Learning French

[quentinc]

I realize this isn't exactly on-topic, but I feel like it's relevant to this forum. Besides, I can get more help here through the large concentration of native french speakers than anywhere else.

I'm trying to learn French, and, although I've been messing around with it for a while, I didn't really get serious until about a week ago. I wanted to create this thread as a place to get advice, help and encouragement from people who know the language best, and also from people (like ganu) who learned it as a second language. I should preface by saying that I'm pretty well acquainted with spanish, which helps alot with learning french, as many things are similar between the two languages. The biggest hurdle for me is the pronounciations, and although I'm getting better, I'll probably be asking for help on that alot.

But right now, I have one question:

In spanish (and french as well), there are six pronouns for which a verb should be conjugated (I, you, he/she/it, we, you (plural), they). However, in spanish, outside of certain regions of Spain, they don't use a separate conjugation for you(plural). Instead, they simply give it the same conjugation as the "they" form of the verb. So basically, since we're taught the Latin American form of Spanish, we virtually ignore that conjugation (justifiably, since we only live about 150 miles from the Mexican border). So, my question is...Is it typical in certain French-speaking countries to conjugate for all six forms of the verb, or do they speak it similarly as Latin Americans do in Spanish, where they take out that one conjugation? Also, if there are only certain regions that do it that way, which ones are they?

Thanks in advance for any help.

Also, I guess this could work the other way, with those learning English (from French) getting help too. I've already seen some grammatical errors in the posts of Pierre-Henri and Nanbawan that a grammar prick like me would love to fix;)

[guignol]

if you say vous you use the corresponding conjugation.

cheers on learning french; i'm subscribed to this thread and will try to help all i can.

here's an excellent tip: comic books. the pictures help you understand the dialogue, so you don't need to get out a dictionary 20 times a page.

be selective at first though: asterix is full of puns that make it a bit tough, and there's some dodgy spelling and slang (not as bad as titeuf or lots of others though)

tintin is excellent, you'll pick up a french that is a bit dusty but very pure and refined. you won't hear many people in real life saying "saperlipopette!", but if you use it, people won't think you're weird, they'll just know you read tintin!

the series les sept boules vertes will also give you a very refined and yet colorful french.

[Pierre-Henri]

Avoid the last "Asterix" tomes, however. Since the death of Goscinny, they utterly suck. I'd suggest the "Gaston Lagaffe" series, tomes 1 to 14. Same here : after the death of Franquin (tome 14), they suck too. Original adventures of "Spirou et Fantasio", by Franquin again, are also pretty good.

About pronouns ... ow ... ow ... ow. Where to start ?

Je, tu, il (elle, on), nous, vous, ils (elles).

"Vous" is either plural form (you+someone else), either a polite way to talk to a single person. Basic rule : you naturally say "tu" to people who belong to the same social group than yourself ; you naturally say "vous" to people from other groups. For example, you should say "tu" to another fellow student (even if you don't know him/her), but you'll say "vous" to your teacher. However, correct setting requires a lot of practice.

"Nous" (me+someone else) is less and less used in spoken french, replaced by "on". "on est allé au concert" actually means "we went ...".
So, beware, "on" is NOT a translation for "it" (neutral gender doesn't exist in French). "On" either means
- undefined pronoun : "on a encore augmenté les impôts", which vaguely means "other people, the governement, politicians, someone..."
- a colloquial substitute for "we", very frequent in spoken french.

PS : working about my english prepositions is within my "to do list" for 1991. ;)

[guignol]

good explanation p-h.

and bringing up tutoiement and vouvoiement is important too, since that is where d450 will see a big difference with latin american habits.

using vous (vouvoiement) shouldn't be thought of as cold or rude. on the contrary, i hate being called tu by someone i don't know well.

i just started addressing my neighbor with tu a couple of weeks ago, after 7 years of riding the elevator together, seeing each other at the market, even playing football together. if we had started almost immediately (like many french do these days) we would have missed something: the special moment when the question "nous pourrions nous tutoyer après tout ce temps, n'est-ce pas?" gets the answer, "oui, bien sûr! on n'est quand même pas des sauvages!" it's a warm feeling, a kind of formal declaration of friendship. i have another neighbor who started tu'ing me the day we moved in... i'm glad i never responded in kind because he's really not the kind of fellow i want as a friend.

my son just started junior high school, and some of his teachers use vous now. at first he was surprised but now he likes it. he's a big boy now after all!

[Pierre-Henri]

Yes, social positionning is more important in France than in other cultural areas. The "vous" as polite pronoun doesn't exist in canadian or african french, for example.

I may be an old fashioned rancid conservative, but I like the "vous" too. When I was a teacher, most of my colleagues used to say "tu" to their highschool students, but wanted to be "vouvoyés" in return. Petty behaviour, isn't it ? A good "vous" can be a showing of mutual respect, and doesn't prevent from being friendly.

However, when you're a teenager, saying "vous" to other teenagers will certify you as a jerk.

[gaijin]

What's strange is that I have friends who often slip from 'vous' to 'tu' from one sentence into the next....

Hein?

Having two forms of 'you' is something of a novelty in the world of english today. Although as guignol says there is a lot of social effects on the those two words... I for one, will always use 'vous' as a rule of thumb unless I know the person really well. If they use 'tu', then I'll use it.

Sometimes you may want to seem extra polite and say 'vous', but then your over zealousness to fit in and seem nice could be seen as cheekiness. :eek:

[gaijin]

Another novelty of French is having two different forms of 'yes'.

There is 'oui' the most basic form used in nearly all cases and there is 'si' which is used when answering a negative statement or question.

[gaijin]

We should have a learning French thread, were all of your French grammar questions can be answered by our team of expe.......



...ceptionally good posters.

[Warren Van Orden]

If your satellite or cable company has it, TV5 is worth gettting.

In addition to the Saturday Ligue 1 match, they have a lot of films, mostly French language with English subtitles. Many excellent films, few so awful that they aren't worth sitting through to hear the language and read the translation.

They also have rather good news every 2 hours for 10 to 30 minutes, lots of interview shows, and then there's the junk... Well worth the ten bucks a month.

[Breakwood]

I'm currently in Grade 12 (last year of high school) and I'm in French Immersion, which means I take nearly half of my classes in French. I'm planning to go to a university in Toronto, which is bilingual. I really want to be in a place where I can be with people who speak french. It also turns out in the 3rd year of University at this school I can go study a year in France, the bonus is some of the schools are in Lyon (Allez L'OL). I think its a very important that a person can learn as many languages as possible. I will be looking at this thread alot aswell to see if I can pick up any tips.

[guignol]

i lived 6 months in québec, out in the countryside of the south bank of the st.laurent. the most curious thing was québecois swearing: it's all church related. a mild oath might be baptême, or hostie... if you're really steamed its tabernacle! and just like english dang or darn, there's tabernouche, taberhouette... for people who don't use bad words.

[Pierre-Henri]

Funny that, are we all moving to Canada ? Thanks to excellent research policy by our government :( , I'm currently looking for a job there myself. So far, I've been in contact with Dalhousie (Halifax). Hope I will convince them I can actually do some research, if they are really naive.

Is Toronto really bilingual ? I thought McGill, in Montréal, was the first bilingual University in Canada. Toronto U ? 60 000 students, you won't feel alone, pal.

Canada, our last best hope for peace.

[the shelts]

P-H, no unfortunately Toronto is not bi-lingual. Everything is in English, however French is the known 2nd language. If you wanted to you could easily survive in French only but if you went to a restaurant you may have to wait for a French speaker to show up.

However, New Brunswick is bi-lingual and you will see people kind of slipping between both languages

Lets allez to the bar but sans l'auto parce que its a nice day.

[gaijin]

Franglais :cool:

[the shelts]

C'est vrai, friend.

[ilv2]

i lived 6 months in québec, out in the countryside of the south bank of the st.laurent. the most curious thing was québecois swearing: it's all church related. a mild oath might be baptême, or hostie... if you're really steamed its tabernacle! and just like english dang or darn, there's tabernouche, taberhouette... for people who don't use bad words.

quebec is an incredible place to visit/live in/be at etc.

try the poutine.

[quentinc]

I've heard that the Quebec form of French is more pure, is this true?

And Quebec City is a really nice place. I enjoyed it more than Montreal.

[fishbiproduct]

I've heard that the Quebec form of French is more pure, is this true?



Well, not really.
Languages evolve:
_there's English such as spoken in England,
English spoken in the US, in Australia, etc..
They all develop in different directions, acquire
their own vocabulary, etc, etc (and I'll ignore
differences in languages in one country according
to regions, cities, etc)
Same thing for French. It evolved differently in
various French-speaking country. To me, Quebec-
French is spoken with a ..well, very different, nasal
accent. They do use words that we don't/ haven't
used in a long time in France-French, they also have
created their own vocabulary, etc.
So, more "pure"? No, different.

[Pierre-Henri]

Quebecois use far less english words than we do. They tend to translate more of them.

[ilv2]

for example the quebecois use "ARRÊT" on their stop signs rather than "STOP"

but in general, i'm not sure, i've talked to a lot of people from qc (montreal mainly) and they mix and match french and english all the time. Logically, as larger percentage of city dwellers are bilingual in quebec than in france, it would make more sense that the former would employ anglicisms and english slang more frequently. That said, it's been a while seen i've last been to france (although that will change next semester).


And Quebec City is a really nice place. I enjoyed it more than Montreal.
yea me too, but both are great.

oh. one last note. Canadian chicks = ugly. Filles/Femmes/Nanas quebecoises = HOT.