Would the world be better off today with the U.S.S.R?

[ZeekLTK]

Especially considering this "war on terror" and all the troubles in the Middle East. The Soviet Union provided somewhat of a "buffer zone" to the West as the muslim-extremists disliked the USSR just as much, if not more-so, than the USA.

So, what if the Soviet Union hadn't collapsed and were still going strong today?
What if they hadn't lost in Afghanistan (or even invaded in the first place)? Would there still be as much trouble in the Middle East today? Would 9/11 have happened in Moscow instead of New York, if it would have even happened at all? Basically how would the past ~15 years have been different?

What do you guys think?

[Smiley321]

The biggest problem from the collapse of the USSR is that there are now a bunch of guys in the US power structure who think that our superpower status enables us to do whatever we want, like making the middle east a beacon of democracy. We're learning the hard way that even a superpower can bite off more than it can chew.

But whenever I long for the good old days of the cold war, I remember the 10,000 nuclear warheads pointed at us. Things are infinitely better now.

[Toon³]

The USSR was an ally to many of the Muslim countries that are now "against" the west. Since the USA was pro-Israel the soviets adopted a pro-Arab stance and like the USA provided troops, training and money to countries like Iran, Syria and Egypt. The countries that were supplied by the Russians would always seek the permission of the USSR before doing anything. In the grand scheme of things having 2 superpowers with thousands of nuclear weapons did stop the middle east from destroying itself. Yes there were wars but not at the scale that there could have been.

The thing with the USSR was that in areas where it opressed mulsims, such as Chechnya now, it had no problem in send thousands of people to Siberia and leaving them there and the problem was gone. Now as it is a market economy and open to charities and human rights groups it can no longer do this. Gone are the days of bombing the hell of a city to get rid of the problem and they are now bogged down in Checenya. The fact the Russian military is a shadow of it's former self is another factor in this.

[Excape Goat]

The USSR was an ally to many of the Muslim countries that are now "against" the west. Since the USA was pro-Israel the soviets adopted a pro-Arab stance and like the USA provided troops, training and money to countries like Iran, Syria and Egypt. The countries that were supplied by the Russians would always seek the permission of the USSR before doing anything. In the grand scheme of things having 2 superpowers with thousands of nuclear weapons did stop the middle east from destroying itself. Yes there were wars but not at the scale that there could have been.



The Soviet Union did not support Iran in the 1980s. Tehran considered the Soviets the lesser of te two evils between Moscow and Washington. When Khoemeni first returned to Iran in the late 1970s, he was somewhat backed by the Soveit Union. However, the Soviets banked in on the wrong fraction. Their man within the Islamic revolution was Mahmud Taleghani, the "Red Iman", who was known to be Khoemeni's main political competitors. Around September 1979, Taleghani suddenly died. Althrough the circumtances of his death remained unknown, an assassination plot by Khoemin was the likely case(I recalled Taleghani died of poison). The Iran-Soviet relations went downhill from then on. The Soviet invasion of Afghanistan played two months later a large part, but the main reasons were ideological difference between islamic fundamentalism and Russian communism, particiliarly of Soviet's fear of an Islamic revolution within the Soviet Central Asia. In fact, President Carter also believed that the collapse of the Soviet Union would began with an Islamic revolution in Soviet Central Asia. At the time of storming of the US Embassy in Tehran, Carter was engaging a "Green Belt" strategy. He envisioned an alliance of Islamic states surrounding the godless Soviet Union because communism was a contradiction to Islamic principles. In 1978, carter lifted the ban sale of military goods on Iran. Even weeks before the US hostage crisis, Brzezinski was meeting the Iranian counterpart of an alliance against the Soviets.

During the intial phrase of Iraq-Iran War, Moscow did break off relations with Iraq whom had been trading oil for Russian arms. It was largely due to their difference in Ethiopia. By 1982, Moscow resumed sending weapons to Iraq.

I think you are talking about Iraq.

[Toon³]

I was referring to the 1950s and 1960s around the time of the Seven Days war

[Howard Zinn]

Bring back Gorby.

[nicephoras]

The USSR was an ally to many of the Muslim countries that are now "against" the west. Since the USA was pro-Israel the soviets adopted a pro-Arab stance and like the USA provided troops, training and money to countries like Iran, Syria and Egypt. The countries that were supplied by the Russians would always seek the permission of the USSR before doing anything. In the grand scheme of things having 2 superpowers with thousands of nuclear weapons did stop the middle east from destroying itself. Yes there were wars but not at the scale that there could have been

This is incredibly simplistic and ultimately incorrect. Egypt kicked out the Soviets in '73 and Iran was NEVER bound to the Soviets. Nor did they participate in the 7 days war, as you allude later. The geopolitical alliances were far more complicated than you make them out to be. The initial war for Israeli independence was fought with Soviet arms smuggled via Czechoslovakia.

[Mani]

The Soviet Union did not support Iran in the 1980s. Tehran considered the Soviets the lesser of te two evils between Moscow and Washington. When Khoemeni first returned to Iran in the late 1970s, he was somewhat backed by the Soveit Union. However, the Soviets banked in on the wrong fraction. Their man within the Islamic revolution was Mahmud Taleghani, the "Red Iman", who was known to be Khoemeni's main political competitors. Around September 1979, Taleghani suddenly died. Althrough the circumtances of his death remained unknown, an assassination plot by Khoemin was the likely case(I recalled Taleghani died of poison). The Iran-Soviet relations went downhill from then on. The Soviet invasion of Afghanistan played two months later a large part, but the main reasons were ideological difference between islamic fundamentalism and Russian communism, particiliarly of Soviet's fear of an Islamic revolution within the Soviet Central Asia. In fact, President Carter also believed that the collapse of the Soviet Union would began with an Islamic revolution in Soviet Central Asia. At the time of storming of the US Embassy in Tehran, Carter was engaging a "Green Belt" strategy. He envisioned an alliance of Islamic states surrounding the godless Soviet Union because communism was a contradiction to Islamic principles. In 1978, carter lifted the ban sale of military goods on Iran. Even weeks before the US hostage crisis, Brzezinski was meeting the Iranian counterpart of an alliance against the Soviets.

During the intial phrase of Iraq-Iran War, Moscow did break off relations with Iraq whom had been trading oil for Russian arms. It was largely due to their difference in Ethiopia. By 1982, Moscow resumed sending weapons to Iraq.

I think you are talking about Iraq.
Taleghani was the spiritual father of Marxist-Islamists who had been divided into two camps "Liberation Movement of Iran" led by Mehdi Bazargan and "People's Mojahedin" led by Massoud Rajavi.

Soviets' main man in Iran was Noureddin Kianouri the leader of "Tudeh Party of Iran" who first helped Khomeini purge his revolutionary rivals Marxist-Islamists, Marxists, and Nationalists before Khomeini turned on the Tudeh Party of Iran and declared them outlaw in 1982, cutting off all ties to Soviets.

[Excape Goat]

This is incredibly simplistic and ultimately incorrect. Egypt kicked out the Soviets in '73 and Iran was NEVER bound to the Soviets. Nor did they participate in the 7 days war, as you allude later. The geopolitical alliances were far more complicated than you make them out to be. The initial war for Israeli independence was fought with Soviet arms smuggled via Czechoslovakia.

That is correct. Up until the Islamic Revolution, Iran was always a sphere of influence unbder the US or UK. The Imperial Russia and early Soviet Union attempted to break into the British influence. The Soviet Union did help the Arabs during the 6-Day War and before, but after the war, they were engaging Detente with the US. They actually viewed the Arab-Israeli conflict as obstacle to their policy with the US at that time. The Egyptians, meanwhile, was eager to seek revenge for the war in 1967 and asked for more Soviet arms. Instead, the Soviet gave them mainly defensive weapons and while seeking to maintain the status quo in the region. The Egyptians were pissed and kicked them out in 1972.

[ToonUSA]

We must not forget the long term effects that the Cold War had on Africa. A lot of the money for the Muslim regimes in the Middle East comes from the Africans who are a tad sore over American policy during the Cold War era.

[Excape Goat]

Soviets' main man in Iran was Noureddin Kianouri the leader of "Tudeh Party of Iran" who first helped Khomeini purge his revolutionary rivals Marxist-Islamists, Marxists, and Nationalists before Khomeini turned on the Tudeh Party of Iran and declared them outlaw in 1982, cutting off all ties to Soviets.

The year 1982 was the same year that the Soviets started to re-supply the Iraqis. I do not know the timing the events, but I am sure they are related.

[DoyleG]

The end of the USSR meant that nations in the developing world could no longer rely on the financial support they once got. Cuba and Vietnam were forced to withdraw from their foreign ventures in part because the USSR was falling apart.

[Pauncho]

The Cold War is over and we won WITHOUT a nuclear exchange. We should be dancing in the streets.

Anyone who pays any attention to history knows that the years following a major war with a peace settlement that makes real change are characterized by a very messy and violent re-adjustment - see the events of 1918-1924.

I am a Boomer, and as recently as 1989 I still expected I, or my daughter, would die in a nuclear war. I'm not happy about al-Qaeda or the erosion of the western middle class, but I have no hesitation in saying that the collapse of the Soviet Union is the most surprising, and best, thing that has happened in the world in my lifetime! The comparatively little problems we face today are fatal to thousands instead of billions. Maintain some perspective.

[Toon³]

This is incredibly simplistic and ultimately incorrect. Egypt kicked out the Soviets in '73 and Iran was NEVER bound to the Soviets. Nor did they participate in the 7 days war, as you allude later. The geopolitical alliances were far more complicated than you make them out to be. The initial war for Israeli independence was fought with Soviet arms smuggled via Czechoslovakia.

Did I ever confine myself to any time period? I mearly stated that the USSR was involved at a period with Egypt. I never said Iran was bound to the Soviets but they did make arms deals until the mid-80's. And I never said that they did participate in the 7 days war. But they were highly involved. The Syrians and Egyptians both sought persmission from the USSR to attack Israel and it was ultimatly soviet ambivalence towards the idea of war against Israel that lead to Israel making the first, pre-emptive strike against Egypt.

[Excape Goat]

Did I ever confine myself to any time period? I mearly stated that the USSR was involved at a period with Egypt. I never said Iran was bound to the Soviets but they did make arms deals until the mid-80's. And I never said that they did participate in the 7 days war. But they were highly involved. The Syrians and Egyptians both sought persmission from the USSR to attack Israel and it was ultimatly soviet ambivalence towards the idea of war against Israel that lead to Israel making the first, pre-emptive strike against Egypt.


The post-Shah Iran was capable. The Soviets did sell weapons to the IRanians. However, Israel also did sell weapons to them. During the beginning of Iran-Iraq War, many foreign observers were wondering how the Iranians were able to use their American-made military hardwares without maintance and spoare parts from the US. It was later discovered that Israel was supplying the Iranians. Years later, there were also the now well-known Iran-Contra arm deals.

[yasik19]

the answer is no. Would it be better for the soviet people? That's a different question.

[odessit19]

If USSR still existed, the problem of Chechnya would be resolved internally, brutally, but it would be resolved. However, the Balkan countries would in the end separate anyways, Berlin Wall might have stayed up a few more years, Israel-Arab confilct would not change as it has not done so, since Russia has simply replaced USSR in its "relations" with the Arab world. I think China is a good example of what USSR could have turned into and 2 countries like that opposing US is not a positive balance in the world.

[argentine soccer fan]

On the positive side, if the USSR still existed we would get much better plots for the James Bond movies. And what can be more sexy than a dangerous and beautiful female soviet spy?

[yasik19]

On the positive side, if the USSR still existed we would get much better plots for the James Bond movies. And what can be more sexy than a dangerous and beautiful female soviet spy?

you do have a good point, although it was a bit tiring seeing Soviets as the bad guys. But yeah, soviet spy girls rock.

http://swdanniiminogue.tripod.com/Women/FamkeJanssen/FamkeJanssen03.jpg

[minorthreat]

Well, Latin America and East Asia certainly wouldn't be - if the USSR were still around, we'd likely still be trying to keep Communists out of power in American spheres of influence by propping up murderous right-wing dictators like the Somozas, Park Chung-Hee, and Chun Doo-Hwan.