American Hooligans?

[surfcam]

Saw this in The Guardian today and thought it might spark some debate.

http://football.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,9753,1660884,00.html

My response to the editor:

Interesting take on American sports, though the Eagles supporters are among the craziest there are. I have been to loads of matches of college and pro American football, basketball, hockey, and baseball around the country and rarely see the kind of insane behavior that you describe. There are nuts out there, but I don't think it is as rampant of a problem.

Also, I believe that the most Americans and the media don't support these violent acts. The big difference is the use of the word hooligan. It has become associated with football fans and although the people here in the states who act the same way, they just aren't given the same "label". It isn't acceptable by either party.

Finally, it is true that you can go to matches at English stadiums and not see the same behavior as at some American stadiums, but that can partially be due to separation of fans, loads of police, and video surveillance. I had great experiences at Highbury this year, but was glad for the police presence when I went as an Arsenal fan to White Hart Lane.

[Dave_M]

Heh I wondered when you was gonna chime in with the "Hey I survived the Lane biyatch!".

A fan of English soccer, Petrillo has attended games at Highbury and Stamford Bridge. "I didn't see anything, not a thing - zero fistfights. I even saw the coach with the opposition team arrive - nothing, no banging on the sides, nothing. In the streets before, during, after the game - I felt completely 100% safe and secure."

Well Arsenal is notorious from being safe as houses these days. Thats why its policed by 3 officers. Stark contrast to the 20+ Riot vans lining up outside White Hart Lane on derby day. Thugs :)

[thecheat48]

Another interesting contrast between US and non-US sports fans is that US sports fans (outside of MLS and other football teams) are not organized into supporters groups.

The closest I have experienced was at hockey games in the 80s- Flyers/Penguins/Islanders/Rangers/Devils fans used to organize full buses to come to games at the old Caps Center. But they werent standing organizations with history and leaders etc.

As a fan of a certain American football team from Washington, DC, I am quite familiar with Eagles fans, as well as Flyers fans. And I think the crossover is significant...they truly are in a league of their own.

[hiddi]

Eagles suck. Go Dallas. :D

I was at last night's flyers game it was amazing

[jwaldman11]

Another interesting contrast between US and non-US sports fans is that US sports fans (outside of MLS and other football teams) are not organized into supporters groups.

The closest I have experienced was at hockey games in the 80s- Flyers/Penguins/Islanders/Rangers/Devils fans used to organize full buses to come to games at the old Caps Center. But they werent standing organizations with history and leaders etc.

As a fan of a certain American football team from Washington, DC, I am quite familiar with Eagles fans, as well as Flyers fans. And I think the crossover is significant...they truly are in a league of their own.
That's not entirely true. I know that the Browns have their "Browns Backers" groups (unfortunately) all over the country. But you're right that, for most teams, it's an unofficial bond. Part of it is that the country's just huge and part of it is that people move around so much that there's no chance to get settled in one club.

That being said, I know that, no matter where I live in the States, there will be a Steelers' bar located nearby. :D

[antifan]

Saw this in The Guardian today and thought it might spark some debate.

http://football.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,9753,1660884,00.html

My response to the editor:
Wow, that article is total crap. Sure, Philly fans are the most bitter, hateful fans in the US, but acting like they are the norm is a farce. Its like using Milwall as the example for UK fans.

[jwaldman11]

Wow, that article is total crap. Sure, Philly fans are the most bitter, hateful fans in the US, but acting like they are the norm is a farce. Its like using Milwall as the example for UK fans.
They had an article on ESPN.com where a writer followed around one of the die-hard Raider fans. Turned out the guy was as nice as could be. He was taking pictures with kids, passing out stickers and things and even took pictures with Bronco fans. I think the guy needed to look at other teams and actually follow some of the diehards around before going to Philly.

[Detlef]

the now-demolished Veterans Stadium in Philadelphia had a jail and a magistrate to fine/sentence unruly fans :eek:

[HighburyGoon]

Living just outside of Philly, I shared this article with many of my Eagle phan phriends. Expect several letters to the editor to be bourne phrom this.

[jwaldman11]

Living just outside of Philly, I shared this article with many of my Eagle phan phriends. Expect several letters to the editor to be bourne phrom this.
Are you sure that the crayon won't rub off by the time the letter gets to the UK?

I keed, I keed. :D

[Rick B]

Living just outside of Philly, I shared this article with many of my Eagle phan phriends. Expect several letters to the editor to be bourne phrom this.

Oh jeez, not you as well now. I have to spend an extra minute translating Ryans posts!!! I swear, either of you make a post over 10 lines and Im editing it!!! :D

[n4100]

Woah here folks, stop and look at the full article. I'm not gonna stand up for the Philly fans in that article, because hey, even I've come across them (and I live here). The one thing in the article I think a number of you are failing to look it is the recent rise in violence after championships, both college and pro. It is pretty bad when after almost every championship game there are riots and car burnings, and the mobbing of football fields after college games is pretty dangerous.

Sure, Philly is slightly skewed, but the gist of the article isn't far off.

[asfoolasiam]

The author loses credibility by focusing just on the Philly fans, who -- as someone noted above -- are the Milwall supporters of the NFL. Nevertheless, the anarchy following some US sports matches -- particularly collegiate sports -- is shameful.

The angle the author misses, I believe -- which also was noted by someone above -- is that in the US, sports violence tends to be anarchic; whereas in soccer hooliganism, violence is a form of social [or I should say, antisocial] bonding and has an almost ritualistic aspect. An Iggles supporter might get drunk and beat the snot out of a Cowboys supporter; but supporters from both NFL teams don't plan ahead of time to meet for a tea-time brawl.

[antifan]

Woah here folks, stop and look at the full article. I'm not gonna stand up for the Philly fans in that article, because hey, even I've come across them (and I live here). The one thing in the article I think a number of you are failing to look it is the recent rise in violence after championships, both college and pro. It is pretty bad when after almost every championship game there are riots and car burnings, and the mobbing of football fields after college games is pretty dangerous.

Sure, Philly is slightly skewed, but the gist of the article isn't far off.
Yeah, it is pretty far off.

That's the wonder of American sports. There are fistfights, showers of beer (and faeces, canned dog food and coins), portable toilets kicked over with opposition fans inside them, knifings, deafening verbal abuse, full-scale riots, cars set alight, disabled fans stripped and their clothing destroyed, players puking because they've breathed in the pepper spray used by police to dissuade two sets of fans from kicking the sweet bejesus out of each other - and not a single hooligan in sight. Amazing when you think about it.
That is just crap. Sure there have been some violent incidents at sporting events, but its incredibly uncommon. I've never seen anything like what's being described here at any of the sporting events i've been to. Not only that, but i've never been to a sporting event in the US and ever felt threatened with violence, even when i've been a travelling fan sitting in with the home fans and wearing my teams colors. In the games i went to in England and Europe, i saw missles thrown at players a few times. Jens Lehmann was hit at the Spurs game, and Bergkamp was almost hit at the Man Citeh game. In Italy i saw fires set in the stands by away fans, when incidents like this happen at ever. I've never seen things like that happen at any game i've been to in the states.

And whenever college football fans engage in riotous behaviour that would be considered a national scandal if it happened in Britain (as they frequently do), no one seems terribly inclined to call it hooliganism.
Huh? As they frequently do? Pulling down the goalposts isn't a riot. It might be stupid and dangerous, but it certainly isn't violent. And it doesn't really happen that often.

[HighburyGoon]

Oh jeez, not you as well now. I have to spend an extra minute translating Ryans posts!!! I swear, either of you make a post over 10 lines and Im editing it!!! :D


:D It's just phor today Rick. I don't plan on making it a regular pheature. :p


As for the crayon crack Jason, it doesn't bother me any - I'm a Giants fan!

[KevTheGooner]

That's the wonder of American sports. There are fistfights, showers of beer (and faeces, canned dog food and coins), portable toilets kicked over with opposition fans inside them, knifings, deafening verbal abuse, full-scale riots, cars set alight, disabled fans stripped and their clothing destroyed, players puking because they've breathed in the pepper spray used by police to dissuade two sets of fans from kicking the sweet bejesus out of each other - and not a single hooligan in sight. Amazing when you think about it.

I dunno anti. This pretty much sums up Detroit Lions games. Seriously. OK, the second half of that quote is a little over the top..but the rest? Yep, seen all that.

And I could see how a mob of drunk college student rushing the field and tearing down the goal posts would, to an objective observer, seem like pretty outrageous behavior. If people stormed the pitch in England it would be a huge national media event.

And lets remember folks, although I love the Guardian, its not exactly the most US friendly paper in England. Ever read the front page?

[Darth Norteño]

Hmm...I'm glad whoever wrote this seems to have no knowledge of how Denver somehow manages to tear itself apart after winning a championship (2 Super Bowls and 2 Stanley Cups, if I'm not mistaken).

[antifan]

I dunno anti. This pretty much sums up Detroit Lions games. Seriously. OK, the second half of that quote is a little over the top..but the rest? Yep, seen all that.

And I could see how a mob of drunk college student rushing the field and tearing down the goal posts would, to an objective observer, seem like pretty outrageous behavior. If people stormed the pitch in England it would be a huge national media event.

And lets remember folks, although I love the Guardian, its not exactly the most US friendly paper in England. Ever read the front page?
I've seen incidents happen on TV. But in real life, no, i've really never seen anything happen. The incidents that do happen are rarely caused by people attacking opposing fans. I wonder how much that would happen in Britain if away supporters weren't segregated from the home fans. What does generally go on are the types of things that happen whenever you get a big crowd of drunks together, whether its at a game or at spring break. There just isn't the same level of hatred here for the most part. The article also confuses soccer violence with English hooliganism, they are not the same thing. Sure, England got a bad reputation after Hillsborough and Heysel, but since then there have been plenty of other incidents around the world that have made news in the US. The writer forgets that scenes like last year in Milan still make the news here and give soccer a bad name, even if they have nothing to do with English hooligans.

[TGE70]

Yeah, it is pretty far off.


That is just crap. Sure there have been some violent incidents at sporting events, but its incredibly uncommon. I've never seen anything like what's being described here at any of the sporting events i've been to. Not only that, but i've never been to a sporting event in the US and ever felt threatened with violence, even when i've been a travelling fan sitting in with the home fans and wearing my teams colors. In the games i went to in England and Europe, i saw missles thrown at players a few times. Jens Lehmann was hit at the Spurs game, and Bergkamp was almost hit at the Man Citeh game. In Italy i saw fires set in the stands by away fans, when incidents like this happen at ever. I've never seen things like that happen at any game i've been to in the states.


Huh? As they frequently do? Pulling down the goalposts isn't a riot. It might be stupid and dangerous, but it certainly isn't violent. And it doesn't really happen that often.

Read this article earlier with great interest, and this was the first thread I saw on it. I say that only to clarify that I'm not trolling. Christ, especially not tonight. That said, congrats on advancing in the CL.

While Eagles fans are admittedly unusual, the argument is pretty sound. Fights routinely break out at Sox v. Yankees games. In May. Basketball victories, pro and college, frequently resort in violence or at leas violent destruction of property. And arguments over rivalries of all kinds, generally with underlying tensions, have been known to boil over. At UMass Amherst, for example, a barroom debate over the merits of Dwight Gooden when he was the Mets vs. Roger Clemens when he was with the Sox sparked into a serious fight as I've heard the story told (apologies to any if I have it wrong).

So, yeah, Eagles fans are the outliers, but this represents a big fat blind spot on the part of American media.

For what it's worth, I was surprised that he didn't mention that the first game held at the Linc was United v. Barcelona in 2003.

[n4100]

I've seen incidents happen on TV. But in real life, no, i've really never seen anything happen. And the incidents that do happen are rarely caused by people attacking opposing fans. I wonder how much that would happen in Britain if away supporters weren't segregated from the home fans. And the incidents that do happen are the types of things that happen whenever you get a big crowd of drunks together, whether its at a game or at spring break. There just isn't the same level of hatred here for the most part. Another thing that the article gets wrong is confusing soccer violence with English hooliganism, they are not the same thing. Sure, England got a bad reputation after Hillsborough and Heysel, but since then there have been plenty of other incidents around the world that have made news in the US. The writer forgets that scenes like last year in Milan still make the news here and give soccer a bad name, even if they have nothing to do with English hooligans.
Ahh, but it seems as though he's talking about soccer hooliganism itself, not just English hooligans.

And you state yourself that you've not seen it live, but have on tv. He does make a point about the beer and alcohol and how it effects the incidents. What he's saying isn't that we're "hooligans" in the respect as to how we define soccer hooligans over here, but that the US does have a fan problem, just a different sort.