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Motterman
04 Nov 2005, 12:23 PM
Hello, my friends. I've been stewing over this decision for days now... I've even written posts coming close to this, but have chosen to delete them, instead of posting. It's a tough decision. You've staked your own reputation, flamed people for disagreeing, insulted their knowledge of football, etc. on a player making it at the club you love and support. Invariably, the day finally comes when you can't deny the signs that have been written on the wall... and this, my friends, is where I have to pause.

I've followed Darren Fletcher's career since he first had sniffs at getting some minutes in the first team. He came highly touted as the next big thing, (Beckham's name was even bandied about for a time) and despite the gangling gait and smallish frame, it appeared that their just might be something special about this young lad. You hear about him leading the youth and reserve teams from the middle of the park, and you can't wait to see it happen on the big stage. But, alas, the boy is played on the wing, to "cut his teeth" in the day to day rigors of the Premiership. He struggles mightily as the wing position does not suit him at all, and he appears lost and over-run. How can a lad who struggles with the pace of the game isolated on the wing, ever get comfortable in the middle of all this madness on Saturday afternoons? You tell yourself, "Well, they don't all roll off the assembly line as Steven Gerrard." However, hidden in seemingly useless minutes on the pitch, there is invariably a pass or movement that gives you that hint of quality, just waiting to gush through. It's small, a tiny fraction, but it's there. You know it. "Just give him a game in 'his' position, for a change." However, he never does, and is left on the wing to flounder and earning a reputation among the United faithful that he's crap, rubbish, and only on the team because he's Scottish.

A year on, Fletcher starts to get moved into the middle, and forms a reputable partnership with Keane and settles into a roll where he's linking Keane/and the defence with Scholes/and the offence. The team looks good as Fletcher is doing the job he's asked to do. The probing passes are now 2 or 3 a game, but he's mostly in there to switch the point of attack. It appears he's under the instructions to keep possession and let the other players run the attack. Fletcher is injured, and United hit a patch of indifferent form. People are perplexed, as it's only Fletcher who's out and he rarely does anything noticeable. The team continues to struggle until Fletcher makes his return and all of the sudden, the team's form lifts. And until it's apparent that there's no catching Chelsea in the league, the team plays well, especially in the FA Cup where Fletch shines again, even in this "linking" role he's been playing.

Fast forward to this season. Keane is out, we're missing our rock solid left back, and our overlapping right back who's probably our best crosser. United are struggling to gain any width and seem bereft of ideas through the middle. Fletch is partnered with a defensive midfielder who's really a striker and just learning the position, and Scholes isn't a patch of his former self at present. It's almost as if Fletch is being asked to play the role he did last season as well as Keano and Scholes' roles!

Now, here's where I'm going to pick up from earlier.

I've given Fletcher support for over 2 years now, and I still think he can be a big player. He shows it when playing for Scotland, so it's there. Of course, that's part of the problem. He's not the same player for us, as he is for Scotland. This isn't a rare phenomenon with footballers either. (wait until my "Last Ronaldo Thread" hehe...)

Here's the thing: I'm not sure that Fletcher is ever going to be the player I had hoped he would turn out to be. I was REALLY counting on him to come good this season, maybe even start to grow into some sort of leader on the pitch for us. Sadly, this hasn't happened. He lacks confidence on the pitch, his passing isn't positive, and his incisive passing game (which I think is key for him) has all but disappeared as well. I was hoping being called out by Keane in such a public way would light a fire under the lad, but it hasn't happened. Hopefully, this "clear the air" meeting will be of help to the team as a whole, but especially to Fletcher.

He may very well be the next Savage, Wallwork, or Greening, a big fish in a small pond, and ultimately, that might be the route he needs to go in order to finally reach his potential as a footballer. I don't know. It's really hard to judge individual performances when the whole team is stuck in some sort of general malaise.

I'm not resigning from FUCOF-FFS!, I still believe in Fletcher.

He needs to step up and take the greatness out there waiting for him... cause if he doesn't, he needs to go, with the others who failed to take it, when the great purge happens.

Achtung
04 Nov 2005, 12:31 PM
Wow, between this thread and my recent criticisms of Roy Keane, maybe we need to combine the two into a "Sins Of The Moderators" thread. :o

I have to say, my opinion of Fletcher remains the same, and is probably reinforced by his play this season. Since last year, I've felt he would be good for us, but never reach the levels of our superstar midfields in the past. Like I've said before, our midfield from 1998-2001 was the absolute benchmark by which all other United midfields will be judged, and I just don't see that level in Darren Fletcher. Is he more than adequate? Sure. Does he have that spark that's needed to get to a higher level? That I have always doubted. I see him not so much as the next Robbie Savage but maybe more the next Nicky Butt--capable of moments of greatness, but ultimately no one's idea of a world-class player (aside from maybe Pele).

Vermont Red
04 Nov 2005, 12:35 PM
I, too, have been a supporter of Fletcher, especially last season when Fletcher's positive contributions were undeniable. This season makes me wonder if Fletcher is one of those players who is always going to be better as the understudy, a Scottie Pippen if you will, who shines brightest only in the reflected glow of a real superstar. This season Fletcher has the opportunity to put his stamp on midfield, as he is the only natural central midfielder getting regular playing time. Unfortunately, as Motter pointed out, Fletcher has looked confused and off the pace.

I would love to see Fletcher succeed, not only for United's benefit, but also to silence the unwarranted criticism of Fletcher and his supporters. I keep hoping for the game in which he turns it around. Maybe Sunday.

MtP07
04 Nov 2005, 12:36 PM
:eek:

*picks jaw from floor*

Teso Dos Bichos
04 Nov 2005, 01:41 PM
Just noting my utter disgust at this thread. http://img445.imageshack.us/img445/9100/no7rq.gif

Rei de Boston
04 Nov 2005, 01:56 PM
This year has so far been a trial for the team and many of the players. My opinion of Fletcher has probably been as close to Motters as you could be without actually being him.

Saying that I think this stretch of games is the telling time for many of the players. It is still relatively early in the season and there is much time to get things sorted out. While I am hopefull that Fletcher can step his game up this year I am not as optomistic about this as I was at the end of last season.

There are times when he makes a great pass and I can remember some games where he has actually looked like he was putting his stamp on the game. Right now it looks like he just doesn't have it in him to do it consistently. Hopefully the next handful of games sees that begginging to change.

Motterman
04 Nov 2005, 02:09 PM
Just noting my utter disgust at this thread. http://img445.imageshack.us/img445/9100/no7rq.gif

Have you read the whole thread, Teso? What exactly do you have a problem with?

Achtung
04 Nov 2005, 02:15 PM
To me, the difference between Keane and Fletcher became most evident during the Citeh game. When Keane came on for Fletcher, there was an immediate sense that things were under control, our game had been taken to a higher standard, and we looked more dangerous right away. There were no bad balls played or possessions lost cheaply. Everytime Keane touched the ball you felt like something good was about to happen for us. That composure and vision--I don't see Fletcher having those same traits. I know he's young, but its not as though he's 12 either. At this point, I'm just not entirely sure you can teach those characteristics.

bigtoga
04 Nov 2005, 02:18 PM
Congrats to those of you waking up - I'm glad that Keano has helped you see the light :)

Fletcher has not been as good as Butt, PNev or Klebs yet we sold them because of Fletcher's promise among other things. Hopefully he's going to live up to the hype in 2-3 years' time. He's still young... We should not have sold one of either Butt or PNev so that Keane would've had a solid backup. That would've taken some pressure off of Fletcher since he feels he has to do it all...

nicephoras
04 Nov 2005, 02:22 PM
W/ regards to us playing Smith and Fletch in midfield in 06/07 I think if David Jones is added to the mix that those 3 will be after 1 season of playing together better (as a unit) than any 3 players Chelsea puts in their midfield, and needless to say, capable of playing Arsenal's Cesc/Gilberto combination off the park......Fletcher/Jones are both special players when it comes to passing

Redux.

Motterman
04 Nov 2005, 02:26 PM
I know he's young, but its not as though he's 12 either. At this point, I'm just not entirely sure you can teach those characteristics.

He's also, at least, a year or two behind in his development due to injuries when he was younger. Also, the confidence that the team feeds off of Keane when he enters the field of battle...err... pitch, isn't achieved overnight either. Would David Jones be a better option at the moment? Chris Eagles? I'm not sure. Look at how Richardson did at WBA, and look at him for us, as an example.

johno
04 Nov 2005, 02:36 PM
Redux.

1. you're a loser.
2. i've not posted in this thread about my feelings about Fletcher, which is all his inclusion in that post of mine was about.
3. you're still a loser.

Achtung
04 Nov 2005, 02:42 PM
He's also, at least, a year or two behind in his development due to injuries when he was younger. Also, the confidence that the team feeds off of Keane when he enters the field of battle...err... pitch, isn't achieved overnight either. Would David Jones be a better option at the moment? Chris Eagles? I'm not sure. Look at how Richardson did at WBA, and look at him for us, as an example.

Which is why I'm still taking a "wait and see" approach to the kid. Problem is, while we're waiting to see what he can really do, the team has actual games to play. It's not like he's learning in the reserves, these are important matches and it hurts the team if he can't hold up the midfield like we need him to.

It's also why I'd like to get Ballack in the interim while we figure out whether Fletcher, Smith, Jones, or someone else will be good enough to do the job for us.

Vermont Red
04 Nov 2005, 02:44 PM
1. you're a loser.
2. i've not posted in this thread about my feelings about Fletcher, which is all his inclusion in that post of mine was about.
3. you're still a loser.

You know he's been waiting for the right moment to post that quote. It would be funny if it wasn't so creepy.

johno
04 Nov 2005, 03:20 PM
You know he's been waiting for the right moment to post that quote. It would be funny if it wasn't so creepy.

yup... grade a schizo.

Dark Savante
04 Nov 2005, 04:08 PM
Motter's longest post ever on BS :D.
Interesting to see your view change a little.



Would David Jones be a better option at the moment?
At this precise moment in time it is hard to say - he's doing great things at PNE. I don't think Fletcher would have that impact there. I always say Fletcher needs to be about something and try and put a stamp on games he is in. I've said it at least 4times this season alone. Jones always puts his mark on games, even if he is having a bad game he will try hard to take over. I've followed Fletcher since he was a reserve and without a doubt Jones is superior to him in every way, tracing their career's through the system Jones comes out miles on top. If I had to call which of the two will make it here I'd say Jones every time. It should still be remembered that Fletcher is only 21, his story and its conclusion may not be told for another 3-4yrs. I do fear that if Fergie goes Fletcher will not be in a new managers plans.


Chris Eagles? I'm not sure. Look at how Richardson did at WBA, and look at him for us, as an example..
Eagles has never impressed me he isn't MUQ imo. I don't think he'll ever make it here. Jones is by far a better footballer than Richardson.


----

I don't think Fletcher should be culled. He is nowhere near as bad as players like O'Shea and he has potential. He should not be played as a starter though imo. HE can still suffer burn out being so young and should be rotated with another player. At that age we should expect a lot of ups and downs and Fletcher is not ready to take over games at 21, most CM's are not. It is a difficult position and usually CM's emerge as top notch at around 24 unless prodigious. Fletcher has never been a prodigious talent.

listen_up_fergie
04 Nov 2005, 07:02 PM
I think I share Motter's disappointment concerning Fletcher. Towards the end of last season, he was showing signs of developing further, but I think the worst thing that happened to Fletcher last season was that it ended too soon for him. He had built up a run of decent form, and he was actually showing signs of being able to command the midfield without Keane by his side. I was hoping that he'd come back this season a little more beefed up and with more confidence. But sadly, things aren't going so well and he's probably a bit low on confidence right now. I still have some hope for him though...21 is pretty young. I don't think he'll ever be amongst the world's top midfielders because there are players younger than him who are better (although very few of them are British players). At this stage, he can't really be compared to any one else...not Keane, not Butt, not Lampard...he has his own style.

The role he is being asked to play doesn't help him much, IMO...but at this stage Fletcher is not a Rooney, so I wouldn't blame the manager for not employing tactics suitable to just Fletcher. My hope is that if we can sign a quality midfielder or two next summer, then I would like to see Fletcher get first team football at another Premiership club where his role would entail more than just glueing the wingers to the central midfield, and he will be more involved in getting forward and creating chances in the final third.

Mac_Howard
04 Nov 2005, 10:56 PM
Although it's unfair to write off a 21 year old player, and I've always backed off criticising him too much for that reason, I'm one of those who've never been impressed with Fletcher. He has too many limitations:

His tackling is weak
His passing is inconsistent and seldom shows any creativity
He's easily knocked off the ball
He has no pace
He has no "quickness" - his long striding running style denies him any acceleration
He can't dribble
There's a lack of any real aggression in his game

What he does have is a good reading of play which allows him to become involved in the game. Defensively he gets in the way a lot and slows up opposition attacks, offensively he takes an important intermediate role in the build up. This is why he's much better centrally where his involvement is useful but ineffective out wide when he has to rely on others to bring him into the game.

Our performance improves when he's played centrally alongside Keane and Scholes because his involvement allows the other two time to play their own game. Particularly Scholes who becomes so much less efffective when he has defensive duties and has to play deep. This, I believe, is why our results seem to have been better when he plays - it's not so much him as the freedom he allows the other two.

But when Keane is missing and he's required to play a more dominant game then he fails.

Unfortunately playing him centrally alongside the other two condemns us to a 4-3-3/4-5-1 formation that robs us of attacking power.

It's too early to say that he won't make a good, though never outstanding, player. He could become another Darren Anderton if he picks up a creative element to his game. But he will always suffer from that lack of pace and quickness that comes from his running style and that will always be a limitation he'll struggle to overcome.

Teso Dos Bichos
05 Nov 2005, 03:56 PM
Have you read the whole thread, Teso? What exactly do you have a problem with?

I have read the entire thread. Apart from not liking yet another thread for the anti-Fletcher brigade to invade, I have a problem with most of the replies, the comparisons and everything between 'now' and 'malaise' in your opening post.

Mac_Howard
05 Nov 2005, 06:11 PM
I have read the entire thread. Apart from not liking yet another thread for the anti-Fletcher brigade to invade, I have a problem with most of the replies, the comparisons and everything between 'now' and 'malaise' in your opening post.

You complain about the "anti-Fletcher" posts but you answer none of them. Tell us why you think Fletcher is a good player. I have never seen anything but industry in his game. Tell me what else you see.