Hudson talks of formation after Dema trade.....

[Cweedchop]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A41532-2002Dec26.html


Very interesting indeed...

According to Ray, we will line up like this if things go according to plan..


-------------------- Rimando --------------------


Prideaux ------------- Nelsen ------------ Petke



------ Kovalenko ----- Convey ---------


Reyes ------------------------------------ Olsen


--------- Etch -----------



-------------- Quaranta -------- TBA ------------



Also of note is the pursuit and interest of a Bulgarian defender, Joe-Max Moore, Osario and the best news of all, Milton Nunez....

[CrazyMLSfan]

Overall, I think DC got a good deal. I think they are building a soccer powerhouse like the Chicago Fire. I think 2002 was the last time we saw DC fighting to get into the quarterfinals, instead, they will be fighting for first place.

[Cweedchop]

Not much in the defensive midfield mind you, but a sure fire better attack than the past few seasons..

Olsen alone makes a huge difference much less the addition of Dema.....

[Sachin]

I'd switch Etch and Convey in that formation.

Convey's game is a lot of one-touch and give and go. That could spell disaster in the back of the midfield.

Sachin

[ursula]

Thanks for the link, Chris. I like that formation, though I can still imagine changes depending on trades. I wonder, though if Reyes might go to the left- he did play on the left before, like when he guarded- sorry marked- ;) Ralston. Probably Olsen and he can interchange at will.

Something else is occuring to me today now that Dema is in the fold: If Etch doesn't get off to a good start I'd bet that Hudson benches him. Ohhhhhhh. one could then imagine:

some other defender ------------- Petke/Nelsen (if ITT in midfield)------------ Prideaux


------------------------------Nelsen/ITT



-------------------------- Kovalenko


Reyes/Olsen --------------------------------------------------- Olsen/Reyes


---------------------------- Convey -----------



-------------------- Quaranta -------- TBA ------------

[boydreilly]

Originally posted by Cweedchop
[url]
-------------------- Rimando --------------------


Prideaux ------------- Nelsen ------------ Petke



------ Kovalenko ----- Convey ---------


Reyes ------------------------------------ Olsen


--------- Etch -----------



-------------- Quaranta -------- TBA ------------




Well, I think we start with one of the most suspect Ds in the league. I'd sit Quaranta over Q2 and place McKinley there instead of Prideaux and hope we get at least one respectable forward. Reyes would be a fantastic outside halfback - that is some serious runners on the sides.

I'd prefer we get Earnie Stewart or Nunez as our next forward. JMM didn't exactly light up the scoreboard when he was last in MLS. I don't know anything of Osorio. Is he any good?

[DigitalTron]

OMG. Hudson talks smack all the time and you guys are actually believing him!?!?!?!?

Hudson and Trask certainly have their faults (don't get me started) but they understand how to play defense. If they're playing a 352 with Reyes and Olsen as the wing midfielders (which would be a fantastic pair defensively and provide some attack as well) he's not going to just ignore central midfield defense. While Dema might be OK for the second Hmid, he'd definitely need a destroyer type defense-only Dmid to pair with him. Convey would most certainly not be that person.

Convey is an attacking central midfielder. While his defense is improving, he's not going to disrupt many counterattacks or force possession to the flanks. There's no way the central midfield trio consists of Etch, Convey and Dema all at the same time.

When Kasper says "I think we're done for a while" you should read that as "We're trying hard to get at least one big time Dmid and don't want anyone to know." Frankly, I doubt Reyes plays wing or Olsen shifts to the left. I'm expecting a 352 that looks like this:

-------Allocation-------Santino-------

------------Etch--------Dema--------
Convey-------------------------Olsen
-----------------Allocation-----------

-------Petke-----Nelsen----Reyes-----

This is Hudson trying to replace Prideaux, who is essential IMHO with Reyes (often attacking forward) and Nelsen (fairly slow) in a 3 man back line.

I have no problem with getting 4 starting caliber defenders to play a 352, as Nats callups, injuries and cautions will require 4 defenders.

I expect Hudson to be looking at someone like Arthur Numan or Chris Armas if he's trying to hard to convince us that he's not looking for another Dmid.

I'm very glad to hear that Hudson is still in the mix with Nunez though.

The formation that Ray suggested can be best summed up this way:

~S~M~O~K~E~S~C~R~E~E~N~

I'm very curious who Ray actually reels in, because I haven't seen him catch any big fish. Pineda Chacon was underrated, Bishop wasn't thought to be a huge player either. Hudson landed Gazza, but only after he was a mere shadow of his former skill level. If Ray lands Nunez, I'll tip my hat to him. But I'm curious if he's going to get a two-way Hmid, or if he's going to go after an Armas type after jettisoning Richie Williams.

-Tron

[ursula]

DT- I think you are right in a couple of places, especially in that the d-mid area is really up in the air right now. I just keep thinking that Etch is gonna get benched by the end of the season.

[Cweedchop]

Originally posted by boydreilly
Well, I think we start with one of the most suspect Ds in the league.

Ummm, United was #2 in MLS in defense last season..

This is often overlooked because of the pathetic offensive output of the team last season..

By the end of last season, the Reyes-Nelsen-Pope-Prideaux backline was among the best tandems in MLS.. We lose Pope (which is bad for sure) but we do get a guy (Petke) who has been an All-Star three times and works his ass off.. Were not talking Mark Watson or Judah Cooks here, Petke actually was wooed by Bayern Munich a few years back.. That has to mean something....

[boydreilly]

Originally posted by Cweedchop
Ummm, United was #2 in MLS in defense last season..

This is often overlooked because of the pathetic offensive output of the team last season..

By the end of last season, the Reyes-Nelsen-Pope-Prideaux backline was among the best tandems in MLS.. We lose Pope (which is bad for sure) but we do get a guy (Petke) who has been an All-Star three times and works his ass off.. Were not talking Mark Watson or Judah Cooks here, Petke actually was wooed by Bayern Munich a few years back.. That has to mean something....

Yes, our D was #2 last season. But, now we get rid of Pope and move Reyes to the midfield and the D his automatically weakened.

As for Petke; yes he was wooed by Bayern. Did you ever actually see the Bayern Munchen uniform on him? Did anybody else come a looking? No. As for his stay with the Metros. What did they have, one, playoff spot in the years past? He was on a perennial (sic?) loser of a team. Maybe even one their leaders. Arena certainly saw no need to call him up. And very few see him as future starter on the national team. Why? Because he is average at best. Pope is so much better than Petke. Petke is a subtraction to the team. We are so much weaker by having him.

[Cweedchop]

Originally posted by boydreilly
Yes, our D was #2 last season. But, now we get rid of Pope and move Reyes to the midfield and the D his automatically weakened.



Pope is so much better than Petke. Petke is a subtraction to the team. We are so much weaker by having him.

The move of Reyes to midfield is just Hudson speaking out loud. It doesn't mean he is going to stick with it.. Reyes was our most effective defender last season and it showed by Hudson using him as a man marker against some of the leagues most dangerous players.. Milton played no less than 5 different positions last year and I fully expect Hudson to likewise this season..

There's no denying Pope is a better player than Petke.. I never said he wasn't.. I just go by what I have witnessed as of late and what I see is that this team does just fine defensively without Pope.. Petke is not as much of a droppof as one would think.. For one thing, they'll most undoubtedly play different spots this season.. Petke will either play on the right or the left, depending on Nelsen's availability...

[Bird]

Originally posted by DigitalTron
...The formation that Ray suggested can be best summed up this way:

~S~M~O~K~E~S~C~R~E~E~N~


Maybe. Maybe not.

It could be a very effectively lineup against certain MLS teams, especially those that push their attack through the wings or flanks. Convey and Kovalenko don't really destoy in the traditional sense, but they could cover enough ground in central midfield to slow counters down and anticipate well enough to break up plays. And it could create some interesting matchup problems going the other direction.

On the other hand, it's probably not the best lineup against teams that attack consistently through the middle or field a strong #10 that needs to be man-marked, or for those times that DCU needs to hold onto a lead away from home. We clearly need a two-way midfielder who can win balls in order to really be able matchup well throughout the year (although I'm not convinced we want an out-and-out destroyer). However, Kovalenko clearly gives Ray a few more lineup options (he would have been a nice card to play against the Revs or SoS back in September).

It's kind of interesting to think about the most likely current depth chart (assuming some form of 3-5-2, with/without d-mids and/or a target forward, keeping in mind that Reyes can play wing and slide back to make a hybrid 4-4-2/3-5-2, as well as man mark anywhere on the field).

GK
1. Rimando
2. (Draft)

Sweeper/Libero
1. Nelsen
2. Mckinley
3. Petke?
4. Prideaux?

2-4 Fullback/Man Marker
1. Petke (R/L)
2. Reyes (R/L)
3. Prideaux (L)
4. Nelsen (R/L)
5. Namoff (R/L)
6. (Draft?)

Defensive Midfielder/Ball winner/Destroyer
1. (Allocation/Trade)
2. Nelsen
3. McKinley
4. (Draft?)
5. Reyes
6. Namoff

Wide Midfielder/Winger
1. Olsen (R/L)
2. Convey (L)
3. Reyes (R)
4. Quaranta (R/L)
5. Kovalenko (R)
6. (Draft?)
7. Alegria (L/R)
8. Quintanilla (L)

"Two-way" Central Midfielders
1. (Allocation/Trade)
2. Kovalenko
3. Convey
4. Etcheverry
5. Alegria
6. Namoff

"Playmaking" Midfielder
1. Etcheverry (i.e., "attacking statue")
2. Kovalenko
3. Convey (possibly #2 rather than Dema)
4. Quintanilla

Forwards
1. (Allocation/Trade)
2. Quaranta
3. Quintanilla
4. Kovalenko
5. (Draft?)
6. Curtis
7. Olsen

Target Forwards
1. (Allocation/Trade)
2. Quaranta?
3. (Draft?)

A couple of other random thoughts. The Reyes/Olsen combo on the right was good towards the end of the season, but the downside was that they tended to cover much of the same ground. Reyes/Kovalenko could work better on the right, since Kovalenko generally plays more centrally and Reyes could provide the width.

Olsen might be more valuable to us on the left over a season, particularly against guys like Ralston, Klein and Henderson.

The addition of Kovalenko, plus a scorer through an allocation, could also end up pushing Q1 back towards midfield, where he has been far more effective at the youth international level IMHO and may be his best position.

Biggest holes remaining to be filled: Forward (scorer) and midfield "ball winner" (preferably a two-way player).

We're in a great position to fill out the roster and build depth through the draft. However, much of the apparent talent available is at the back (where we're already strong), forward (always a crap shoot) or d-mid (seems to require a multi-season adjustment period). There are some wingers (e.g., Gregorio, Dunivant), but it seems like a smaller pool than in previous years.

It will be interesting to see what pops up on waivers in the next few weeks. That will probably dictate Hudsper's next couple of moves and draft day strategy.

[boydreilly]

Originally posted by Cweedchop
Petke is not as much of a droppof as one would think..

The drop off is monumental. Pope - Petke. You don't think the drop off is that big? I'm having a bad dream here to believe people won't notice a huge difference.

[Serie Zed]

Originally posted by boydreilly
The drop off is monumental. Pope - Petke. You don't think the drop off is that big? I'm having a bad dream here to believe people won't notice a huge difference.

Amen brother. As for Petke being "wooed" by Bayers -- sure he was. His friend Lothar may have gotten him a "tryout" in Germany to help with Petke's MLS contract negotiations, but there is no way Petke ever had a chance to play for the team in Munich.

I hate the lineup that has a 3-man backline with Dema and Bobby in front of it.

As far as that goes, I hate any lineup that has Marco as a starter, but that's a whole other argument I guess.

[Th4119]

Originally posted by boydreilly
The drop off is monumental. Pope - Petke. You don't think the drop off is that big? I'm having a bad dream here to believe people won't notice a huge difference.

At less than half the salary, playing in at least 25% more games, we got value and value wins in MLS my friend.

[boydreilly]

Originally posted by Thamlin19
At less than half the salary, playing in at least 25% more games, we got value and value wins in MLS my friend.

And here I thought good players win games for you. Did you get a discount on your ticket?

[Th4119]

Originally posted by boydreilly
And here I thought good players win games for you. Did you get a discount on your ticket?

If that was true, and we had won MLS Cup for the last 3 years because of the "good" players (i.e. Pope, Moreno, etc.) winning games for us, then we probably wouldn't have had to trade them.

Again, a good player in MLS is determined by his value to the team. Someone making 15.8% of the salary cap as a defender, and playing in a MAXIMUM of 75% of our games is not a good value, and therefore, regardless of skill level, is not a good player to have. Nelsen showed that he can be the vocal leader of our back line, and with that Petke should be able to do alright.

We lose a small amount of skill towards defending, but Petke is still a solid player who will arguably fight harder for this team than anyone else on the pitch. Also, in the air on offense, Petke is at least as good as Pope now, and is still improving more rapidly than "Steady Eddie".

I love Eddie Pope as much as the next guy, but this was a great move for the team.

[entropy]

Originally posted by Thamlin19
If that was true, and we had won MLS Cup for the last 3 years because of the "good" players (i.e. Pope, Moreno, etc.) winning games for us, then we probably wouldn't have had to trade them.

Again, a good player in MLS is determined by his value to the team. Someone making 15.8% of the salary cap as a defender, and playing in a MAXIMUM of 75% of our games is not a good value, and therefore, regardless of skill level, is not a good player to have. Nelsen showed that he can be the vocal leader of our back line, and with that Petke should be able to do alright.

We lose a small amount of skill towards defending, but Petke is still a solid player who will arguably fight harder for this team than anyone else on the pitch. Also, in the air on offense, Petke is at least as good as Pope now, and is still improving more rapidly than "Steady Eddie".

I love Eddie Pope as much as the next guy, but this was a great move for the team.

DING DING DING DING DING

We have a winner.

Plus, Petke's on the upside of his career, while Pope is on the downside. Christ, I never though I'd write a sentence like that.

[JAnderson14]

Originally posted by boydreilly
And here I thought good players win games for you. Did you get a discount on your ticket?
Don't be so naive.

Look, no one here wanted to trade Pope. I doubt any poster worth reading on this board wanted to keep Etcheverry over Pope. However, the facts are clear:

1. We had to trade maximum salary players so we could move out of the league basement.
2. Eddie Pope has at least 2 more years at his highest level, and a few more after that as a good defender. This translates to "value".
3. Etcheverry is on the slide and has been for 3 years. He doesn't have much time left, and he can only give flashes of brilliance. This does not translate to value.

We all knew Moreno would go, and I'm sure if Etcheverry had taken the UAE deal then Pope would have stayed. However, the moment Etcheverry signed his contract, the Pope trade was a done deal. It sucks, but that's life with a salary cap.

Now then, this trade and formation news...I strongly doubt we'll see that formation on opening day. Kovalenko has no experience being a holding or defensive midfielder, and (while he did do well at it alongside Chino in a couple games) we all know Convey's natural position is not there. Even if we make no moves at all until the beginning of the season, we would see McKinley on for one of those five. It's just too weak a midfield defensively.

Also, I think Hudson is smart enough to know Reyes belongs in defense no matter what formation we play. What about this lineup...

--------- Rimando
---- Reyes Nelsen Petke/Prideaux
Olsen Kovalenko McKinley Convey
--------- Etcheverry
------ Quaranta Allocation

Petke and Prideaux are very likely competing for one spot. Nelsen is our man in central defense, and we all know how important Reyes is. Prideaux played that left-sided marking back position well in KC, so it will be a welcome competition for spots.

We know what we're getting with Olsen and Convey on the wings, and their form will be key. This formation is an amalgamation of what I think Hudson will do and what I would do...I don't like the fact that our three most likely to be sent off players are right in the center of midfield, but as things stand right now that's how it has to be. This formation also mirrors what Hudson did in Miami, with Kovalenko taking the Jim Rooney role and McKinley taking the Bishop role.

I think we can all admit that it's a stronger midfield than we had last season, and depending on the ability of the allocation, we should be better at forward too. It is a step down in defense, but there is this: Nelsen moves into his natural position in the center of defense rather than on one side or the other of Pope.

Personally, I would like to see this tried out:

------- Rimando
Reyes Nelsen Petke Prideaux
-------- McKinley
Kovalenko Convey Olsen
--- Quaranta Allocation

In this formation, Reyes would come forward often with Kovalenko moving alongside Convey in central midfield. Prideaux is not the best left back, but right now it's the best we can do.

[Th4119]

Originally posted by JAnderson14

Personally, I would like to see this tried out:

------- Rimando
Reyes Nelsen Petke Prideaux
-------- McKinley
Kovalenko Convey Olsen
--- Quaranta Allocation

In this formation, Reyes would come forward often with Kovalenko moving alongside Convey in central midfield. Prideaux is not the best left back, but right now it's the best we can do.

I like this one a lot.

Also, if Hudson insisted on a 3-5-2 then you could pull Petke or Prideaux and put Etch up near Convey and it could be equally effective.