Riots in Paris suburbs

[gaijin]

It surprises me when people from outside France see them as "Muslims" because they're much more young than muslim, they are teenagers and their message could be briefly resumed as .... "**** the society" basically. Moreover not all of them are muslims, And when they are, if you ask these young guys if they believe in God or not, I'm pretty sure they'll respond you in the negative, cause even if they may hate the idea, they're french after all ...
What's quite strange too is that most young beurs in France today are quite secular...

[jambon-beurre]

What's quite strange too is that most young beurs in France today are quite secular...

Well ... that's just what I was trying to say :o ;)

[midknight]

Apparently the guy who died, did so while putting a fire out in the front of his appartment...

not quite, he was beaten after he and a friend of his put out the fire and hung around to make sure that no one came back to light the garbage can back again.

He fell into a coma and never came out

[gaijin]

not quite, he was beaten after he and a friend of his put out the fire and hung around to make sure that no one came back to light the garbage can back again.

He fell into a coma and never came out
Ah.... That's what I heard on French radio, I don't think he went into the dynamics of it, or I simply didn't fully understand it.

[gaijin]

Well ... that's just what I was trying to say :o ;)
I'm trying to explain it to the serfs... ;) :o

[Nanbawan]

There is a lovely thread on the P+CE board here (http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=262124) which you can use to discuss this issue, where you can use, shall we say the lovely and colourful P+CE rhetoric.

Just coming back from there...

http://www.lost-soleil.com/oekaki/original/beaten.jpg

That stings a bit.

[AllezParisAllezPSG]

i was in italy this weekend guys and it was just all over cnn... i was talking to family/friends there, its just so weird... its like a revolution but not really... and how can you stop something like this? were talking about irrational people who think violence is their only solution... we'll see...

in any case, i'd say a good chunk/percentage of the youngsters doing this are not muslim... i saw many interviews and a lot of them are just regular white french guys who wear ghetto clothes and who talk in a real ghetto manner (don't know how else to explain it) ... i really hope things get resolved...

vive la france

[patrickm]

i saw a film called "la haine" last year. this whole thing looks remarkably similar to what is going on now. this is not so much based in religion as it is just a bunch of jerk off kids who all think they are living in los angles or new york city, with all the hip hop and wanna be gangster crap.

[Sachin]

I just thought of something last night: There's no disruption in wine, cheese and baguette production is there? Because if there is, we're not going.

:)

It seems things are starting to simmer down now.

Sachin

[RandyNA74]

Yikes, did I pick a fine weekend to be away...good thing ganu was recently promoted. :D

It will be very interesting to see the extent to which:

a) the violence will spread to other European countries (I can see it in Belgium, Holland, and maybe Germany but not so much UK, Italy, Spain), and

b) the extent to which radical Islamic extremists will attempt to manipulate the situation in order to recruit (not like there isn't enough recruiting going on in Europe already...)

[YankBastard]

This guy's got a good point for once.

The Muslim Insurrection in France
Tuesday, November 08, 2005
By Bill O'Reilly

The Muslim insurrection in France, that is the subject of this evening's "Talking Points Memo".

Well, if you don't believe in karma after this story, what can I say. Let's start at the beginning. If France had demanded that Saddam Hussein allow the U.N. weapons inspectors full access, there would not have been a war in Iraq. But as you know, France was making millions under the table by working with Saddam. And that corrupt bargain hurt us all.

Also, let's not forget the Chirac government and the French media have consistently undermined America's War on Terror. — That's why we're boycotting France.

But now the tide has turned, hasn't it? France is under bitter siege by Muslims. And the weak Chirac government has been exposed in front of the world. For nearly two weeks, Chirac has allowed the insurrection to build in ferocity, refusing to use his military, allowing anarchy in the streets. This makes Hurricane Katrina look like a comic book.

President Chirac simply has no clue. And if the French people can't figure this out, their entire country's at risk.

So what are the lessons here? Well, France has allowed massive Muslim immigration. Ten percent of the French population now practices Islam.

Many of these new French citizens are people of color from Africa, who feel the native French do not accept them and the police treat them unfairly.

Being a socialist society, France has provided its new citizens with the usual entitlements, including housing, health benefits, and welfare, but there are few jobs in the French economy, which has been stagnant for years. So millions of immigrants are unemployed, feel disenfranchised, and hate their adopted country.

And it gets worse. The insurgent Muslims apparently believe they can do whatever they want because Chirac is so weak in the face of the provocation, they're pretty much correct. As I said, Chirac won't even use the military to protect lives and property.

Meantime, back here in the USA, we have our own immigration mess as everybody knows. The difference here is that we have a vibrant economy in which illegal aliens can make money.

But the same kind of chaos in place simply can't allow millions of foreign born people to pour into any country without a well through out plan to assimilate them.

The Bush administration and the Clinton administration before it have failed to confront the immigration chaos. The result, 9/11 was caused by Muslims who overstayed their visas and recently New Mexico and Arizona have declared states of emergency.

We're living in a very dangerous world where fanatics and terrorists abound. France has buried its head in the sand and now has a disaster on its hands.

America has done the same thing on immigration. Is our disaster just around the corner?"

[RandyNA74]

Right when you think O'Reilly can't possibly spew more ignorance and contribute further to the overall idiocy of the world...

I suppose there might be a hint of a decent point in there somewhere, but it's buried underneath so much horse manure that it's pretty difficult to make out. And I'm too lazy to dig through so much scheisse.

[sl7vk]

Seconded......
Too busy groping coworkers to see anything close to the truth I suppose. How do you like them family values?

[lefutur]

[QUOTE=YankBastard]This guy's got a good point for once.

[QUOTE]

What exactly is his point? That all poor people and muslims should be herded up all dealt with swiftly and accordingly? This is the same guy who while people were dying in New Orleans from lack of water and heat said that the looters should be "shot on sight"! He's an a-hole....no if ands or buts.

[gaijin]

Insurrection.

9-11?

War on terror?

I'm sorry but anyone who thinks that France somehow brought on the Iraq war by not letting UN inspectors into Iraq and comes from a nation that supplied an evil dicator with weapons and such to obliterate Iran in the 80's is not worth reading.

It reeks of petty neo-conservative opulence in the opening paragraph. A damn shame because most conservatives in Europe can actually pen a good argument by using a good matter of the facts, a glimmer of intelligence and poise and also the ability to write a coherent sentence without relating everything to 9-11 and Iraq.

What a tosspot.

The guy just writes ignorant and purile garbage.

[RandyNA74]

Insurrection.

9-11?

War on terror?

I'm sorry but anyone who thinks that France somehow brought on the Iraq war by not letting UN inspectors into Iraq and comes from a nation that supplied an evil dicator with weapons and such to obliterate Iran in the 80's is not worth reading.

It reeks of petty neo-conservative opulence in the opening paragraph. A damn shame because most conservatives in Europe can actually pen a good argument by using a good matter of the facts, a glimmer of intelligence and poise and also the ability to write a coherent sentence without relating everything to 9-11 and Iraq.

What a tosspot.

The guy just writes ignorant and purile garbage.
[Bill O'Reilly]France funded the al-Qa'ida cell that attacked the World Trade Center, and is currently hiding Osama bin Laden. You heard it here first![/Bill O'Reilly]

[fishbiproduct]

Many french footballers, like Theirry Henry, are from the Parisian 'banlieu' and should speak up about this.

Thuram (http://www.rmcinfo.fr/index.php?id=pagenews&tx_rmcafpnews_pi1[newsid]=051108175349.mj4p3ble&tx_rmcafpnews_pi1[dirtype]=spo)

Le footballeur Lilian Thuram, "énervé", répond à Nicolas Sarkozy

Le défenseur de l'équipe de France de football Lilian Thuram, membre du Haut Conseil à l'Intégration, a indiqué être "énervé" par les discours entendus sur les banlieues et a répondu mardi au ministre de l'Intérieur, Nicolas Sarkozy, en affirmant ne "pas (être) une racaille".


Le défenseur de l'équipe de France de football Lilian Thuram, membre du Haut Conseil à l'Intégration, a indiqué être "énervé" par les discours entendus sur les banlieues et a répondu mardi au ministre de l'Intérieur, Nicolas Sarkozy, en affirmant ne "pas (être) une racaille".

"Moi aussi, j'ai grandi en banlieue, a-t-il expliqué devant les caméras de télévision lors d'une conférence de presse à la veille de France-Costa Rica. Quand quelqu'un dit il faut nettoyer au Kärcher... Il ne sait peut-être pas ce qu'il dit, Sarkozy. Moi, je le prends pour moi.", a affirmé le champion du monde 1998 et champion d'Europe 2000.

"Moi aussi on me disait: +tu es une racaille+. Mais je ne suis pas une racaille. Ce que je voulais, c'était travailler. Il n'a peut-être pas saisi

cette subtilité", a poursuivi Lilian Thuram, déclarant être "énervé" et souhaitant qu'on re-situe ce débat sur la violence.

"C'est assez délicat, on traverse une période difficile. On a mis le point sur l'insécurité. C'est quelque chose qui rassemble: qui ne veut pas vivre en sécurité? Le problème, c'est qu'il faut trouver des coupables. Et, derrière, on entend toujours les gens qui vivent dans les banlieues", a ajouté le défenseur de l'équipe de France, né à Pointe-à-Pitre (Guadeloupe).

"Mais la violence n'est jamais gratuite. Il faut comprendre d'où arrive le malaise. Avant de parler d'insécurité, il faut peut-être parler de justice sociale. Les gens (en banlieue) n'ont peut-être pas de travail."

"C'est bien la rigueur, mais, avant ça, il faut intégrer les gens par le travail. Ils demandent du travail. Les plus rebelles le traduisent par l'agressivité", a-t-il continué.

"Je suis triste pour eux (les jeunes des banlieues), mais il y a une réflexion à avoir. Souvent, les jeunes ont comme idoles les joueurs de foot, c'est bien, mais il faut d'autres idoles", a encore affirmé le défenseur des Bleus, qui a ensuite demandé à ce que le reste de la conférence de presse soit consacré au football et non aux émeutes des banlieues.

Agé de 33 ans, Thuram a toujours été une figure de proue de l'intégration et de la France "Black-blanc-beur". Il a souvent pris position sur des dossiers jugé politiques, appelant par exemple les gens à voter lors du référendum sur la Constitution européenne, prenant position contre l'antisémitisme, réclamant des sanctions dans le football contre le racisme ou soutenant Amnesty International.

Lors du match amical France-Algérie en 2001 au stade de France qui avait dû être suspendu avant son terme en raison de l'envahissement de la foule, Thuram avait également tapé du poing sur la table, s'en prenant notamment aux jeunes qui avaient provoqué la suspension du match.

Revenu en équipe de France avec Zinedine Zidane et Claude Makelele, le joueur de la Juventus Turin est une des grandes figures du football français.

[fishbiproduct]

Ok...Back to this subject:

Anybody else thinking we need to revise our integration
process? I mean fundamentaly.

Here's a pretty good article on the subject ( and in
English this time :) ) :
Founding principle called into question (http://www.guardian.co.uk/france/story/0,11882,1636671,00.html)

I'm starting to really come around this idea...
I know it used to "work", it worked for me (and
sure enough because I belonged to the first group
mentioned in the article)...but obviously, we've
reached its limitations.
Actually, we reached these limitations long ago, but
nothing has changed. Big mistake and we're
paying for it. I'm even starting to think we need
something similar to affirmative action in the US.
We don't have anything similar, do we? I don't
remember/ I'm not aware of it.

What do you think?

Remember this guy

http://www.seniorplanet.fr/forumsp/uploads/post-1-1097904160.jpg

That song wasn't just a joke...He was trying to tell
us something ;)

Faut rigoler
Faut rigoler
Avant qu'le ciel nous tomb' sur la tête
Faut rigoler
Faut rigoler
Pour empêcher le ciel de tomber

Nos ancêtres les Gaulois
Cheveux blonds et têtes de bois
Longues moustaches et gros dadas
Ne connaissaient que ce refrain-là

Faut rigoler
Faut rigoler
Avant qu'le ciel nous tomb' sur la tête
Faut rigoler
Faut rigoler
Pour empêcher le ciel de tomber

Nos ancêtres les Gaulois
Habitaient des huttes en bois
Et le druides trois par trois
Sous le gui chantaient à pleine voix

Faut rigoler
Faut rigoler
Avant qu'le ciel nous tomb' sur la tête
Faut rigoler
Faut rigoler
Pour empêcher le ciel de tomber

Nos ancêtres les Gaulois
Prirent la pile à Alésia
Les barbares étaient là
Mais tant pis pour Jules dirent les Gaulois

Faut rigoler
Faut rigoler
Avant qu'le ciel nous tomb' sur la tête
Faut rigoler
Faut rigoler
Pour empêcher le ciel de tomber

Nos ancêtres les Gaulois
Inventèrent le tabac
Et c'est grâce à ce truc-là
Qu'ils s'fendaient la pipe à tour de bras

Faut rigoler
Faut rigoler
Avant qu'le ciel nous tomb' sur la tête
Faut rigoler
Faut rigoler
Pour empêcher le ciel de tomber

Nos ancêtres les Gaulois
Eurent tort d'être grand-papas
C'est leur faute si on est là
Et si on fait le mambo des Gaulois

Faut rigoler
Faut rigoler
Avant qu'le ciel nous tomb' sur la tête
Faut rigoler
Faut rigoler
Pour empêcher le ciel de tomber

[Sachin]

fishbiproduct: How can France resolve its secualrism and openness with the traditions of a minority that really has no incentive to adpot French mores?

Perhaps what's really needed is less government involvement in the economy. Here's one look from Joel Kotkin: http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110007519

Sachin

[YankBastard]

What exactly is his point?

That France mainly brought this upon themselves. *ducks*