not choose them. But then again, I am not Canadian.


No, apparently you are the be all and end all of soccer knowledge and anyone who posts opinions contrary are doing so based only on national origin. Odd isn't it that a degree of difference that involves nothing more than a difference of opinion over who belongs on the second team can cause you to accuse me, and others, of blind nationalism. Indeed, CC warrants this criticism even when e identifies a very specific circumstances in which he disagrees (CC's example with DeVos)

Originally posted by Martin Fischer

You seem to have trouble distinguishing between the arguments between where Canada should be rated versus where players should be rated. They are two different things.


Indeed they are. I was referencing this post generally to the thread as a whole. You seem to have taken all of it specifically to heart. Read the thread, look at the teams that have been selected, and the arguments made and tell me that this has not been happening. And if in your opinion, it is not, then I will retract the statement. It was not directed at your debate with CC, it was directed at the numerous Am-Mex allstar teams posted in the thread which can only lead me to the conclusion that the teams are based on the 2001 Hex. But do read your post about not accepting an entire line of the 7th best team in CONCACAF. No evaluation of the strengths of players, just the position of the team. It was, BTW, a foolish suggestion, but so was taking the entire American midfield. I note that you didn't seem to find fault with that.

Originally posted by Martin Fischer

The last part is funny as I seem to be the only one who does consider these things. Let me try and help you.

1. Martinez over DeVos. This is based on my observation of these players and the fact that Martinez has a much more difficult challenge in Serie A. In my opinion, this is not overcome by the fact that DeVos appears to be a more influential player at his lower level. I assume you know that Martinez was not in Serie A in 2001.


You have dismissed as bias a suggestion that DeVos start in a 4-4-2 ahead of Martinez. The argument you objected to was reasonably given. You may have a different opinion. But that is all it is, different. Not more valid, not more reasonable, just different. Let me just jog you memory on the quote that so offended you - and remember it was given specific to a 4-4-2 alignment "As a tall imposing Central Defender who is physical in the air and can also score off set pieces I don't think there is anyone in CONCACAF better. Other player are stronger in other facets..." he then goes on to suggest that Marquez would be playing sweeper to offset the limitations in DeVos' game. And you, Martin, dismissed this as the opinion of a homer. So, I will repeat, and this time I am directing it at you specifically, open up your mind and stop ascribing motives that are not there. You have done so with CC and you have done so with me as I point out above.

Originally posted by Martin Fischer


2. Arrellano over Staltieri. In addition to the fact that Arrellano has shown me more in international competition, recently. It is also based on the fact that Arrellano's club play in the past Mexican league impressed me much more than Staltieri's holding role play for Bremen, based on games this year. This is my opinion even compensating for the higher level of the Bundesliga.


Fair enough. But a contrary opinion does not make me, or Captain Canuck, or anyone else for that matter, a homer. I think you are wrong, but I have not seen that much of Arrellano. Captain Canuck makes the argument that Stalteri is a better player based on what he has seen and that Stalteri plays at a higher level. You have dismissed this, even though it is the same as your argument in favour of Martinez over De Vos.

Originally posted by Martin Fischer


That's rich! I don't have an open mind even though I, as an American, am arguing that a Costa Rican and a Mexican are better than someone else thinks. Clearly that is not as open as arguing slavishly for your own countrymen.

I am not suggestion that your closed mind is a product of nationality, I am suggesting it is a product of your ego. You are ascribing motives to Captain Canuck simply because of his location and because they are contrary to your own. It is not an unreasonable argument to suggest that Stalteri is better than Arrellano just as it is not an unreasonable opinion to suggest that in a 4-4-2 De Vos is a better asset than Martinez. What is unreasonable is to dismiss someone's arguments when you are making identical arguments for another player.

Note that nobody from Canada has taken you to task for being a homer over any of your selections. I could, BTW, argue some of your american selections for what seem to me to be very good reasons. But it would be an unreasonable assumption on my part to suggest your selections were based on natioanl bias. They are decent players in their own right, just not good enough, In my opinion to make an all CONCACAF team.

[Captain Canuck]

Originally posted by Martin Fischer
Actually, personal attacks are not appropriate. Focus on what I said, not my characteristics.

OK, fine it's subjective. I just think you ought to compare the two players if you are going to make a comparison. For me, Martinez is faster and has better ball skills, in addition to superior tactical ability from playing in Italy, which are more important than DeVos' strength. I also don't think that it is helpful to say that DeVos is better suited to the English game in arguing he should be on the all CONCACAF team.

You lost me again. What does being a know-it-all have to do with being a homer? It is true that we may not be as smart as we think, but it makes for a more interesting discussion than just saying I don't know.



Re: Personal attacks, I'm just responding in kind to your "I'm sorry if my simple point is confusing" comment. Glass houses & all that.

I didn't want to compare De Vos & Martinez at all - it was you that first brought up the comparison. Comparing the two is like chalk & cheese - they both bring a different skill set. I don't think there is any question that Martinez is more skillful on the ball & quicker, De Vos is stronger & more dominant in the air. I have Marquez ranked above Martinez for that type of defender as he's impressed me more - I also think he's stronger in the air than Martinez. I think De Vos & Marquez or De Vos & Martinez is a better pairing that Marquez & Martinez, because De Vos excels in certain aspects that the other two don't & vice versa.

The answer to your other question is already contained in previous posts. If you are that concerned about me "wasting our time" (another glass house comment IMO) I won't bother to repeat them. Oh & I don't recall ever saying "I don't know" in this thread.

Well this has been fun Martin, but if you'll excuse me I have a plane to Fort Lauderdale to catch. No offense, ok?

[Captain Canuck]

Originally posted by Pirrip



He did actually for which you dismissed him as a homer. I might also point out that he did so in the context of a 4-4-2 where DeVos' strengths would be maximized and his weakness minimized and he described how so, that is, with Marquez as a sweeper. Your response to a perfectly reasonable justification was to suggest Captain Canuck made the selection because he was a homer. Obvious conclusion, no explanantion will be sufficient for you and therefore it is only reasonable for me to assume a closed mind on your part.



. You may have a different opinion. But that is all it is, different. Not more valid, not more reasonable, just different. Let me just jog you memory on the quote that so offended you - and remember it was given specific to a 4-4-2 alignment "As a tall imposing Central Defender who is physical in the air and can also score off set pieces I don't think there is anyone in CONCACAF better. Other player are stronger in other facets..." he then goes on to suggest that Marquez would be playing sweeper to offset the limitations in DeVos' game. And you, Martin, dismissed this as the opinion of a homer. So, I will repeat, and this time I am directing it at you specifically, open up your mind and stop ascribing motives that are not there. You have done so with CC and you have done so with me as I point out above.


.

Thanks Pirrip for taking the time to explain my own position & concerns with Martin's replies better than I was able to, I appreciate it. If I had spent this much time in a post I think I would miss that plane. :)

Actually, I don't know if I ever stated that Stalteri is better than Arrellano, its the idea that Arrellano is much better than Stalteri that I have a concern with.

And to reiterate Martin, don't sweat it. Hobbes was right, it has been fun. :)

[hobbes]

Have fun Cp'n and if the bus outside the hotel doesn't say CANADIAN NATIONAL 'C' TEAM I want to know why.

:)

cheers,
hobbes

[footfetish]

hey canadians, chill. martin dropped it.

how are the canadian youth teams? i know they recently defeated the us u-21s in a tournament.

[Rafael Hernandez]

Originally posted by Martin Fischer
Great call on Leon and Guevara. I think Pineda is a little overrated by you.

Finally, Oscar Perez over Kasey Keller just can't be. While Keller didn't play at the World Cup, he does start for a top half team in one of the world's best leagues. Perez cost his team a playoff game this year and was mediocre in the World Cup.

Perez may had not been outstanding but he wasn't mediocre in the WC. He got the job done and was key against Croacia. People are still on with him because of me picking his in SAG as Concacaf player of the year in 2001.

As for thinking that Blanco and Wanchope aren't deserving but Amado Guevara, who was just a year ago in Zacatepec (mexican 2nd division) and blowing chunks there, I think you are the one overrating people.

[Martin Cutler]

Originally posted by Martin Fischer
Great call on Leon and Guevara. I think Pineda is a little overrated by you.

On the negative side, I think it is a little unfair not to include Radzinski at all on the list given his club form this year in one of the top leagues in the world.

I can't see Blanco in the top XI because of his abysmal club form for the part of the year he was in Spain. It can't be all about international ball.

And Wanchope has not been decent in club ball for quite a while. A decent World Cup doesn't overcome that IMHO.

Finally, Oscar Perez over Kasey Keller just can't be. While Keller didn't play at the World Cup, he does start for a top half team in one of the world's best leagues. Perez cost his team a playoff game this year and was mediocre in the World Cup.

Frankly i couldn't think of any other defensive midfielders to name on my second team. I guess I could have named Chris Armas but he's been out injured for most of the past year and Mauricio Solis was the only other realistic alternative. I decided Pineda was more deserving.

Blanco deserves a first team spot. He wasn't fit for the first half of the year but recovered to have a good World Cup and played well for his club in the 2nd part of the year. I considered Radzinski and he is a good forward but there are so many other good candidates who also weren't even listed by me either such as Pavon, Nunez, Suazo, Winston Parks, Mc Bride. The trouble with such teams is you're always going to leave someone out.

As for goalkeepers, yes if i was choosing a team I'd pick Keller over Perez but El Conejo is a good keeper and he played well in the World Cup and during Cruz Azul's route to the Copa Libertadores. Since Keller didn't play in the World Cup I decided to be a bit egalitarian and select Perez over him.

But except for Blanco all of these players you questioned are on my second team, the top XI I think practically picks itself.

Oh and Rafael, Amado Guevara had a great second half of the year, he was voted Costa Rican league player of the year. MLS made a big mistake in not offering him enough money to play in the US this upcoming season.

[Martin Fischer]

Originally posted by hobbes
Geez, look what I started? Who knew.

I'd apologize, but I have a sneeking suspicion that you both are enjoying this too much. :)

Actually it made great reading and I rather enjoyed seeing you both hit it off. Martin> did you watch the Scotland v Canada game? With the exception of some amazingly amateurish defending, I thought we played an attractive game and showed a lot of promise especially when a lot of our undoing seemed to be lack of cohesion.

...

cheers,
hobbes

Mea Culpa Hobbes. I look forward to seeing this new Canada team sometime -- unfortunately it won't be this weekend.

As to Pirip, thanks for finally making an argument why DeVos is better than Martinez. I still think it is wrong, but at least it makes sense.

As for the use of the word "homer," this is is an emotionally charged word I wish I had not used. For the number of reasons I have stated, I have to conlcude that you guys are biased in some of your calls. That remains my evaluation.

And I remain happy to discuss which of my US picks are the product of bias. Before you accuse me of bias you ought to consider that I included more Mexicans than US players despite the fact that our team outperformed them. Hardly an indication of bias.

RAFAEL: I only argue that Blanco should not be on the first team, not that he deserves no credit. A little perspective please, though I have no problem with your opinion that I am overrating Guevara.

[Crazy_Yank]

Originally posted by Various Styles
-----------------(1) Brad Friedel

----(2) Pope--(4) Marquez--(3) Martinez--

-(5) Torrado-----------------------(6) O'Brian

----(7) Arellano--(8) Reyna--(11) Morales------

--------(9)--Donovan----(10)--Blanco------


This is basically the same team I'd choose as well. Maybe switch Radzinski for Donovon though.

[Crazy_Yank]

Originally posted by Martin Fischer

As for reflecting the current strength of the squad, why is Canada better than 7th. On the strength of their 3-0 drubbing by a horrid Scotland team?

When I look at Canada, I see a team with some talent but huge logistical problems and problamatic coaching.



I am certainly not a "Canadian apologist", but I want to address the above points. You can't judge a team on one result. Yes, Canada played a poor 2nd half against Scotland, but they dominated the 1st off using their 2nd string side against Scotland's best. I have seen Canada play since their qualifying debacle and they are a much better team. Unfortunatly for them their "young guns" were too young to be effective back in 2000. Did you notice Canada's 3-0 thrashing of Switzerland in their own house? True Switzerland is not a power, but Canada still beat a European team on European soil. As far as your 2nd point is concerned I think you hit the nail on the head. Their coaching and federation are horrible. Possibly the worst in concacaf.

[Canadian_Supporter]

Originally posted by Crazy_Yank
Their coaching and federation are horrible. Possibly the worst in concacaf.

Holger is better then Bobby, but by how much?

Yes... we do have the worst federation in concacaf.