Which are the most and least competitive European leagues?

[mfw13]

Had to much time on my hands, so I developed a methodology for trying to measure this.

Part A is the number of different clubs that have finished in a country's top three places over the past five years. For leagues with twelve or fewer clubs, I used the top two places. This number is expressed as a percentage; for example, Spain has had 7 different clubs finish in the top three over the past five seasons (15 potential spots), so their number is 7/15 or 47 percent.

Part B is the five year average of the number of points earned by the mid-table club (6th in a 10-team league, 7th in a 12-team league, 8th in a 14th team league, 9th in an 16-team league, 10th in an 18-team league, 11th in a 20-team league) divided into the number of points earned by the 1st place club. This number is also expressed as a percentage. For example, in Holland, the numbers were 47/83, 43/73, 44/84, 46/80, and 45/87, yielding an overall percentage of 55.6%.

The total is Part A + Part B.

Here are the rankings, from most competitive to least competitve. I tried to include most of the major countries, with the exception of Poland and Switzerland, whose 2-stage systems do not work in my methodology. Here they are:

1) France 119.6 (53 + 66.6)
2) Sweden 118.2 (53 + 65.2)
3) Austria 114.8 (50+64.8)
4) Spain 108.8 (47 + 61.8)
5) Czech. Republic 106.8 (47 + 59.8)
6) Russia 103.8 (40 + 63.8)
7) Germany 102.8 (40 + 62.8)
8) Turkey 95.2 (40 + 55.2)

MEDIAN = 91.9

9) Italy 88.6 (33 + 55.2)
10) Denmark 88.4 (20 + 68.4)
11) England 88.2 (33 + 55.2)
12) Belgium 86.4 (33 + 53.4)
13) Portugal 84.0 (27 + 57.0)
14) Holland 82.6 (27 + 55.6)
15) Greece 77.6 (27 + 50.6)
16) Scotland 66.4 (20 + 46.4)

Have fun discussing!

[guignol]

despite OL's current dominance, i have to agree that france is a very competitive league. may i add that in the 10 years between OM's last title and Ol's first, NINE different teams were champions.

[King-James]

Italy might get a misleadingly high rating because of all the jumping around of clubs due to financial issues lately ;)

[spoonman]

Nice work but what's the value of it?

I think that being low on the scale is rather benefitiary for Holland and i prefer the low spot. We currently got three topclups plus one is banging on the door. If a small country has got a much more competitive league then us it probably means that the topclub(s) are (is) weaker.

I don't think it's a coincedence that Portugal also got a low ranking. If you look at European football for small competitions you can almost turn the table around.

[guignol]

the value of this thread or the value of a competitive league?

for armchair fans in singapore and saskatoon there's no interest in competitive leagues, they simply have to choose between real, barça, milan or chelsea as "their" club, and can even change allegiances like TV channels. but for the gutlevel fans that watch their football from the ends in st. etienne, newcastle and belo horizonte, seeing competitive matches week in week out is what football is all about!

[mfw13]

Well, I did this mainly just for fun because I had too much time on my hands...but given that there are a lot of leagues which are perceived as being very boring, since they are dominated by the same 3-4 teams each year, I was curious to see if my perceptions were borne out in reality.

[ForzaGiallorossi]

You should also factor in how far into the season the league winner was determined. Because theoritically you could have a different dominant team each year in a league which would make the league appear to be a more "competitive" league in your system. France being number one is a little misleading, because havn't Lyon won the championship the past four years? I'd say that is hardly a competitive league, maybe if you took Lyon out and let the rest play. In Spain, only 9 teams have ever won the la liga championship, in the past 5 seasons, it has only been barca, valencia and real madrid. I dont know much about sweden or austria, but they may be competitive within their own leagues, but I don't see them as much of a threat in competitions like champions league or Uefa cup. But that's just my opinion. Good analysis though

[dmar]

This thread reinforces my preconception about the competition in the different leagues. Of the mayor leagues, Spain is the msot competitive, Portugal and Holland amongst the least ones.

In Spain, only 9 teams have ever one the la liga championship, in the past 5 seasons, it has only been barca, valencia and real madrid.

Just look at the UEFA and CL teams of the Spanish league of each year and you'll find lots of different teams there. There's a lot of competition in the "second tier" of the league.

[ForzaGiallorossi]

This thread reinforces my preconception about the competition in the different leagues. Of the mayor leagues, Spain is the msot competitive, Portugal and Holland amongst the least ones.



Just look at the UEFA and CL teams of the Spanish league of each year and you'll find lots of different teams there. There's a lot of competition in the "second tier" of the league.

The same is true with Italy, which is listed 9th in the list, below the median.
However, I just can't say a league is competitive when the title winner of the league was determined three weeks before the season was over, and when the second place team (real madrid) was 15 points ahead of the 3rd place team. To me that's not competition, that's domination, with lower teams battling it out just to not be relegated and for a spot in a european tournament. That's the problem with a lot of Europe's major leagues, most teams' goals aren't for the title, its for staying in the top league and maybe getting a chance to be in a european tournament. In Italy its Juve and Milan, in Spain its Barca and Real Madrid (although they are in 4th place, they are still only 4 pts behind 1st, which some might credit to say that Spain is competitive...), in France it's Lyon (10 points ahead of Auxerre and still have a game to play), in Germany its Bayern and Bremen and so on. Austria's only team in champions league hasn't won a game yet, granted they do have a difficult group, and Sweden's champions league team isn't doing that well either. So, how do we figure out what a competitive league is, that is a tough question. We can say a competitive league is like Sweden and Austria, but is that because most teams are realitively equal, or because the teams just aren't that great? Or do we say countries like France or Spain are competitive, because there are some great teams, and there are teams that are not so great, and that basically there are three competitions going on within the same league, one for the championship, one for getting a spot in a tournament, and the other for just staying in the league and not being relegated. I'm sure this evaluation will cause some stir, but I don't mean to offend anyone and say their teams or league they like are inferior to others. And although I do watch serie A and am a big fan of Italian football, I can't say they are competitive because there are only a few teams that really compete for the championship, but I do think they have a lot of quality teams that can compete in Europe, as do the other major leagues. So what have I resolved...absolutely nothing :D

[mfw13]

Just to clarify, when I say competitive, I do not mean strongest. You would use a competely different methodology to determine the strongest league in Europe, probably using Champions League and UEFA Cup results.

France is probably the most interesting league right now simply because it does not have a financially dominant big-city club (PSG should be but are not). While Lyon have won 4 consecutive championships and are well on their way to a fifth, from 1992 to 1999 seven different clubs won the championship (Marseille, PSG, Nantes, Auxerre, Monaco, Lens, and Bordeaux), something that had never happened in any league in Europe up to that time and which is unlikely to ever happen again. And if you want a close title race, look no further than 2002-2003, when only 14 points separated 1st (Lyon) from 11th (PSG), and six clubs finished within 4 points of the title.

[King-James]

In Spain, only 9 teams have ever won the la liga championship, in the past 5 seasons, it has only been barca, valencia and real madrid.

Three different champions in five years sounds fairly competitive to me.

[ForzaGiallorossi]

Three different champions in five years sounds fairly competitive to me.

Except when you consider that in the last 20 years only Deportivo la Coruna (once) and Atletico Madrid (once) have won the league title other than those three.

It's also the same with Italy, where Juve, Milan, and Roma have won the scudetto (championship) in the past 5 years. Yet they are still below the median in competitiveness.

[ForzaGiallorossi]

Just to clarify, when I say competitive, I do not mean strongest. You would use a competely different methodology to determine the strongest league in Europe, probably using Champions League and UEFA Cup results.

France is probably the most interesting league right now simply because it does not have a financially dominant big-city club (PSG should be but are not). While Lyon have won 4 consecutive championships and are well on their way to a fifth, from 1992 to 1999 seven different clubs won the championship (Marseille, PSG, Nantes, Auxerre, Monaco, Lens, and Bordeaux), something that had never happened in any league in Europe up to that time and which is unlikely to ever happen again. And if you want a close title race, look no further than 2002-2003, when only 14 points separated 1st (Lyon) from 11th (PSG), and six clubs finished within 4 points of the title.

You are right with your clarification, I didn't distinguish the two so therefore that lead to my reasoning. But I see where you are coming from now. And that's pretty interesting about France, did not know that.

[dmar]

Except when you consider that in the last 20 years only Deportivo la Coruna (once) and Atletico Madrid (once) have won the league title other than those three.

Expand the period three years more and you'll have another two additional teams , Bilbao and Real Sociedad ;)

Anyway, this is quite an interesting thread.

[Alex_K]

in Germany its Bayern and Bremen and so on.

Absolutely wrong. It's almost always Bayern competing with 1-3 other teams. Those teams always change. 5 years ago no one would have called Bremen a dominant team, and in 5 years no one will do so as well probably.

[Alex_K]

from 1992 to 1999 seven different clubs won the championship (Marseille, PSG, Nantes, Auxerre, Monaco, Lens, and Bordeaux), something that had never happened in any league in Europe up to that time

1963/64 (http://www.rsssf.com/tablesd/duit64.html) 1.FC Köln
1964/65 (http://www.rsssf.com/tablesd/duit65.html) SV Werder Bremen
1965/66 (http://www.rsssf.com/tablesd/duit66.html) TSV 1860 München
1966/67 (http://www.rsssf.com/tablesd/duit67.html) Braunschweiger TSV Eintracht
1967/68 (http://www.rsssf.com/tablesd/duit68.html) 1.FC Nürnberg
1968/69 (http://www.rsssf.com/tablesd/duit69.html) FC Bayern München
1969/70 (http://www.rsssf.com/tablesd/duit70.html) VfL Borussia Mönchengladbach

:D

[ForzaGiallorossi]

Absolutely wrong. It's almost always Bayern competing with 1-3 other teams. Those teams always change. 5 years ago no one would have called Bremen a dominant team, and in 5 years no one will do so as well probably.

In the past 20 years, when bayern started to dominate (1985,1986,1987) Bremen won 3 times, 1. FC Kaiserslautern won twice, VfB Stuttgart won once, and BV 09 Borussia Dortmund won twice. Judging by that I would say you're right, I was just going with my two dominant teams in each league theme lol.

[AllezParisAllezPSG]

vive la france haha... happy to see ligue 1 is getting some recognition...

[BocaFan]

Except when you consider that in the last 20 years only Deportivo la Coruna (once) and Atletico Madrid (once) have won the league title other than those three.

It's also the same with Italy, where Juve, Milan, and Roma have won the scudetto (championship) in the past 5 years. Yet they are still below the median in competitiveness.

I think you're missing the point. Variety of champions isn't everything. If anything, I would say that this formula puts too much weight on that. (Hypothetically) Even if the same team won the championship every single year, if there were consistently 4-6 teams within 10 points of that top team, I would say that's a sign of a very competitive league. More competitive than, say, having three different champions in three years all winning by 10+ points.

[ForzaGiallorossi]

I think you're missing the point. Variety of champions isn't everything. If anything, I would say that this formula puts too much weight on that. (Hypothetically) Even if the same team won the championship every single year, if there were consistently 4-6 teams within 10 points of that top team, I would say that's a sign of a very competitive league. More competitive than, say, having three different champions in three years all winning by 10+ points.


But what league is like that? I'd say that'd be a nice league, but eventually it would be disappointing because who wants to see the same team win all the time and the lower teams never being able to surpass them. I don't know, this is a hard subject to discuss, because everyone has different opinions of what is competitive and what is not. I'd say its nice to have teams close to each other in points, but it would also be nice to have a different champion if not every year at least once every three.