Can someone explain UK work permit laws?

[fútbolfan2003]

Spain, Italy and Germany's leagues seem to have a lot of latin american talent on their teams, but UK teams don't except for a few exceptions like Heinze, Gilberto, Crespo, Borgetti, etc. Is this because the UK has more restrictive laws for overseas players going to the premier league? and how does the whole work permit system work?

[Jabinho]

It's all explained here at this UK gov' site..
If an application is rejected, the team may appeal to a special panel on Football with the Home Office..

http://www.workingintheuk.gov.uk/working_in_the_uk/en/homepage/work_permits/applying_for_a_work/sports_and_ents/criteria/football.html?

Players from other European Union nations have the same employment rights as British citizens and don't need to go through this..

[Teso Dos Bichos]

The British system is a complete joke that puts our clubs at a competitive disadvantage to our continental rivals. What it does do is make the achievements of our clubs in Europe even more impressive.

[superdave]

The British system is a complete joke that puts our clubs at a competitive disadvantage to our continental rivals. What it does do is make the achievements of our clubs in Europe even more impressive.
??? In what way is it a disadvantage? OK, for teams who aren't in the top 10 for revenue, yeah, but those clubs are rarely in Europe. The British system allows a team to have an unlimited number of non-EU players. If Roman Abramovich wanted to go really crazy, he could literally assemble the best player in the world at every position. A Spanish team couldn't do that, so long as ?4? of those players are non-EU.

What the British system does is benefit the richest teams, and hinder everyone else. Which HELPS them in Europe.

[Teso Dos Bichos]

Man Utd have the likes of Dong Fangzhuo and others with great potential stuck at feeder clubs because the restrictive work permit rules prevent us from bringing them over. That means we lose the best time to develop them and it also rules out us moving for the cream of the non-EU talent, as clubs from Spain (etc) can bring them in immediately, offer them a greater chance of development and eventual game time. Therefore UK clubs are at a distinct disadvantage to our continental rivals. Just look at the great clubs across history and contrast the number of foreign players between the European and UK clubs...

[superdave]

Man Utd have the likes of Dong Fangzhuo and others with great potential stuck at feeder clubs because the restrictive work permit rules prevent us from bringing them over. That means we lose the best time to develop them and it also rules out us moving for the cream of the non-EU talent, as clubs from Spain (etc) can bring them in immediately, offer them a greater chance of development and eventual game time. Therefore UK clubs are at a distinct disadvantage to our continental rivals. Just look at the great clubs across history and contrast the number of foreign players between the European and UK clubs...
Let's not talk about the great clubs across history, let's talk about now.

Anyway, it's obvious bull to say it's a disadvantage. Again, there's nothing to stop an English team from acquiring the best 11 players in the world. There IS something preventing a German team from doing so. It's not even an argument.

[Matt Clark]

it also rules out us moving for the cream of the non-EU talent, as clubs from Spain (etc) can bring them in immediately, offer them a greater chance of development and eventual game time.

Err ... what?

UK: no limits on foreign players in any game eleven.
Spain etc: limits of three or four players.

Talk sense, son.

[fútbolfan2003]

Let's not talk about the great clubs across history, let's talk about now.

Anyway, it's obvious bull to say it's a disadvantage. Again, there's nothing to stop an English team from acquiring the best 11 players in the world. There IS something preventing a German team from doing so. It's not even an argument.

I might be wrong here, but if English teams are able to assemble the best 11 players from around the world, they sure ignore the talent from latin america. Spanish and italian teams are full of brazilians, uruguayans, and argentines, while I think the most brazilians on any english team are 2 - doriva and rochemback in Middlesbrough, and those aren't even the best Brazilians out there. My point isn't that you are wrong its just that I'd like to know why English teams ignore talent from the region that has won 9 world cups. Some have trouble adapting to the game in England but I'm not sure that explains it.

[Teso Dos Bichos]

Err ... what?

UK: no limits on foreign players in any game eleven.
Spain etc: limits of three or four players.

Talk sense, son.

Err... that is providing they have a work permit which, funnily enough, is not only the subject of this thread but also the major thing preventing UK clubs from signing non-EU players. You clearly don't know the first thing about this issue.

Talk sense, son. :rolleyes:

[Pazarius]

The point is the work permit laws prevent English clubs from signing promising non-EU players early. If a non-EU player is going to be a star, by the time he's eligible for a work permit he will have been noticed by every club and often is already happily establishing himself in La Liga or Serie A. English clubs can only bring in these players later by spending a lot of money.

South American players in particular are put off by the greater cultural shock involved in moving to England. And they prefer to play where there are already a lot of players of the same nationality, giving you a 'chicken and egg' paradox in terms of getting the best players to come.

[superdave]

Err... that is providing they have a work permit which, funnily enough, is not only the subject of this thread but also the major thing preventing UK clubs from signing non-EU players. You clearly don't know the first thing about this issue.

Talk sense, son. :rolleyes:
How many players fit this category.

1. CanNOT get a WP.
2. CAN help a team win in Europe.

Damn few, if any.

Talk sense, son. :rolleyes:

I mean, the US is among the strongest non-EU nations around, and let me tell ya, we don't have any players who can't get a WP but could help a team win in Europe, with the ever-so-slight exception of Eddie Johnson. And that's really based 100% on what he MIGHT be, rather than what he IS. (For those of you who don't know him, he's young, and very talented. He had a great 2004 MLS season, and has a great goalscoring record for the Nats, but mostly against the 2nd rate CONCACAF sides. 2005 was mostly a wasted year due to injuries. Might be great, but is definitely unproven at this point.)

Except for Argentina and Brazil, no nation outside Europe* has more players who could help English teams. If we don't have any, there aren't many of 'em.

*I wrote "outside Europe" because I don't really know which nations are in the EU. There might be a UEFA/non-EU nation that is brimming with talent, that has CL-caliber players who can't get in the national side.

[Matt Clark]

The point is the work permit laws prevent English clubs from signing promising non-EU players early.

Actually, it does the opposite - it forces us to buy them even earlier. Until they're 17 and can sign professional forms, they don't need a work permit. So clubs need to sign them as kids, bring them over and house them within 50 miles of the club in order to qualify them for their Academy.

Which, just to be clear, is what other countries' clubs are already doing anyway (see Messi, Lionel).

Sorry, but there is no "point" in the claim that our work permit rules put us at a disadvantage to other countries when it comes to young players.

[Matt Clark]

Err... that is providing they have a work permit which, funnily enough, is not only the subject of this thread but also the major thing preventing UK clubs from signing non-EU players.

Actually, the topic of this thread is now the development of young players and the apparent disadvantage our work permit rules impose upon our ability to do so. You know - every since you made it the topic of this thread. Do try to keep up, eh?

Although, given the speed with which that silly idea has been debunked, I can understand why you're now keen to move the focus of the discussion on again.

[Teso Dos Bichos]

Sorry, but there is no "point" in the claim that our work permit rules put us at a disadvantage to other countries when it comes to young players.

You really are ignorant, aren't you Matt. If we can just sign up any non-EU player from a very young age, then why the hell does Arsenal and Man Utd have feeder clubs in Belgium, for the sole reason of getting around our restrictive work permit system? British clubs cannot just sign any young non-EU talent, which is exactly the reason why they get send to Belgium, because the laws there are more relaxed and it allows them to get an EU passport a lot easier, which lets them bypass our system, but at the cost of their development. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Matt Clark]

Ignorance has never been something I've suffered from in any sense other than it being imposed upon me in conversation. Like now, for instance.

United's agreement with Royal Antwerp has nothing to do with signing non-EU teenagers. And it predates the current work permit stipulations in any case.

Seriously, just move along now, eh? It's done.

[Pazarius]

Actually, it does the opposite - it forces us to buy them even earlier. Until they're 17 and can sign professional forms, they don't need a work permit. So clubs need to sign them as kids, bring them over and house them within 50 miles of the club in order to qualify them for their Academy.

Ok, let me get this clear in my head. You bring in players under 16 from non-EU countries and put them in your academy. When you hit 17, you then either get them a work-permit (which would be no easier than if the player has stayed in his home country) or British citizenship, meaning the player will have to have lived here for some time (five years?).

I suppose that players under 17 technically wouldn't require work permits if they're not considered to be working. But they'd also have no legal right to live in this country. I don't think that non-EU teenagers can immigrate into Britain at will just because a club wants to put them into their academy. Usually non-EU players in British academies have a non-football related reason why they can already live here.

What's your evidence that clubs can do what you claim?

United's agreement with Royal Antwerp has nothing to do with signing non-EU teenagers. And it predates the current work permit stipulations in any case.

Man Utd signed Dong Fangzhou when he was 18, but as he couldn't get a work permit, they had to send him to Royal Antwerp on loan so he could play somewhere.

[Teso Dos Bichos]

It's time for you to do some research Matt.

[superdave]

Ok, let me get this clear in my head. You bring in players under 16 from non-EU countries and put them in your academy.
Can't be done. FIFA has a rule against the international transfer of children. This comes up all of the time on US boards because of Freddy Adu. I always challenge people to find an example. There's one that I know of...a Brazilian that a Dutch club signed to a youth contract, gave him an apartment, etc. But, here's the key thing...the contract is non-binding. If the kid wants to go elsewhere when he turns 18, the Dutch club has no rights to him and has no rights to compensation either.

OK, let me amend my opening sentence. A club can bring someone that young in, but they have no rights to him when he becomes an adult, and no rights to compensation. So there's no reason for a club to do this. Either the kid stinks, in which case you've wasted money, or he's good, in which case you have to win a bidding war. Sure, I guess the training might buy the club some goodwill in that bidding war...but this rule has been in effect for 4 years now, and so far as I know (and I'm a real geek on this issue), there's only the one case of a club trying this.

[Matt Clark]

Ok, let me get this clear in my head. You bring in players under 16 from non-EU countries and put them in your academy. When you hit 17, you then either get them a work-permit (which would be no easier than if the player has stayed in his home country) or British citizenship, meaning the player will have to have lived here for some time (five years?).

That's one potential scenario from a million, yes. My central point is that the work permit rules do not put us at any significant practical disadvantage in comparison to our continental rivals, be that in terms of the young player or the established non-EU international.

I don't think that non-EU teenagers can immigrate into Britain at will just because a club wants to put them into their academy. Usually non-EU players in British academies have a non-football related reason why they can already live here.

Well, the way it's been done changes of course. It used to be that parents would be sponsored for a working visa by the club, meaning their dependants could come into the UK with them by right. But nowadays clubs offer study and development courses for which candidates can receive all manner of visas.

What's your evidence that clubs can do what you claim?

What am I - an immigration lawyer? I don't have "evidence", I just know what I'm talking about.

Man Utd signed Dong Fangzhou when he was 18, but as he couldn't get a work permit, they had to send him to Royal Antwerp on loan so he could play somewhere.

Yeah - but that's not the same as what you and our young chum up in Livingstone are talking about. That's just using a convenient facility to ensure a prospect gets playing time at a suitably high level of play. This, by the way, is why this confusion exists, there was a brief flurry of media attention on Dong when he signed and was shipped out to Antwerp, now every kid from here to the frozen wastes of Scotland is an expert on work permit rulings.

Look, this is very simple: Royal Antwerp's position as a "feeder club" has nothing to do with our work permit rules. It's just a developmental environment for young players that happens not to be in the UK. There's all manner of reasons for that, but the work permit rules in the UK are little more than a small attendant part, if that.

You want "research"? Well, do it yourself. Me, I shall contend myself with pointing you in the right initial direction, given that I am the only one here who manifestly does not need any further knowledge of this subject.

Here, as your starter for 10 Junior Gobshite Credits, is a list of the players that have gone through Antwerp's books since the agreement with them was signed:

Paul Rachubka
Phil Bardsley
Danny Higginbotham
George Clegg
John O'Shea
Kirk Hilton
Ronnie Wallwork
Alan Tate
Jim Davis
David Fox
Luke Chadwick
Souleymane Mamam
Abdulrahman Hussain
Neil Wood
Jamie Wood
Fangzhuo Dong
Colin Heath
Arthur Gomez
Eddy Johnson

There's a total of three non-British players in there (including Dong, whose brief moment in the sports pages apparently caused this sudden outburst of "expertise" up in Scotland). So if Royal Antwerp were indeed a production line of non-EU talent designed by those clever chaps at Manchester United to circumvent our apparently Dickensian work permit rules, then they're doing a piss-poor job of it, eh?

Now, as I've said repeatedly: how about only people with a clue remain part of this conversation? Hmmmm? Those without, should follow their own advice and do a bit of "research".

[Teso Dos Bichos]

You really are a fool Matt. Why out of all the potential wastelands across Europe was Belgium chosen by both Arsenal and Man Utd? Could it be to do with their lax rules regarding work permits when compared to the UK? Dong had to be loaned to Antwerp because he could not get a work permit and he is still unable to do so, just like our other non-EU players there. Of course the other feeder club benefits have been utilised, but that was not the main purpose of that link-up. Man Utd have publically stated that, as have FIFA and the FA. So instead of your pathetic stance, just accept that you are wrong and move on. For starters I count more than 3 non-EU players and do you remember the Mark Gonzalez case at your own club? Still not satisfied? Read what Wenger has just stated:

"Arsenal manager Arsene Wenger has hit out at the UK's work permit policy by revealing that red tape stopped him from signing Ronaldinho."
(http://home.skysports.com/list.asp?hlid=348693&CPID=8&clid=&lid=2&title=Wenger+bemoans+permit+rules)