Excellent analysis of Utd's problems

[Mac_Howard]

An (unusually) excellent article from the Guardian on Utd's problems:

http://football.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,9753,1606172,00.html

Just a few extracts but it's worth reading in total:

If Keane was truly uncensored, it would be fascinating to get his views on the influence of failure specialist Carlos Queiroz, who has neutered United's attacking elan.

Keane's values - the remorseless pursuit of excellence at all costs; the bristling intolerance of the b_llsh_ t and excuses of modern sport - have not changed. Ferguson's have. He has become resigned to and tolerant of a mediocrity that Keane cannot countenance.

Why did you sell Jaap Stam, Sir Alex? No, really, Sir Alex - why did you sell Jaap Stam? What does Liam Miller do to earn more per week than most of your supporters earn per annum? Why are you earning £4m per year if, as Ryan Giggs says, you have given Queiroz "the responsibility to train us, prepare us for games, organise the team and decide the things we need to work on"?

Most United fans have had enough. They have had enough of 4-3-2-1; of an abuse of the heritage of the club that has not occurred since the Sexton years; of the moronic twitter of the man they lovelessly call Carlos Queirozzzz; of the fact that only a Scouser, a sub-standard Leeds fan and a Portuguese pretty boy show the requisite desire; of a gaping chasm where once there was the best midfield in Europe;

the problems go back to the summer of 2001, when he sold Stam, paid £28.1m for the curse known as Juan Sebastian Veron and killed a golden goose that was delivering a Premiership every year in pursuit of a farewell European Cup at Hampden Park. Since then, he has made some desperate mistakes. These are not borderline errors of judgement; they are decisions that fly in the face of all rhyme and reason.

There is his record in the transfer market, with at least three Klebersons for every Gabriel Heinze and the shocking failure to address the decline of a once-majestic midfield; the delegation of significant power to the ruinous and incessantly negative Queiroz, which has made United neither successful nor entertaining, despite Queiroz's belief-beggaring proclamation that: "We are producing the most exciting, attacking football in the league".

Then there is the inexplicable persistence with a phalanx of incompetents. Like John O'Shea; once referred to as looking like a thin Peter Kay, now he just looks like Peter Kay. Like Alan Smith who, for all his admirable endeavour, has more chance of being the new Eminem than the new Roy Keane.

Like Ruud van Nistelrooy, who surrenders possession time after time after time and then falls over. Like Darren Fletcher, a teacher's pet in the McClair mould who is, at this stage of his career, simply not good enough.

Now, if reports are to be believed, Ferguson is ready to bite off his purple nose to spite his face and let Keane go. If he does, it will be the final proof: Sir Alex Ferguson has demonstrably, irrefutably lost the plot.

Some talking points there :)

[Republic of Mancunia]

Then there is the inexplicable persistence with a phalanx of incompetents. Like John O'Shea; once referred to as looking like a thin Peter Kay, now he just looks like Peter Kay.

LMAO, I can't rep the journalist so thought I'd rep you but it seems I've got to spread first.

[Achtung]

Nothing there that hasn't been said many, many times by people in here, but of course each point holds a certain weight.

This to me stuck out most of all though:
a gaping chasm where once there was the best midfield in Europe

Really its easy to almost forget but Giggs-Scholes-Keane-Beckham really was the best midfield in Europe from 1998-2001. Nowadays, with all the tinkering and inconsistency, the mix we throw out there often doesn't even look like the best midfield in Lancashire. With apologies to James Carville, it's the midfield, stupid.

[Mac_Howard]

Really its easy to almost forget but Giggs-Scholes-Keane-Beckham really was the best midfield in Europe from 1998-2001.

The deterioration began when Alex decided that this midfield had become too predictable to win the CL and brought Veron in to play a "more sophisticated" game. It's been downhill ever since :(

[littleman]

Really its easy to almost forget but Giggs-Scholes-Keane-Beckham really was the best midfield in Europe from 1998-2001. Nowadays, with all the tinkering and inconsistency, the mix we throw out there often doesn't even look like the best midfield in Lancashire. With apologies to James Carville, it's the midfield, stupid.

I watched the 1999 Juve 1st leg (how many times have I mentioned this in my past 50 posts) and the commentator was going through the start up line.. Goalkeeper, defence.. and then he skipped over the ENTIRE midfield.

"Well.. the midfield quartet speaks for itself. And up front is.."

[Achtung]

Yep, and that all started apparently because SAF reached the conclusion that winning the Premiership was too easy. He wanted to be immortal, he wanted to win another Champions League, no matter the harm it could do to the soul of the team. You try to hard to reach the sun, well... we all know what happened to Icarus.

[listen_up_fergie]

Nothing there that hasn't been said many, many times by people in here, but of course each point holds a certain weight.

This to me stuck out most of all though:


Really its easy to almost forget but Giggs-Scholes-Keane-Beckham really was the best midfield in Europe from 1998-2001. Nowadays, with all the tinkering and inconsistency, the mix we throw out there often doesn't even look like the best midfield in Lancashire. With apologies to James Carville, it's the midfield, stupid.

I think that's probably been our main problem in recent times. We've got a worldclass strikeforce...a pretty competent defence when there aren't many injuries, and when Rio isn't dozing at the back.

[Achtung]

I think that's probably been our main problem in recent times. We've got a worldclass strikeforce...a pretty competent defence when there aren't many injuries, and when Rio isn't dozing at the back.

Yeah honestly even though our defense has looked horrible the past few weeks, we've got a stellar defensive record over the past three seasons, even before Heinze. While I think we need to address the backline, its nowhere near as urgent as the midfield.

[OzzArs]

United seem to have a culture problem, I've noticed that since players have resigned they've dipped in form, Scholes and Rio particularly (though much of this can be attributed to the lack of support around them). I'm surprised that news of what Keane said didn't result in a more lively performance from the squad, either the team that got on the field against Lille was ******** ability wise, lacked spirit, or all of the above.

ManU need to probably inject new players in the squad, these players should be players that want to play for united, Park for instance seems to bust a gut each time he plays, despite his poor finishing/crossing, his performances are encouraging to watch.

[emailryoung]

I'm not sure this is completely fair to Sir Alex.

Did he not seek Robben and Ronaldinho? Does he not seek Ballack? I don't think he's lost the plot -- he's just been frustrated by Chelsea's cash and Barcelona's cachet.

[listen_up_fergie]

I'm not sure this is completely fair to Sir Alex.

Did he not seek Robben and Ronaldinho? Does he not seek Ballack? I don't think he's lost the plot -- he's just been frustrated by Chelsea's cash and Barcelona's cachet.

I think its unfair to blame our decline over the past few seasons entirely on Fergie. But he has made some key mistakes that he has yet to rectify. I just hope he wakes up and smells the whiskey.

[Achtung]

Nothing there that hasn't been said many, many times by people in here, but of course each point holds a certain weight.

You know, after reading that article a second time, I seriously have to wonder whether the writer spent a few days over here doing research for his piece. It's like a cavalcade of our complaints over the past year or two.

[Achtung]

I just hope he wakes up and smells the whiskey.

Wakes up... or listens up? ;)

[listen_up_fergie]

Wakes up... or listens up? ;)

:D

[Dark Savante]

Howard, I didn't know you moonlighted for the Guardian :p

I'm not sure we have any money to replace the old guard... and Ferguson had earmarked a bunch of players who are shining now that Kenyon robbed from us when he left, which wouldn't indicate Fergie can't spot talent anymore..it's whether we can afford them now...

Apart from that the article is pretty good. Not your best work, but certainly a quality read :p

[Mac_Howard]

Howard, I didn't know you moonlighted for the Guardian

Just a matter of "great minds ...." ;)

In fact I don't agree with it all but it does raise quite a few points worth discussing. I think, for once, it was written, not by an ABU, but by either a disgruntled fan of Utd or an independant that has valued our game in the past. It captures my frustration, not only in the deterioration of our results, but also in our loss of the confident, attacking, flair football that we have been admired (and hated) for for so long.

I'm not sure we have any money to replace the old guard...

As I said after the Boro game, we could have afforded Mendieta when we missed out on Ronaldinho and Davids when we missed Essien. There's no shortage of others. Sure we cannot compete with Chelsea, Real, Barca etc but there's no shortage of players outside of those that iterest these clubs. We should not be reduced to playing journeyman players like Fletcher, DjDj, Miller or converting strikers when we really need a Keane replacement.

Do you think a midfield of Davids and Mendieta would have capitulated to Lille the way Fletcher and Smith did? Do you think we couldn't outbid Boro or Spurs?

and Ferguson had earmarked a bunch of players who are shining now that Kenyon robbed from us when he left, which wouldn't indicate Fergie can't spot talent anymore

Spotting that players like Ronaldinho and Essien are world class players doesn't exactly take a genius. Seeing anything at all in the likes of Miller does take something special but I wouldn't call it genius :)

[listen_up_fergie]

As I said after the Boro game, we could have afforded Mendieta when we missed out on Ronaldinho and Davids when we missed Essien. There's no shortage of others. Sure we cannot compete with Chelsea, Real, Barca etc but there's no shortage of players outside of those that iterest these clubs. We should not be reduced to playing journeyman players like Fletcher, DjDj, Miller or converting strikers when we really need a Keane replacement.

Do you think a midfield of Davids and Mendieta would have capitulated to Lille the way Fletcher and Smith did? Do you think we couldn't outbid Boro or Spurs?




Good point, mac...although Mendieta would have always been a bit of a risk. But I agree with your main point, which is that there were always going to be realistic options to bolster the central midfield, but for some reason we chose to bank on Keane not getting injured the entire season. :rolleyes:

[Mac_Howard]

I use those two as examples rather than to be specific. There are always players available outside of those that move to the likes of Chelsea etc. Where were we when Lampard, Cole and Carrick became available for example?

Alex just doesn't seem to have been aware of the decay of our central midfield. Even if Roy Keane had remained fit he was only good for 30 or so matches a season and we'll play nearer 60. And what about AM? Scholes is the only central midfielder with any real claim to creativity. But he too is on the wrong side of 30. Again, no discernable replacement or backup.

Our midfield without Keane and Scholes wouldn't grace Portsmouth let alone Utd.

Alex/Quieroz have to take responsibility for the collapse in our central midfield squad and also in the deterioration of our playing style. This result didn't suddenly happen. We haven't played fluid football for 90 minutes for a long time now. That deterioration has taken place over years not weeks and the responsibility for that has to go to the management.

[Salama]

The bottom line is, our current first choice CM combination of
Keane-Scholes-Smith/Fletcher would currently be ranked 4th in the prem, at best.

Chelsea (Makalele-Essien-Lampard)
Liverpool (Alonso-Gerrard-Sissoko)
Tottenham (Jenas-Davids-Carrick)

Are all unquestionably superior threesomes. Arguments for Arsenal and Newcastle being better could be made, although I think Keano is better than any of Fabregas,Silva,Hleb,Parker or Emre.

Central Midfield may not be any more important than Central Defence or the Striker position, but we're wasting Rooney,Ronaldo,Park and Ruud if we can't get them the ball, and even if our defence includes Heinze and Neville, no team in the world has a strong enough backline (even Chelski) to make up for a weak CM.

I think I know how Baltimore Ravens fans feel. We too, are in dire need of a quarterback.

[Dark Savante]

As I said after the Boro game, we could have afforded Mendieta when we missed out on Ronaldinho and Davids when we missed Essien. There's no shortage of others. Sure we cannot compete with Chelsea, Real, Barca etc but there's no shortage of players outside of those that iterest these clubs. We should not be reduced to playing journeyman players like Fletcher, DjDj, Miller or converting strikers when we really need a Keane replacement.

It's not that I don't agree with your premise...it's that in reality things like that don't happen. Mendieta had lost the plot in Italy and we weren't about to break the bank for his services. He hasn't gotten to even half of his capabilities since leaving Spain. As for Davids...I wanted him here, but in reality Davids is going nowhere with the expectation of primarily being on the bench. it just isn't realistic. Who (at the time, hindsight is easy) do you replace from the fully fit starting line-up to accomodate Davds? Davids is going nowhere to sit on a bench...for anyone.



Do you think a midfield of Davids and Mendieta would have capitulated to Lille the way Fletcher and Smith did? Do you think we couldn't outbid Boro or Spurs?
You may remember a thread I made some time in the Summer I think it was, about buying older, experienced players rather than 20something potential talents. I wont be the one to bump it, but it covers a lot of what we're talking about right now. The likes of Baraja, Juninho and Ze Roberto were mentioned and I felt that was the way to go over the Summer until our youngsters in the reserves were ready to take over. Putting the older players on 2or 3yr contracts and benefitting from ton of experience and world weary know how - actually did a little hunt. Here it is http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=203732


Spotting that players like Ronaldinho and Essien are world class players doesn't exactly take a genius.
That's easy to say in hindsight. I'm sure Lazio thought the same when they bought one of the best midfielders in the world for £30m and he turned into one of the worst busts of all time.


Seeing anything at all in the likes of Miller does take something special but I wouldn't call it genius :)
That was Keano's hand pick, recommended to SAF.