Why didn't they relocate to Toronto?

[timpcrk]

MLS has two teams, Kansas City and San Jose, that they are actively trying to relocate. Why didn't they move one of them to Toronto instead of giving them an expansion team? Shouldn't they make sure all of their current franchises are stable before expanding? On top of this, MLS foolishly believes they have to expand 2 by 2 and will probably place an expansion franchise in a city that is not ready simply to pair it with Toronto. This is going to hurt the league.
Current struggling teams:
Kansas City Wizards
San Jose Earthquakes
Doubtful long-term:
CD Chivas USA (Los Angeles has been the only city that has shown support for one franchise, creating competition was foolish and will cause the second team to stuggle, see LA Clippers)
Unknown successfulness:
Toronto (they don't draw any fans for their USL team or any sport that isn't played on ice)
Not-ready city doomed for failure:
To be determined (will probably be Milwaukee which doesn't support the two professional teams it has now)

This is a case of over expansion just like the NHL did in the 1990s. Anyone know how that league is doing?

[Sundevil9]

MLS has two teams, Kansas City and San Jose, that they are actively trying to relocate. Why didn't they move one of them to Toronto instead of giving them an expansion team? Shouldn't they make sure all of their current franchises are stable before expanding? On top of this, MLS foolishly believes they have to expand 2 by 2 and will probably place an expansion franchise in a city that is not ready simply to pair it with Toronto. This is going to hurt the league.
Current struggling teams:
Kansas City Wizards
San Jose Earthquakes
Doubtful long-term:
CD Chivas USA (Los Angeles has been the only city that has shown support for one franchise, creating competition was foolish and will cause the second team to stuggle, see LA Clippers)
Unknown successfulness:
Toronto (they don't draw any fans for their USL team or any sport that isn't played on ice)
Not-ready city doomed for failure:
To be determined (will probably be Milwaukee which doesn't support the two professional teams it has now)

This is a case of over expansion just like the NHL did in the 1990s. Anyone know how that league is doing?

Toronto will have different roster rules than the US MLS teams. If they move SJ to TO, then Onstad and DDR become domestic players, and the rest are internationals, they could keep up to 6 of those players, leaving the rest to the waiver wire or trades. So there'll only be 8 returning players.

On top of that, you wouldn't be able to move some front office folks. You'd effectively make an expansion team.

San Jose's problem isn't on the field or in the stands (though a few more fans can't hurt) but rather in their stadium position and the current operators are getting tired of their long term temporary stewardship of the team. It's a good market with good fans.

KC is a different story. They need fans and financial backers, one would hope that somebody can step forward and help out. The market is largely untapped and they'll likely get another year to give it a go.

Is MLS expanding a la hockey? No, hockey expanded closer to how NASL did. Chasing the easy expansion dollars to compensate for their own mismanagement.

[timpcrk]

Toronto will have different roster rules than the US MLS teams. If they move SJ to TO, then Onstad and DDR become domestic players, and the rest are internationals, they could keep up to 6 of those players, leaving the rest to the waiver wire or trades. So there'll only be 8 returning players.

On top of that, you wouldn't be able to move some front office folks. You'd effectively make an expansion team.

San Jose's problem isn't on the field or in the stands (though a few more fans can't hurt) but rather in their stadium position and the current operators are getting tired of their long term temporary stewardship of the team. It's a good market with good fans.

KC is a different story. They need fans and financial backers, one would hope that somebody can step forward and help out. The market is largely untapped and they'll likely get another year to give it a go.

Is MLS expanding a la hockey? No, hockey expanded closer to how NASL did. Chasing the easy expansion dollars to compensate for their own mismanagement.


How is "effectively making an expansion team" an argument against relocating instead of "actually" making an expansion team? I don't follow your logic. Also, how is starting a roster with at least 8-10 players worse than starting with 0? Again your logic escapes me.

I am going to disagree that San Jose is a good market, it's not. If the people there aren't supporting a two-time champion, what will they support? A new SSS in San Francisco might be a good market though.

I am also goint to disagree that Kansas City is a good but untapped market. They have won a championship and, until he got fed up, had a good owner. Don't blame it on the stadium, either. People in KC love Arrowhead Stadium, but they don't love soccer. A move across state to a new SSS in St. Louis would probably be a success though.

[Captain Canuck]

Toronto (they don't draw any fans for their USL team or any sport that isn't played on ice)


The New York Centaurs of the APSL (the precursor to the A-League, the pre-cursor to the USL) didn't draw either before MLS came to New York. Should we be concerned about Metrostar attendance as a result?

Not sure where you are getting this stuff about Toronto only drawing for sports played on ice. Lacrosse isn't played on ice, the last time I checked....

[USAClash]

I am going to disagree that San Jose is a good market, it's not. If the people there aren't supporting a two-time champion, what will they support? A new SSS in San Francisco might be a good market though.



Garbage. There isn't talk of SJ moving because of its fans. It's because of the ownership situation and the poor outlook for a future SSS. It would be a shame if SJ does move because they've been developing a pretty passionate following.

[NASLNUT]

MLS has two teams, Kansas City and San Jose, that they are actively trying to relocate. Why didn't they move one of them to Toronto instead of giving them an expansion team? Shouldn't they make sure all of their current franchises are stable before expanding? On top of this, MLS foolishly believes they have to expand 2 by 2 and will probably place an expansion franchise in a city that is not ready simply to pair it with Toronto. This is going to hurt the league.
Current struggling teams:
Kansas City Wizards
San Jose Earthquakes
Doubtful long-term:
CD Chivas USA (Los Angeles has been the only city that has shown support for one franchise, creating competition was foolish and will cause the second team to stuggle, see LA Clippers)
Unknown successfulness:
Toronto (they don't draw any fans for their USL team or any sport that isn't played on ice)
Not-ready city doomed for failure:
To be determined (will probably be Milwaukee which doesn't support the two professional teams it has now)

This is a case of over expansion just like the NHL did in the 1990s. Anyone know how that league is doing?

I see some shoddy research on your part.

Raptors draw over 16k per game with a Horrible team
Blue Jays are at about 25K
Argos Football Clsoe to 40K
Rock Lacrosse 16K

So tell me what MAJOR League sport does Toronto not draw well for.

As for the Lynx, minor league , Marketing budget for Lynx for total season 395.00 Canadian Dollars.

[Sundevil9]

How is "effectively making an expansion team" an argument against relocating instead of "actually" making an expansion team? I don't follow your logic. Also, how is starting a roster with at least 8-10 players worse than starting with 0? Again your logic escapes me.


Because both of the teams in question of ten years of growth and maturity. Both on the rosters, and in the offices. You'd throw that away? I wouldn't.

I'm not in favor of throwing a team away in order to place one across the border. If, say, SJ or KC move to Houston, they can take a fair bit of their infrastructure with them. Front offices personnel may move with the team, and a majority of the roster, coaches and front office personnel will go.

If the team goes to TO, then the roster will be gutted, and a percentage of coaches and front office personnel would follow the team.

From the Toronto perspective, it's really no different, but from a league perspective, it's completely different. Right now, the league has 12 teams. 10 established and two expansion. In two years, when TO comes online, there will be 14 teams, 10 established, 2 three year old teams, and two expansion. You'd trade one established team for an expansion team....thus weakening the league.

[timpcrk]

Toronton is the 4th largest market in North America, but

Raptors average in bottom half of league.
Blue Jays average is 23 of 30.
Argos 40k would be terrible for NFL team, does CFL get exception?

You guys do have me on the lacrosse, but I can see that. Lacrosse is very similar to hockey. Soccer, however, is not.

Despite all of this, I never said soccer would fail in Toronto. I said it is unknown if a team there will succeed. I do think Toronto is a better MLS city than San Jose or Kansas City and the only city I thought it would be a good idea to move a team to. My post was against expansion, not Toronto.

[timpcrk]

Garbage. There isn't talk of SJ moving because of its fans. It's because of the ownership situation and the poor outlook for a future SSS. It would be a shame if SJ does move because they've been developing a pretty passionate following.

If San Jose is such a success, why doesn't anyone want to purchase the team? AEG sold DC pretty quickly. And face it dude, San Jose is not a Major League city. It's only the 3rd most important city on the bay. I can see a team in the area, but not in San Jose.

P.S. I also never understood the team's nickname. Why would they name it after a natural disaster that regulary kills people in the region? It's like the Miami Hurricanes and the Iowa State Cyclones, I don't understand those names.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Argos 40k would be terrible for NFL team, does CFL get exception?

There's a big difference between the CFL and NFL and I'm not talking about 12 players on the field, longer and wider fields with bigger endzones and the rouge. :rolleyes: The level of play is significantly lower. In the 70s the CFL was still huge in Toronto but one theory is that local TV blackouts killed off interest in the league amongst the younger generation and a lot of people began to look south to get their football fix instead. There are a lot of Ontario plates in the parking lots at Buffalo Bills games. A Toronto NFL team would sell out the Rogers Centre no problem. In fact they'd almost certainly have to build a bigger stadium.

[CL_2004]

Toronton is the 4th largest market in North America, but

Raptors average in bottom half of league.
Blue Jays average is 23 of 30.Argos 40k would be terrible for NFL team, does CFL get exception?

You guys do have me on the lacrosse, but I can see that. Lacrosse is very similar to hockey. Soccer, however, is not.

Despite all of this, I never said soccer would fail in Toronto. I said it is unknown if a team there will succeed. I do think Toronto is a better MLS city than San Jose or Kansas City and the only city I thought it would be a good idea to move a team to. My post was against expansion, not Toronto.

these teams are playing horrible as of lately that explains why attentandence is low.

[CL_2004]

Toronto's USL Team(The Lynx) don't draw crowds because the team is horrible(last place) and its not the top division in North America and everyone knows it. :D

In Toronto, we want high-calibre, winning professional teams playing in the top flight leagues. The Toronto Lynx do not meet any of those requirements and that's why people ignore them and act as if they do not exist.

[Blizzard]

Toronto's USL Team(The Lynx) don't draw crowds because the team is horrible(last place) and its not the top division in North America and everyone knows it. :D

In Toronto, we want high-calibre, winning professional teams playing in the top flight leagues. The Toronto Lynx do not meet any of those requirements and that's why people ignore them and act as if they do not exist.

The Lynx are PDL level organization and that is how they should be judged.

[timpcrk]

Toronto's USL Team(The Lynx) don't draw crowds because the team is horrible(last place) and its not the top division in North America and everyone knows it. :D

In Toronto, we want high-calibre, winning professional teams playing in the top flight leagues. The Toronto Lynx do not meet any of those requirements and that's why people ignore them and act as if they do not exist.


So how will you except an expansion team that finishes dead last?

Anyway I still said Toronto should get an MLS team, I just said that they should get a relocated team, not an expansion team.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

So how will you except an expansion team that finishes dead last?

Accept is the word you are looking for, dude. How do you know it won't be the Chicago Fire scenario? Toronto would have access to a pool of Canadian players that is largely untapped by MLS if everything goes according to plan this week with the final pieces of paperwork that need to be processed before the deal is formally finalized.

[Blizzard]

Accept is the word you are looking for, dude. How do you know it won't be the Chicago Fire scenario? Toronto would have access to a pool of Canadian players that is largely untapped by MLS if everything goes according to plan this week with the final pieces of paperwork that need to be processed before the deal is formally finalized.

... and even if they should finish last, for an expansion team, it is excusable. The key, beyond the effort of the team and a glimmer of future improvement, will be the second year and whether or not the team improves into a contender for a play-off spot.

[timpcrk]

... and even if they should finish last, for an expansion team, it is excusable. The key, beyond the effort of the team and a glimmer of future improvement, will be the second year and whether or not the team improves into a contender for a play-off spot.

Man, I hate it when I make typos. Thanks for the correction.

All I really mean is this:

MLS currently has two unsettled franchises. By expanding they increase this number of franchise by two, at least in the short term. Nobody knows whether soccer will succeed in Toronto or not. We will only know after 3-5 years. I thought MLS would succeed in Florida, but two franchises failed.

My question is why didn't they relocate either San Jose or Kansas City to Toronto (which I believe is a good market) instead of expanding. MLS is endagering the stability of the league.

[arak0r]

well toronto isnt coming around till 2007 anyways. theyve got a decent amount of time to get everything set before toronto.