I Want a Team Here, But...

[5x300games]

I'm having problems finding justification for an MLS team based on what I think is a lack of support for the skilled local teams that we already have.

Case in point: I went to watch the Croatians and Kickers play for the US Open Cup qualifier at Uihlein the first weekend of November. There were less than 50 people in attendance, watching two of the best teams in the state. If you could deal with the weather, it was a GREAT game.

If Milwaukee is truly a "soccer town" then why is there such dismal support for the local teams? And, isn't this lack of support an indication of the support an MLS team would get? Why or why not?

[gothamite]

I don't know that it is any indication of support. Support for minor league baseball teams hasn't necessarily translated into support for MLB clubs. Likewise Arena League and the NFL.

[Pygmalion]

Go to a Brookfield East v. Brookfield Central game and you'll feel better.

[Shah]

Wow, 50 people for a bar league match, that's more than I would have expected.

[CL_2004]

never been done to Wisconsin but I can say that MLS would be crazy to think about expansion anywhere near there. :D

forget about it.

[5x300games]

Wow, 50 people for a bar league match, that's more than I would have expected.

Bar league. That's funny. :rolleyes:

[5x300games]

Go to a Brookfield East v. Brookfield Central game and you'll feel better.

That's the irony, Pygmalion. In the main stadium the WIAA state high school championships were going on and the stands were packed. Now, don't get me wrong. I think the kids now are far better than when I played. But I think there are a few part-time and former professionals playing for the Kickers and Croatians. These guys had skills and no one was watching.

Is the MLS so superior to these majors teams that people will come in droves and pay more money to see them?

[olderandwiser]

5x300, I understand your frustration. Between the ethnic clubs, the Milwaukee Kickers, and all the other clubs located in Milwaukee, this soccer city is fractured by the sheer numbers in existence. I have great concern for the lack of support youth clubs and high school programs have shown the pro clubs that have tried to make it in Milwaukee thus far. I am also concerned about the lack of respect that clubs have for high school programs and visa versa. There's a lot of things that need to change and until these changes occur, I see a difficult row to hoe for MLS in Milwaukee.

So what's my point? Until all these club presidents unify and decide to support a pro team, no pro team will be supported en masse.

[Peter Wilt]

I'm having problems finding justification for an MLS team based on what I think is a lack of support for the skilled local teams that we already have.

Case in point: I went to watch the Croatians and Kickers play for the US Open Cup qualifier at Uihlein the first weekend of November. There were less than 50 people in attendance, watching two of the best teams in the state. If you could deal with the weather, it was a GREAT game.

If Milwaukee is truly a "soccer town" then why is there such dismal support for the local teams? And, isn't this lack of support an indication of the support an MLS team would get? Why or why not?

Two main reasons: Product and promotion.

Chicago Fire currently has 12 players with full national team experience. Advertising budget is in the hundreds of thousands of dollars. Milwaukee's MLS team will have similar talent and budgets.

Salt Lake's USL team averaged a couple hundred fans per game in 2004. RSL averaged more than 18,000 in 2005.

Others may want to go into more depth, but i think these simple facts should shed some light on this issue.

peter

[kebzach]

Bar league. That's funny. :rolleyes:

Bar league isn't the right term, but at the same time, I dare you to find any league similar to the Majors that draws thousands of fans in any city in the U.S.

You're not quite comparing apples to oranges. If your comparison was accurate, then there would be thousands of people at AAU Basketball and Semi-Pro Baseball and Football games too, all across the country.

[Pygmalion]

Is the MLS so superior to these majors teams that people will come in droves and pay more money to see them?

The answer is yes, and we probably should move on.

I don't mean to get grumpy about this, and you probably don't care if I do, but your premise just strikes me as so flawed that this discussion is pretty close to a waste of time. Two soccer games are going on at the same time on the same grounds, one game is packed and the other has fifty people watching and you choose to identify the game with fifty people watching as a sign that MLS will fail here.

I don't see the "irony" in the fact that the high school tourny games were packed. Nor would I point to those attendance rates as a sure fire sign that an MLS team will succeed here anymore than I would worry about the success of an MLS team because fifty people showed up for a local majors game.

On one field the glass is clearly full and on the other field you choose to see the glass as half empty. Overall it sounds like it was a pretty good day for soccer in this city.

[mkecane]

These teams not doing well isn't necessarily an indication that MLS wouldn't work here. I never played as a kid, but my best friend in elementary and middle school played for a club team that was pretty good. I'd go to his games, and I remember him talking about playing Bavarians, Croatians, and Mequon United.

Now, in my mid-20s, I haven't heard about Croatians in years, and I would've never thought to see if they had a U-23 or something comparable. My point is that, unless I'm all alone here, there are probably a lot of people who'd buy season tickets, or at least go to a handful of Mil. MLS matches, but don't go to amateur matches because they've never heard of Bavarians and Croatians. I'm guessing Milwaukee Kickers has something set up, but I couldn't tell you any other club teams in the area that I could go watch. Blame me for not researching Milwaukee's amateur soccer scene if you want, but don't assume that my not going to their games means I won't be going to MLS.

Along the same lines, we've got the Land O' Lakes Baseball League in the summer; what kind of attendance do they get for their games, especially championship games? That's not an indicator as to how well the Brewers draw.

[5x300games]

The answer is yes, and we probably should move on.

I don't mean to get grumpy about this, and you probably don't care if I do, but your premise just strikes me as so flawed that this discussion is pretty close to a waste of time.

If you want a team here, questions like mine need to be addressed. (Attacking the questioner is never good form, BTW.)

[5x300games]

I have great concern for the lack of support youth clubs and high school programs have shown the pro clubs that have tried to make it in Milwaukee thus far. I am also concerned about the lack of respect that clubs have for high school programs and visa versa.

OAW, I agree with your premise. I know there is lip service paid to the relationship between the Kickers and Wave, but I never see evidence of it.

[5x300games]

Bar league isn't the right term, but at the same time, I dare you to find any league similar to the Majors that draws thousands of fans in any city in the U.S.

You're not quite comparing apples to oranges. If your comparison was accurate, then there would be thousands of people at AAU Basketball and Semi-Pro Baseball and Football games too, all across the country.

Actually, the Admirals do pretty well for being a minor league hockey team. But, as far as the majors, I don't need a threshold of thousands like the Admirals draw. I'd settle for 500 but I'm not even seeing 1/10th of that...

[Pygmalion]

If you want a team here, questions like mine need to be addressed. (Attacking the questioner is never good form, BTW.)

You're right, and that's why I tried to qualify the grumpy side of my post.

But my basic frustration stems from the fact that we have enough of a time ahead of us convincing non-soccer fans to look on the positive side and when you show up with an argument that so intently looks at the glass as half empty it tends to get under the skin. Why cite the majors game as evidence of failure and not the high school game, that was packed, as a sign of potential success.

And the basic answer to your first question - Is MLS that much better? - is yes. Sure there are quality players on local majors sides but they're in many cases post college players who still want to play at a high level but who didn't make it to the A-League or MLS. Can somebody find some diamonds in the rough out there and is it exciting when a majors side steps it up in the US open? Sure. Bavarians have a stellar reputation. Croations, Aztecs, Serbians old Verdi sides have a rich history. Some of these clubs maintain immaculate fields and clubhouses and their communities revolve around the game. But it's those specific communities that more than likely will show up for those games. I saw no mention of the game you cite in the paper, nor on the news, nor anywhere else. How were the droves supposed to find this game, why would they necessarily care if they weren't attached to that community and how can you turn the resulting attendance into an indictment of potential MLS success?

If RSL can get close to 20,000 per game I'm thinking we can average at least above 12,000 and if the stadium is properly placed and marketed I have no problem believing many more.

By the by, I don't know if I'd call my previous post an "attack" and I may steer clear from a couple of other boards if you feel that's the case. I will stand by the statement that I think that the premise of this thread is flawed and that you defeat it yourself when you point out "packed high school games" and don't want to identify them as skilled local teams" and if you want me to qualify it with an "IMHO" that's fine.

[5x300games]

Two main reasons: Product and promotion.

Chicago Fire currently has 12 players with full national team experience. Advertising budget is in the hundreds of thousands of dollars. Milwaukee's MLS team will have similar talent and budgets.

Salt Lake's USL team averaged a couple hundred fans per game in 2004. RSL averaged more than 18,000 in 2005.

Others may want to go into more depth, but i think these simple facts should shed some light on this issue.

peter

Peter, thanks for your response. I am somewhat encouraged by the empirical data you presented regarding Salt Lake. Obviously, there are certain differences (competition for the sports entertainment dollar and climate come to mind) that work against Milwaukee in the comparison.

At the end of the day, I am not sure the same dynamics that enable SLC to average 18,000 per game exist here in Milwaukee.

However, I wish you well in your endeavor.

[5x300games]

Why cite the majors game as evidence of failure and not the high school game, that was packed, as a sign of potential success.
...
I saw no mention of the game you cite in the paper, nor on the news, nor anywhere else. How were the droves supposed to find this game, why would they necessarily care if they weren't attached to that community and how can you turn the resulting attendance into an indictment of potential MLS success?
...
I don't know if I'd call my previous post an "attack" and I may steer clear from a couple of other boards if you feel that's the case. I will stand by the statement that I think that the premise of this thread is flawed and that you defeat it yourself when you point out "packed high school games" and don't want to identify them as skilled local teams" and if you want me to qualify it with an "IMHO" that's fine.

Majors vs High School - Talent level of the majors is far higher. Yet, their crowd was hardly a fraction of what the high school kids had. Obviously, there is "town pride" to account for in the high school tournament. However, if there is some "grass roots" movement afoot among soccer die-hards in the area, it's certainly not evident in supporting the teams that are currently the best in the area.

No mention of the game - My point exactly. Newspapers cover what there is support for. I do not understand how MLS is justified when the top club teams get zero coverage. Even the Wave is relegated to the back pages of the sports section, and I think they have a GREAT product that appeals to both soccer and non-soccer people.

Regarding your "attack" - If you had read my title you would have seen that I do support a team here but I have questions about its viability. You took that as being negative. If this project can't handle some critical questioning, then perhaps it truly is not viable...

[NORML]

I don't see an MLS Milwaukee team having trouble drawing fans. According to some fans of the Rampage and Wave United, one of the reasons for their weak attendance numbers is the close proximity to Chicago. People would rather support and follow the Fire than a USL side.

Of course I'm not saying that was the reason for the downfall of the two USL teams just pointing out that there are soccer fans in the Milwaukee area who would rather spend their money on the highest level of soccer they can.

[fclalala]

However, if there is some "grass roots" movement afoot among soccer die-hards in the area, it's certainly not evident in supporting the teams that are currently the best in the area.

The club teams may be the best teams currently in the area, but they still are just amatuer sides. There is no way to gauge the potential of a proffesional team by comparing it to the attendance of amatuer teams. If this were true, Major League Baseball would gauge potential markets by the size of crowds at the best softball games in the area.