Bayern Munich [R]

[Bethany]

Does anyone know where I could download the "Stern Des Suedens" song? Or any other soccer cong dealing with Germany? Or possibly find the lyrics to??? Personal Message me! Thanks!

[Syncope]

Boy, nothing happening here. Between taking five classes at the university, homework, freelance work, and running the household (cooking, groceries, laundry, etc.) I haven't even had time to check in. Crying (about Bayern) has also taken a lot of time--and cost a lot of sleep.

Tomorrow is the big one--Milan in Milan. One point out of three games so far isn't even enough to make it into the UEFA Cup. I was hoping for six points out of the first three matches: three from Lens and the other three from either Milan or La Coruna. However, I am not surprised (albeit extremely upset) by both Milan and La Coruna winning (even in Munich). Milan had the best player acquisitions during the off-season, and La Coruna is a world-class team in disguise. Munich should have beat La Coruna, but, as so often, they were to cocky and over-confident, thinking they'd already won before the match even started. A typical Bayern weakness...and very upsetting to fans. Maybe Bayern didn't know or care that La Coruna had been equal to or better than Madrid, Barcelona, and Valencia over the past two to three seasons.

Now it's too late. While there is a mathematical chance of Munich still advancing, the group leaders probably won't be dumb enough to let someone else steal the butter off their bread. Financially the UEFA Cup can be just as attractive if a team makes it all the way to the final--which is quite difficult. However, and while financially undesirable, Munich dropping out of Europe this season completely would finally have the benefit of the players getting some rest, and management being able to lighten they payroll by selling off underperforming players (Pablo Thiam and Nico Kovac for example).

Whenever I have posted on German boards in the past complaining about Munich's defense, I would get blasted by others about how I was out of my mind, and how wonderful the defense is. Last season, for example, they allowed only 25 goals in 34 league matches--a new team record, and that's with losing 1:5 at Schalke. But what people never realized is that it's not the quantity (or lack thereof) that matters, but how the goals are scored. A "world-class" defense shouldn't lose at relegation-threatened St. Pauli, shouldn't let a 3:1 second-half lead at home over Wolfsburg turn into a 3:3, or allow a last-second goal on an indirect freekick awarded to Bremen. Any one of these cost the championship last season, and not the loss to Schalke.

Supposedly, Munich is interested in the fantastic Turkish striker Ilhan Mansiz. While he would be a great addition to the team, maybe management will once more neglect defensive needs. THAT makes me REALLY mad.

[olafgb]

Originally posted by Syncope

Financially the UEFA Cup can be just as attractive if a team makes it all the way to the final--which is quite difficult.

Whenever I have posted on German boards in the past complaining about Munich's defense, I would get blasted by others about how I was out of my mind, and how wonderful the defense is. Last season, for example, they allowed only 25 goals in 34 league matches--a new team record, and that's with losing 1:5 at Schalke. But what people never realized is that it's not the quantity (or lack thereof) that matters, but how the goals are scored. A "world-class" defense shouldn't lose at relegation-threatened St. Pauli, shouldn't let a 3:1 second-half lead at home over Wolfsburg turn into a 3:3, or allow a last-second goal on an indirect freekick awarded to Bremen. Any one of these cost the championship last season, and not the loss to Schalke.

Supposedly, Munich is interested in the fantastic Turkish striker Ilhan Mansiz. While he would be a great addition to the team, maybe management will once more neglect defensive needs. THAT makes me REALLY mad.

I think Bayern has good chances to win the UEFA Cup if they got to play there, but financially reaching the UEFA Cup final is about the same as the second CL group stage (so, same income without the playoff rounds).

I'm also saying since years that Bayern doesn't have very good defenders. The Effenberg system just didn't show the problems to the public. With a closer look they would have detected that Bayern played extremely defensive with the key parole 'security first'. They always had good ball possession, but this was hardly in the opponent's offense. As a consequence the opponent hardly had chances to score due to the tight defense network.
Now Ballack rather has the idea of simply scoring more goals than the opponent. The game is much moer offensive, but the problems get obvious as this way of playing means getting counter attacks: the slow defence.
Another consequence of course is for Kahn, who already demanded to return to the Effenberg system. Before he hardly got shots and they were that good defended that most scenes were rather harmless (as in the national team btw). Now he's often having one on one situations where he can't defend. Result is that he currently even isn't in the goalie top 10 of the Bundesliga.

Bayern's transfer politics will surely also be determined by the international achievements. With dropping entirely they'd have to reduce the roster for the next season rather than buying spectacular players since this one is the most expensive Bayern roster of all times. Mansiz is a free transfer, so this would be possible. But you're right, it is a phenomenon that many clubs who'd need defenders buy forwards on and on without detecting the problem, e.g. Hertha or Wolfsburg.

Funny is that despite of the many goals against I think that Leverkusen has the best defence of the league if all are available (Placente, Lucio, Nowotny, Juan). They are the complete opposite of the Effenberg style and get many goals due to their offensive system. They could probably reach much more with the 'defence first' parole, but luckily nobody in Leverkusen wants to see that.

[Alex_K]

It's off-topic, but who had the idea to let Effenberg comment games ? He made so many dumb statements that i don't know where to start. Just one example: tell this guy that it isn't allowed to make more than 3 substitutions.

[olafgb]

Originally posted by Alex_K
tell this guy that it isn't allowed to make more than 3 substitutions.

"I don't understand why Hitzfeld doesn't bring Zickler" - that was funny. Effenberg would be a good coach in the tradition of Christoph Daum, Horst Heese and Otto Rehhagel ;). The more I'm hearing from Effenberg, the more I'm thinking that he's the Dieter Bohlen of soccer :)

[Syncope]

No surprises tonight—Bayern lost. Again. It is upsetting, however.

Bayern’s arrogance has finally sunk them this season, but not tonight. The season was lost when La Coruna won in Munich, scoring three goals. Bayern’s off-season acquisitions were great, but entirely unbalanced. No one can argue that Ballack, Ze Roberto (when in form), and Deisler (when healthy) aren’t great signings. Still, nothing substantive has been done for the defense over the past few seasons, which would be OK if Bayer still played its successful defensive system. One thing is certain in my mind: Bayern would not have lost the opener at home if Effenberg were still with the team. With Effe, defense started at the midline, with a lot of engagement.

So what are the specific problems? And how can they be fixed? First and foremost, Bayern tried to play “pretty” football—exactly what they sneered at over the past decade. That’s a fatal systemic flaw, no matter how talented anyone’s defensive players are. Right now there’s no axis on the field that can be relied on. Usually this axis starts with the goalie, a central defender, the midfield anchor, and a sole striker who can score on half-chances. I am not advocating a system where a central midfielder receives all the balls to distribute. But I am saying that such an axis can bring reliability and stability to the game when needed. You still need eleven players to make a team.

Second, Bayern believed all the pre-season accolades, especially after winning Real Madrid’s centenary tournament. Never, ever believe in these results. That’s where Bayern failed against La Coruna: believing that the game was already won before being played, and not believing or realizing that La Coruna is actually a world class team. (Losing twice to AC Milan, winning in Munich and tieing in La Coruna, and winning home and away against Lens would have meant 10 points and assured advancement. Easier said than done, but a viable strategy.) This failure goes all the way up to Beckenbauer who wanted to see pretty soccer in Munich, so to solely blame Hitzfeld is wrong. Hitzfeld, Beckenbauer, Hoeness, and Rummenigge are all at fault—as are the players.

People are looking to Ballack to be the Effenberg replacement. Worse still, they are looking to him to be a playmaker. That is not the kind of player he is. Ballack is successful because he is stealthy, and shows up and strikes when the opposition isn’t expecting it. In Leverkusen his role (and how he interpreted it himself) was defensive. It’s great to have a defensive mid who can also score. In Munich he is played out of position—behind the attack for support. This all but negates his qualities.

Deisler was supposed to be the new playmaker (I’m guessing), but he’s still recovering from injury, and probably won’t find back to form for the entire rest of the season, no matter when he returns. Also, it is my firm and unfounded an uninformed belief that he will continually re-injure himself for the rest of his career. I’m hoping for the best, but am expecting the worst. If and when he does return, I’d rather seem him to the right of center, where he often plays best—very much the same position as Beckham.

Ze Roberto simply hasn’t shown any of his brilliance from last season, and Scholl, who often plays the same position, is frequently injured so that Bayern will have to stick with Ze Roberto on the left wing until (hopefully) he shows his old self again. To Scholl’s credit, whenever he does come back from injury, he’s immediately fantastic again, and is equally as dangerous behind the attackers as he is on the left wing.

Things I’m hoping for:
- Bayern sells Zickler, Thiam, and Nico Kovac.
- Bayern puts defense first again. (As Kahn said during the World Cup, “All the pretty teams are at the beach already.”)
- Bayern acquires Ilhan Mansiz (for an aging Elber).
- Bayern needs a substitute for Salihamidzic. Bernd Schneider would be my first choice, but that will never happen (and Olaf will kill me :)).
- Bayern acquires two central defenders. I’m open for suggestions. Anyone can suggest Nesta et al, but realistic suggestions would be more interesting.

[olafgb]

Originally posted by Syncope

Things I’m hoping for:
- Bayern sells Zickler, Thiam, and Nico Kovac.
- Bayern puts defense first again. (As Kahn said during the World Cup, “All the pretty teams are at the beach already.”)
- Bayern acquires Ilhan Mansiz (for an aging Elber).
- Bayern needs a substitute for Salihamidzic. Bernd Schneider would be my first choice, but that will never happen.
- Bayern acquires two central defenders. I’m open for suggestions. Anyone can suggest Nesta et al, but realistic suggestions would be more interesting.

Seems that we were simultaneously writing a long post :)

Your hopes:

- selling: they'll do, but they can't in the winter break as I mentioned in the thread I opened.

- defence first: probably won't happen, Ballack is not the player type for this. Personally I hate defence soccer, but with Bayern I don't care - if they play defensive, it is just one more reason to hate them. Leverkusen reached three second spots with offence soccer btw. (no titles, but long lasting chances, which means success for the relatively small budget compared to Bayern and Dortmund and other European top teams)

- Elber's home striking rate this season is better than Gerd Müller ever had, he just doesn't score on the road. I never considered him to be real a soccer top star, but he's a forward of good European level I think. Regarding Mansiz I don't know - good at the WC, but I didn't follow his career afterwards.

- Salihamidzic is bad? His unique trick (holding himself, falling behind the opponent; though... it basically was Chapuisat's invention) is caring for lots of free kicks. I think he's a very important player for Bayern. Schneider isn't good in this season so far, don't know if he really helps them. He also wants offence soccer btw.

- quick central defenders is what Bayern really needs first. Problem is that for really good players they had to pay the money they were losing in the CL today. And Bayern isn't exactly famous for detecting or developing talents themselves, but for buying them after others detected and developed them.

[Syncope]

- No, Salihamidzic isn't bad at all. In fact he's very good. But the right side falls apart when he's out. This position requires a player that favors offense, which is why Schneider would be a good fit.

- I also have nothing against Elber. Except he probably won't be able to keep is form until the end of the contract. He's losing a bit of his explosiveness, although he can still decide a game on his own.

To your post. In a press conference earlier this month Rummenigge said that financial planning is rather conservative, and that they only budget with the first round of the CL. Doesn't really matter to me as I'd rather see Bayern in the CL than out of it.

And you are right, Bayern is better at buying players than developing them.

[e_k1]

I don't really rate Elber, sure he gets plenty of goals in the Bundesliga but if Bayern really want to be a top European team again they need a top striker. Elber has pace and can turn quickly, but he just cannot hold the ball and lead the line. I would start every game with Santa Cruz beside him as he is a target man and a better footballer than Elber.

I agree with most of what Syncope has said. I think Hitzfeld hugely underestimated the value of Effenberg to Bayern. I find it hard to believe they would have lost 4 games with him there.

Neither Ballack nor Ze Roberto, both outstanding last year with Bayer, are performing at all. Are they overawed by playing in Munich? Or is Hitzfeld just unable to utilise them as well as Toppmoller did? For example it seemed Ze Reberto was playing up front last night, he whereas he played wide on the left last season.

I wonder what they both think watching Leverkusen progess again this year.

[olafgb]

Ballack is having a good season IMO. He's just not the team leader Bayern wants him to be. I mean, he's the boss on the pitch, but he's nobody who can wake a team up in bad times. In this sense Effenberg was more valuable as he doesn't care to play (?) the a$$hole for the media, which helped the others to stay away from criticsm. Now Ballack is not made responsible by the media and instead they are seeking for other scape-goats. They criticise Kahn for not saving like in the last season, they calculate the minutes Elber is not scoring on the road and mention that he is the player who misses most chances of the whole league - and it's getting obvious by their reactions that they aren't used to be in the center of criticsm, the role that "traditionally" was Effenberg's who didn't care about it. Regarding the quality of the play it was right to get rid off Effenberg; though, in Wolfsburg he proves to have more offence skills than he showed in Bayern, maybe it just was Hitzfeld's tactics with him that made him get kind of limited value.

At the end the officials were being nerved by the boring playing style. Titles is the language of Bayern, that justifies everything. Last season they saw that Leverkusen was better in all three competitions with an attractive playing style - that made the officials, mainly Rummenigge, think and demand nicer soccer, but this isn't Hitzfeld's strength, whose main ability is to form an existing good team into a title collector (I'd love to see how he gets along in a mediocre or bottom ranked team - not for pointing at him and laughing, but I am really curious whether he'd be successful there).

Btw. Ballack (capsule) and Santa Cruz (hand fracture) were injured yesterday and are going to miss a while.

@syncope: sure, Bayern has a conservative financial planning, but the $$$$$ of the next rounds will miss them for further investions. Consider that they spent about 20 to 25 M transfer sums plus surely the same sum signing bonus for Ballack, Ze Roberto and Deisler. Such investions will be impossible for the next season.

[Syncope]

A few replies, in no particular order:

Yes, not staying in Europe this season will have a lasting effect beyond this season. And buying any player(s), defensive or otherwise, does not guarantee Bayern will become a more balanced team again in the immediate future. Both you guys are correct in your assesments of the players, the coach, and the leadership at Bayern. Quite simply, the tools at hand were applied incorrectly. Hitzfeld isn't the coach for attractive football, although he certainly isn't a bad coach either as evidenced by his successes.

Now that Bayern is out for the season, I doubt they will be able to hold all the players that would have normally re-signed, especially Hargreaves, if not everyone can get playing time. The potential loss of money is inconsequential when compared to the loss of good players. Attracting new top-caliber players has also become more difficult overnight. Bayern's problem in signing top-shelf players is the Bundesliga, not the team itself. No world-class player wants to play in the league (not when Spain, Italy, and England are beckoning), and Bayern's only saving grace was playing at the highest level in Europe (and paying salaries on time).

To clarify my own position: I am not a proponent of boring football, but I do believe defense wins games--or at the very least doesn't lose them. Rummennige himself said "as a former striker himself he is loath to admit that games aren't won upfront, but in the back." My preferred strategy for the game comes from reading the rules and interpreting them this way: The objective of this game is to score more goals than your opponent. The rules make not a single mention of style, form, or appearance.

One cannot gurantee that one will score at all, much less score more than the opposition. Therefore, the first strategy is to make sure that the opposition does not (or cannot) score on you. This way, while you cannot be certain that you will be better than your opponent, you at least have a chance at making sure that your opponent is not better than you. It is best to win, but even more important, and possibly easier to implement, is not losing. In a business it is more important to be successful than to look good, and football is a business, albeit a quite emotional one. If you can accomplish your goals (sorry for the pun) while looking good, all the better--you have the best of both worlds. But business comes first. Therefore, I disagree with people who say that football is about style, but I entirely agree with those who say that it should be about style (as long as you take care of business).

Now about Hitzfeld: If Bayern were to go back to business (difficult with the current midfield, which is better at offense than defense), Hitzfeld has certainly proved that he can manage this successfully. But if Bayern's leadership wants to see successful and pretty soccer, than he's not the man for the job. I like two coaches in particular; 1) Felix Magath, who emphasizes, and successfully implements, the basics, and 2) and Jupp Heynckes, who knows how to manage a team that is used to success. I think either of these would also be a great choice for the German national team.

[Mario]

Is Michael Ballack cursed???


I mean, last year he played four finals at both club level and Ntl side and he lost all, then he got his transfer to Bayern and then they got not even the third place to opt for the UEFA Cup, Bayern was eliminated in the first round for the first time since the 70-71 season!

[Syncope]

Yeah, pretty bad luck. Although he's about to break apart because he's played nearly every minute of every game, didn't get enough rest after the WC (like Kahn, etc.) and couldn't ever fully let any of his injuries heal.

He'll probably be better for it, but it's not much of a consolation.

[olafgb]

Very bad for Bayern that the TV contracts for the Champions League expires after this season. Now is the very last chance to make big bucks. When winning the title in 2001 they made 46.2 M, last year (quarter final) they gained 31.9 M and this season 13 M only - all in the times of very good TV contracts. Comparison: Dortmund made 13 M when winning the title in 1997 (though it surely won't go that deep down).

[Mario]

Bayern Continue To Suffer Repercussions

As was inevitably going to be the case, Bayern Munich are experiencing a massive fallout after their disastrous 2-1 loss at Deportivo La Coruna confirmed their exit from the first phase of the Champions League.

By far the biggest repercussion is the estimated 30m euro the side Karl-Heinz Rumennige dubbed "the best Bayern team ever" stand to miss out on in relation to two years ago, when Bayern lifted the Champions League trophy at the expense of Valencia.

From a more micro perspective, Bayern may have lost the services of three of their top-performers at least for the weekend. Michael Ballack will definitely have to sit this weekend's showdown with Werder out due to a thigh injury, Giovane Elber is listed as doubtful after taking a knock to his knee, while the outlook that Roque Santa Cruz will be able to play on Sunday is quite good even though he broke a bone in his left hand against Depor.

[Syncope]

Current injured players:

- Ballack (10-14 days)
- Santa Cruz (broken hand, questionable for Sunday)
- Elber (10-14 days)
- Tarnat (don't know status other than that he has a minor injury from the CL match)
- Salihamidzic (likely for Sunday, injury from CL match)
- Hargreaves (possible for Sunday pending stress test)
- Kahn (possible for Sunday pending stress test)
- Scholl (likely for Sunday)

Ballack & Elber out against Bremen and Dortmund (BL), and Cup match against Hannover.

[JeffS]

Bayern's big problem is that it has too many creative offensive types and not enough hard working, ball winning, defensive types in the starting line up.

Ze Roberto is not known for his defense or ball winning, Salihamidzic is the same way. Bayern is trying to make Ballack into the playmaker, when (as was already noted in a previous post) he is a defensive mid who sneaks up for goals. Plus, they don't have a true target man up front. Elber and Pizarro are more creative front facing type of forwards. They are not target types that like to mix it up with opposing central defenders. Bayern's best recent season (two years ago) regularily featured a (then) in-form Carsten Jancker, who was very disruptive to the opposition.

I also agree that they miss Effe. He was an excellent playmaker, but also posessed tremendous defensive skills. In fact, he could often be found hanging back, just in front of the defenders.

Bayern needs to get more of the blue collar guys on the pitch, Such as Tarnat, Hardgreaves, Zickler (a good target man) and Fink, rather than Ze Roberto or Salihamidzic.

Most of the best teams in recent times are built with a lot good blue collar type players and a few creative type players. Germany was this way in the World Cup (built around Ballack, as was France when they won it 4 years ago (a team built around Zidane).

And now that Bayern have Ballack, they might be better served to use a 3-5-2 line up, as Rudi Voeller did in the WC. In the WC, Ballack had Schneider to share in play making duites, which freed up Ballack to do his thing.

A good starting line up with this alignment would be:
G - Kahn
D - Linke
D - Koufor (or R Kovac)
D - Lizurazu
M - Fink (or Hargreaves, or Sagnol) - right side
M - Jeremies - defensive middle
M - Tarnat - left side
M - Scholl - roaming playmaker
M - Ballack - defensive who sneaks forward
F - Pizzaro
F - Zickler

I omit the Bundesliga's leading scorer (Elber) because he doesn't score on the road and his strike rate (goals to shots) is lousy. I put in Zickler because he's big, strong, fast, and makes a good target man.

[Mario]

Sorry to disagree but I dont rate Zickler that high!

[Syncope]

For some reason, the entire Bayern thread is gone...or maybe I'm just too dumb to find it. As I put a lot of time into writing my posts for that thread, and seeing it mutilated and my time wasted by the recent roll-back and now it's elimination, I won't waste my time again by launching a new one. I'll keep this short:

The media are reporting that Bayern are interested in Gala's Hasan Sas, supposedly for a transfer sum of 3 million Euros. If he becomes available, and Bayern can sign him, that would be great. While Bayern is overloaded with great midfield players, Sas would make a wonderful addition to the always-injured Ze Roberto and Scholl. However, I find this reporting entirely unlikely and unbelievable. (1) Bayern are denying contact (which may or may not be true), (2)other European clubs would certainly and always outspend Bayern for a player of such caliber; and (3) after the WC Sas himself stated that he would only transfer to Spain, and there only to Barca or Real Madrid. Still, one can hope...

[Syncope]

Indeed, I was too dumb. The Bayern thread was older than 60 days, which is why it didn't show up in the default view.

Of course, it's only that old because of the unfortunate database rollback, so quite a few good comments and analyses from contributors are gone for good. Too bad.