Youth football - what do you know?

[mikev12]

:( Recently read on some USA web sites the following:-

"Win at all costs mentality drives a large number of boys (60% by 14 yrs) from the game"

"The longer boys played soccer the less moral they tested on the moral values of honesty, justice and responsibility"

If you are involved in youth soccer in Scotland, ireland or Wales would flike to know any of your views. Scotland arent producing the stars they did in the 40's, 50's, 60's and 7o's WHY

[nach0king]

Well, you can trot out the old reasons: kids don't play much anymore now that we're in an affluent society with video games, Braehead and the other horrible aspects of beautiful, beautiful modernity. Kids are fat because of McDonalds. Kids can't play because local pitches are being sold to build evil corporate headquarters; even if there IS a pitch it's full of dirty needles and dirtier old men.

But surely these things affect the rest of the Western world as well?

Maybe we're not getting that much worse but the rest of the world is getting better. The fact that TV is saturated by the best club and international football in the world - which, naturally, we compare to our domestic game - probably makes us look worse than we are, as well.

I know a guy who plays youth football for an SFL team and I think he's very well adjusted, and his team, overall, is the same.

[LesO'lafatselik]

I read recently that a smaller percentage of Scottish boys play football than in just about any other country in Europe. When you also consider that we're one of the smallest countries, there just aren't enough kids playing these days.

I also dispute the myth that there was ever this great conveyor belt of talent being produced in the past. Sure a lot more Scots played in the top English league but that was because it was pretty rare for the English clubs to buy overseas players in those days, not because there was a great mine of Scottish talent which was superior to anything abroad.

What have Scotland ever done at international level? While the team did qualify for 5 World Cups in a row, they never managed to get past the first round. They hardly set the heather on fire even in those so-called halcyon days. If you walked into a bar in Brazil or Italy and asked them to name some truly world class Scottish players from the past, how many names do you honestly think they would come up with?

[el_urchinio]

It's not that Scotland got worse, it's that other teams got better. Teams like Turkey, which 30 years ago would've fielded a team of semi-professionals against Scotland can now boast of having players in top European leagues.

5-6 years ago, when Scotland were playing in the same group as Croatia in the WC qualifiers, a friend of mine who supports Scotland asked me what I thought Scotland's chances were against Croatia. I told him not very high. He asked why and I told him to look at the squads of two teams and where the players play their club football. Next to Croatian players it said Bayern Munich, Juventus, Inter Milan. Next to Scottish players it said Leicester, Hibs and Preston. 5 years later and things haven't changed. Which Scot holds a regular place for a top team in Europe?

[Scottish_Morton]

Scottish football is worse than it used to be. Of course other countries have got better and Scotland never had a multitude of talent but we did have some real world class players. However, we just don't have guys like, Law, Dalgleish, Jordan, Bremner, Baxter, Hansen, Souness, McLeish, Miller, Strachan, Johnstone etc anymore. It was only 20 years ago Aberdeen were cup winners cup champions and Dundee utd were winning in places like the Nou Camp. Anyone around Scottish football know it is not as talented as it used to be. Development in other countries have made us look worse but that just highlights our own problems more than anything else.

Our own problems starting with the fact that kids just don't play football as much as they used to. It was all they could do for entertainment, they would play anywhere they could anytime they could. We live in a different culture now, one with home entertainment and 'no ball games' signs. Other countries worked hard at grass roots level, scandinavia is a great example, they all used to be whipping boys. We have stood by and watched things slide, partly because we just don't have the money in this country.

A city like Glasgow, with a life expectancy of 69, is poor enough not to have enough sports facilties but not poor enough for every young kid to be playing on the streets. We seem to have been stuck in between for a long time. The good news is that things areimproving IMO. There seems to have been an explosion of 5-a-side pitches and coaching programmes for youngsters. Which is definatley a good start. We need more youth academies though, we need to move young players on from having good potential to being good players. Having 1 youth academy is not enough when a country ike England have dozens.

[WillieB]

Youth development in Scotland is pitiful.

The rest of the world has moved on and we have gone backwards. We are still using the same process that produced the Laws, Dalglishes etc. however the rest of the world have better youth development programs than we have and are now focusing on youth development whereas we still have a win at all costs mentality at the younger age groups. The only thing that has changed is the introduction of SSGs at teh younger age groups.

I know of "coaches" who are holding trials and selecting players as young as 6 years old, and this is to play non-competitive 7 a-side football.

Too many "coaches" are on big ego trips and think the game is all about them.

Someone made a comment that there aren't as many kids playing nowadays and that we are a small country. In my area alone (Hamilton/Motherwell/East Kilbride) there were at least 200 8yos playing this morning. Multiply that by all the areas in Scotland and all the age groups up to say 13s, how many kids does that come to? A good few thousand - so how many kids do we need playing football to get enough to make a decent Scotland team?

The youth football structure in Scotland needs a complete overhaul yet the SFA are just tinkering with it. What they need to do is start with a blank sheet of paper.

All anyone needs to do to be "qualified" to run a youth football team is attend, yes attend, a six hour course and that's them - they are now a "coach".

There isn't a structured development plan, no ongoing coach assessment, no ongoing coach education program, no coach mentoring, and we wonder why we don't produce quality players - it's our own fault.

Stand and watch a kids match and listen to the inane comments coming from the grown ups at the side of the park, defenders being encouraged to clear their lines and boot the ball up the park and we then wonder why first touch at the senior level is abysmal. Any kid with a bit of skill is told to pass the ball or else - and we wonder why we don't have any Jimmy Johnstones running around.

Listen to the "coaches" who constantly bark instructions to the kids, and I'm talking 7 and 8 yos here, because they think the kids can't make their own decisions. How can a kid learn to make a decision if they are constantly being instructed what to do? Kids can make decisions, maybe not the same one as an adult would make but they can make decisions. Problem is too many of them aren't allowed to. I know of coaches who have been standing at the side of teh pitch barking out the same instructions to the same kids game after game, year after year. Don't they realise the message isn't getting through?

There is also too much adult interference - give the game back to the kids. Adults should stand at the side of the pitch with their mouths firmly shut, if i had my way all adults would be put iin a sound-proof bubble so that the kids could get on with their game.

In the past every successful English team had a nucleus of Scottish players, not any more. The Scottish International team was made up of more Anglos that home based players - not any more. How many Scottish players are playing outside Scotland? Very few.

If the likes of Holland and France can produce quality players then so can we.

Scottish football's problems are of their own making and unless we do something soon our game is likely to deteriorate even further. Our solution over the past few seasons has been to sign foreign players, now we can't even get any decent foreign players to play here.

We need to stop the rot or we will very soon be a third country nation as far as football is concerned.

[Teso Dos Bichos]

Which Scot holds a regular place for a top team in Europe?

Fletcher is the only one.

[nach0king]

And after the summer he probably won't be holding that place anymore.

Plus, I'd define a "top" European team as one that regularly makes the 2nd stage of the Champions League. As of this season, Man Utd. will no longer be such a team.

[el_urchinio]

Fletcher is the only one.

Precisely. I mean, can you see any Scottish player starting for Juve, or Barca, or Bayern or Werder or Lyon?

[nach0king]

Werder aren't a top Euro team either :)

[Teso Dos Bichos]

Plus, I'd define a "top" European team as one that regularly makes the 2nd stage of the Champions League. As of this season, Man Utd. will no longer be such a team.

They hold the record for getting through in Europe and are still in it. One season does not erase all of that.

[Scottish_Morton]

Precisely. I mean, can you see any Scottish player starting for Juve, or Barca, or Bayern or Werder or Lyon?

Actually yes I can. Craig Gordon in a couple of years will be playing for a top European club in a couple of years. Although it's more likely to be a team like Man U. Most Scots don't like to travel too far!

Apart from that I think everyone will agree with your point. Many Scottish players could play and are playing at the level just below that though.

[nach0king]

They hold the record for getting through in Europe and are still in it. One season does not erase all of that.

You're quite right, but I think this is the start of a very slippery slope.

Who knows, though: in the ensuing years of domestic mediocrity they might well "do a Liverpool" and win against all the odds. I don't see it myself, though.

[el_urchinio]

Apart from that I think everyone will agree with your point. Many Scottish players could play and are playing at the level just below that though.

Yes, but the difference between the two levels is tremendous. Barry Ferguson and Steven Gerrard are worlds apart. One's a good player and one's a world class player. Ditto McCullough and say Zlatan.

It is only one step, but the gap is huge.

[Scottish_Morton]

Yes, but the difference between the two levels is tremendous. Barry Ferguson and Steven Gerrard are worlds apart. One's a good player and one's a world class player. Ditto McCullough and say Zlatan.

It is only one step, but the gap is huge.

Yes but Wigan are second in the Premiership and Liverpool are ninth :rolleyes:. Not that I would want Lee McCulloch anywhere near the Scotland team!

The gap is a big one between these levels, I know. Scotland aren't a top world side though, we're probably a third class world side. What we need is to develop youth like the Scandinavians have. They have come so far the last last couple of decades. They developed from the bottom up and that's what we need to do too.

For the record we drew twice with Croatia in that campaign.

Also I think the last player we had at a top European contenantal side was Paul Lambert was won the CL with Dortmund in the 90s. I think often Scotland suffer because so many of our players stay on the British Isles. If you look at Scandanavian and Eastern European countries their good young players leave for bigger leagues in Europe at a young age.

[Scottish_Morton]

Lest make no mistake about it, Scotland have declined greatly. Here's just a random Scotland team from the '82 WC:

Alan Rough
Frank Gray
Graeme Souness - won 5 League titles, 3 European Cups and 4 League Cups
Alan Hansen - won 8 League titles, 3 European Cups and 3 League Cups and 2 FA cups
Willie Miller - Won cup winner cup with aberdeen
Gordon Strachan - Won cup winner cup with aberdeen, played for Man U
John Wark - Won PFA Players' Player of the Year in 1981
John N Robertson - European cup winner with Notts Forest
Dave Narey
Joe Jordan- Played for Leeds, Man U and Milan (also Morton of course :)), European PotY
Steve Archibald - Played at Barcelona

Here's the '78 team:

Alan Rough
Willie Donachie
Martin Buchan
Bruce Rioch
Kenny Dalglish
Joe Jordan
Asa Hartford
Stuart Kennedy
Tom Forsyth
Archie Gemmill
Graeme Souness

And the '74 team:

David Harvey
Sandy Jardine
Danny McGrain
Billy Bremner
Martin Buchan
Jim Holton
Kenny Dalglish
Joe Jordan
David Hay
Peter Lorimer

And a very famous team from '67:

Ronnie Simpson
Tommy Gemmell
Eddie McCreadie
John Greig
Ronnie McKinnon
Jim Baxter
William Wallace
Billy Bremner
Jim McCalliog
Denis Law
Bobby Lennox
Willie Morgan

Wherever you look their is English league winner and European cup winners. Players playing at the very top.

Now lets look at the Scotland side from our last international:

Gordon
Dailly
Alexander
Pressley
Webster
Weir
Fletcher
Hartley
O'Connor
Quashie
McCann

The rest of the world may have gotten better be we are a hell of alot worse!

[WillieB]

Also I think the last player we had at a top European contenantal side was Paul Lambert was won the CL with Dortmund in the 90s. I think often Scotland suffer because so many of our players stay on the British Isles. If you look at Scandanavian and Eastern European countries their good young players leave for bigger leagues in Europe at a young age.

Isn't, or wasn't, Scott Booth playing in Germany?

As for the Barry Ferguson/Steven Gerrard comparison.

BF made a mistake coming back to Scotland as he is playing against poorer opposition every week and isn't challenged fully in every game. Maybe Blackburn was the wrong team to go to however he should have stayed in England longer.

I believe one of the biggest problems with players in Scottish football, and the same reason Scottish clubs struggle in Europe, is that in Scotland players get away with slack play, they don't get punished for mistakes as much as they would do if they were playing in a more competitive environment. By playing at a higher level players will need to be quicker and sharper (not necessarily speed but quickness of play and speed of thought) and will improve, provided they are not out of their depth. Perhaps the gap would be reversed if Barry Ferguson played for Liverpool and Stephen Gerrard played for Rangers

I think the days of the Brian Laudrups and Henrik Larrsons playing in Scotland are long gone. We will only see second class foreigners now - and maybe the odd irishman playing out his days.

[nach0king]

Isn't, or wasn't, Scott Booth playing in Germany?

Signed for BVB but didn't get a game, went onto Utrecht then Twente in Holland, then Aberdeen again. Think he's either rotting in the Aberdeen reserves or retired.

Steven Tweed went from Dundee to MSV Duisburg. Think he's also retired. Up until around early 2004 he was a regular first team player there.

Charlie Miller and Robbie Winters play for Brann Bergen in Norway. Winters in particular is doing very well over there.

Think there's another ex-SPL player in Holland somewhere, and I think some oddity plying his trade in Italy, but we don't really have that many exports.

[Scottish_Morton]

Jamie Smith played in Holland last season, Derek McIness and Ian Anderson played at Toulouse a few years ago. Brewster played in Greece for a few years.

There have been a few here and there to play abroad but Lambert is the only real success at a high level.

[el_urchinio]

The gap is a big one between these levels, I know. Scotland aren't a top world side though, we're probably a third class world side. What we need is to develop youth like the Scandinavians have. They have come so far the last last couple of decades. They developed from the bottom up and that's what we need to do too.

Also I think the last player we had at a top European contenantal side was Paul Lambert was won the CL with Dortmund in the 90s. I think often Scotland suffer because so many of our players stay on the British Isles. If you look at Scandanavian and Eastern European countries their good young players leave for bigger leagues in Europe at a young age.

Lambert's German adventure wasn't that long, but it was certainly a succesful one, and on top of that, it certainly made him a better player. Most of the Scottish players who went to the continent in the last 10 years weren't exactly cream of the crop, but it's hard to argue that it was detrimental to their career. From Brian O'Neill to Craig Brewster, they all returned with valuable experience.

This is why I think the mentality where England is the logical option for a player who's outgrown SPL needs to change. I mean, Barry Ferguson goes to Blackburn, gives it a shot and comes back to Scotland seemingly at peace with the fact that he couldn't cut it in EPL. Why not try Germany, France, or even Italy? I'm not talking Bayern, Lyon or Juve, but why not Cologne, Nantes or Udinese?