The France NSR Thread

[sl7vk]

In the last issue, The Economist made a good point that the European labor system is set up to protect those who have jobs at the expense of those that don't. The students are protesting to join the protected class, and will not accept any measure that could stand in the way of that.

Sachin

Unfortunatly they don't realize that they are not in that class, and most of them are having a damned tough time finding it into that class.

[Pierre-Henri]

They are stuck in-between. They want the security of socialism, with the money of capitalism. France was never able to clearly choose between the two.

[YankBastard]

In the last issue, The Economist made a good point that the European labor system is set up to protect those who have jobs at the expense of those that don't. The students are protesting to join the protected class, and will not accept any measure that could stand in the way of that.

Sachin

Link?

[Sachin]

http://www.economist.com/world/europe/displaystory.cfm?story_id=E1_VGGNTTQ

You may not have access to it if you don't subscribe.

Sachin

[YankBastard]

http://www.economist.com/world/europe/displaystory.cfm?story_id=E1_VGGNTTQ

You may not have access to it if you don't subscribe.

Sachin

Goddammit, those bastards make you pay to read the whole article. :mad:

[quentinc]

Goddammit, those bastards make you pay to read the whole article. :mad:
Just go to Barnes & Noble and take it off the rack and read that particular article. By doing that, I read the Economist every week and don't pay a dime.

[sl7vk]

Just go to Barnes & Noble and take it off the rack and read that particular article. By doing that, I read the Economist every week and don't pay a dime.

Take that capatilism!!!!! [/shakes fist at]

[YankBastard]

Just go to Barnes & Noble and take it off the rack and read that particular article. By doing that, I read the Economist every week and don't pay a dime.

That's what I used to do when I used to live near a B&N, I used to read that and The New Republic.

[quentinc]

Take that capatilism!!!!! [/shakes fist at]
Yeah, totally. I read an entire book there sometimes. :D

[ilv2]

It's hard to explain, but this law is only a trigger. The real roots are deeper than this. Unemployment, poor economic situation, incredible complexity of french bureaucracy*, ghettoes (which are a relatively new reality in France), ruin of our education system, outdated and incompetent politicians... Everything is threading together and no one seems to have any operative solution.

which makes one think about next year's elections. Looking at the potential candidates, the future promises only more malaise.

To bring up another discussion, one issue that has been quite a large talking point in France is the lack of dialogue between the governments (i.e. both left and right throughout history) and its citizens. While the students and syndicates want to fight for the ideal of social protection and security, it does not necessarily mean that they don't recognize the need for reform. However, the problem is with the case of the CPE is that the de Villepin passed the law without any attempt at consulting or even speaking with them beforehand. Moreover, what really baffles me is that de Villepin even put the law through as a decret instead of through parliament, which hasn't been done since the Algerian war!
A comparison that I see a lot of people make is with Germany where the tradition of debate and dialogue (please no off-color comments) is longstanding. As a result, recent reforms, which inevitably have faced opposition, are still accepted and have not produced any movements like the one we see in France presently. While this is not to paint the picture that republican governments have actually been dictatorships, the CPE is a perfect example of a particular pseudo-napoleonesque approach to governance that simply has no place in "modern" society, regardless of it's speculated benefits.

[guignol]

It's hard to explain, but this law is only a trigger. The real roots are deeper than this. Unemployment, poor economic situation, incredible complexity of french bureaucracy*, ghettoes (which are a relatively new reality in France), ruin of our education system, outdated and incompetent politicians... Everything is threading together and no one seems to have any operative solution.with all respect for your lucid and well-informed opinions, i must beg to differ on almost all points.

first, if the trade union movement has by necessity latched onto this issue to stop their slow slide into insignifigance, the primary force behind these demonstrations comes from students who are largely untouched by the problems of the cités, and you can't link this to the general (and very real) malaise that led to the turmoil of last november.

they aren't resisting this measure from conservatism. they realize that something must be done about youth unemployment, and that this is an effort in that direction but they are rightfully wary: in the past, the 35 hour week, the contrat emploi solidarité, and a host of other "good" ideas have all failed largely due to the capacity the patronat to find ways of turning the situation to their advantages and making things worse instead of better. fears that employers will simply use the CPE like a roll of toilet paper may be false but they are well supported by experience!

as for the french school system, as an member of the FCPE and a former teacher i know it has problems, but it's hardly in ruins, and compares very favorably to what i know of schools in the US.

the same goes for the politicians. as little confidence as they inspire, do you really know a country that can boast better?

--------------
for example, as a single french citizen,at the same time, I'm ruled at :

- municipal level
- intercity/county level
- departmental level
- regional level
- national level
- european level

All this levels have their own elected representatives, their own assemblies, their own administration, their own set of laws, and (of course) their own set of taxes.

this is cogent, but this multiplication of strata is relatively new and destined to be temporary. the fact is that france and europe is in the middle of a great period of flux.

firstthe municipal/intercity levels that exist in large cities are not really as conflictual as all that. it produces a few silly anecdotes but mainly an important synergy that is undoubtedly positive.

the next couplet is department/region. the former are progressively giving way to the latter; eventually the department will be no more important than the canton and you see you didn't include this in your list ;) .

finally, a balance has to be found between Europe and its constituent nations.

in the end we will have a system axed on european, regional and (supra)municipal administrations. i consider it more as a progression than a quagmire.

[Pierre-Henri]

I agree with you to say that students fighting against CPE are basicly right. They have the right to know why they have been fired. If not, it simply annihilates workers rights, and allow any kind of abuse. Sexual harassment not the least : "sleep with me or I fire you".

As, for the ruin of french education, sorry, but we're dead.

Recently, I was in contact with the University of Ottawa. I did some math, and I discovered that the university of Ottawa has a budget per student 14 TIMES superior to the budget of my alma mater.

I don't say 14 %, hein, but really 14 TIMES (multiply by 14).

If this is not "ruin" to you, I don't know what it is.

[Sachin]

http://powerlineblog.com/archives/capt.dlm10103281515.france_job_protests_dlm101-thumb.jpg

I wonder if Chirac stormed out of the room when he saw this sign.

Sachin

[Nanbawan]

A comparison that I see a lot of people make is with Germany where the tradition of debate and dialogue (please no off-color comments) is longstanding. As a result, recent reforms, which inevitably have faced opposition, are still accepted and have not produced any movements like the one we see in France presently. While this is not to paint the picture that republican governments have actually been dictatorships, the CPE is a perfect example of a particular pseudo-napoleonesque approach to governance that simply has no place in "modern" society, regardless of it's speculated benefits.

I pretty much agree with everything you wrote in your post dude ! I wish you were working at CNN or other international media so that they could give a better insight on our country. ;)

Well, we witnessed yet another episode of the resident French 'clash culture' which roughly means that in a perverse way, the government also wait for something to happen in such cases. No preliminary negociations, if you're not happy, we'll see you in the streets, if not, we won. A strange and tedious tradition. Not that I'm against demonstrations and all, it's just sometimes you'd think that we would have made some progress in social dialogue ; it's not really the first time that we're facing yet again a similar situation.

Concerning Villepin in this affair, one can think that besides his personal nature he also fell victim of the current trend of political marketing. That means the way he governs is supposed to give him some credits among his electoral basis as much as the actual decisions he takes. Monsieur de Villepin has suffered from a lack of legitimity from the moment he was nominated by president Chirac, this mailnly due to the fact that he's never had an electedmandate.

It's probable that he wanted to mark his territory on this one with 2007 and the presidential election coming plus the political battle he's entrenched in with Sarkozy. If I let my hidden cynical nature come to surface, I'd say it's also likely that the PM wanted some results due to the CPE (should figures be a little bit arranged regarding the number of contracts that would have been mechanically substituted to usual contracts) in order to appear as the man who stood firm for his reform, his policy, for modernity and more importantly -in marketing terms- for Change in a country that is widely said to be unable to deal with it i.e. the guy you'd better vote for in this right wing shifting and ever changing world. To make it short, to be the man of the situation (more than Sarkozy anyway). Strangely -or not- he did not try to pass the law during the summer vacations as it's often the case for reforms you'd like to go unnoticed. At least when adopted by the Parliament.

This marketing policy is really a plague in the modern political debate. Style over substance, not really new but most importantly nowadays it means that governments and parties are in a state of permanent electoral communication hence the way some very important decisions for the country are brought on the scene. And you have to say, the UMP (Chirac's party) has been designed to be a winning machine even if this entity is suffering from political if not ideological incoherence between free-marketers, conservatives and centrists who still retain the social ideas of the Gaullist movement (like Chirac, sort of). This said, it's symetrically true with the stretch that also affects the socialist party ; the main difference being the UMP has been able to try and show unity in order to win elections, yet until then they only had one clear candidate as well...

***

To answer to Pierre-Henri about France finding difficult 'to chose' between socialism and capitalism, I think in the end the French just want the best balance for their life. The dream of very high wages is usually less important than being able to enjoy stable conditions and of course a certain prosperity but not the kind that would disrupt the ultimate interest of having this so-called 'qualité de vie'. So, the notion of 'opportunity' might be different here than in some other countries. They can tell what they want, but in the end you can hardly disconnect politics from cultural specificities. This from someone who is sometimes annoyed by the fact his countrymen's dreams seem to be dull and 'petit bourgeois'...*hem* as long as one can have the choice. which is the problem thinking about it...

***

I wonder if Chirac stormed out of the room when he saw this sign.

Sachin

It's really interesting to observe the influence and the interaction with international media. A side effect of globalisation...

Oh, and Jacques 'What do you want ? Me to go back to my plane ?' Chirac is the best diplomatic stuntman of his kind. ;)

[Nanbawan]

Récréation (http://www.pooxi.com/player.php?video=shooting-biathlon&pl=1#player) ! :)

[guignol]

Recently, I was in contact with the University of Ottawa. I did some math, and I discovered that the university of Ottawa has a budget per student 14 TIMES superior to the budget of my alma mater. I don't say 14 %, hein, but really 14 TIMES (multiply by 14) If this is not "ruin" to you, I don't know what it is. thanks for the math lesson P-H! ;)

a statistic like that has to have some twist. when you say budget per student, do you mean the money spent more or less directly on educating that student, or does it include research, sports programmes, and other items that have nothing to do with classrooms?

and where does the money come from? just how much of that budget do the students themselves have to foot?

i don't say your remarks are false, but i think there may be factors that reduce their signifigance. moreover i know nothing about the university of ottawa, i'm only inferring from what i know about universities in california. if fees at facultés in france were more than the average working class family disposes of in annual income, i daresay they would have larger budgets; i'm not sure that's what we want.

personal experience is anecdotal, but here's mine. i went to a large public university, CSUSJ, and did a year at the fac de lettres in aix. (majors french and history). the difference in the level of instruction was striking. only one of my professors at aix i did not consider better than the best i had at san josé, where i had a few really bad ones:

- in bio 101 we got standard lectures that the prof hadn't updated in 20 years. to get 100% on the tests you actually had to answer certain questions wrong. :rolleyes:

- in italian i don't think the prof spoke more than 10% of the time in italian, and more than half the students didn't actually speak a word all semester. so much for Teacher Talking Time!

- in history of the city anything that either didn't come straight out of mumford or from the teacher's own silver tongue was simply false. i wrote a brilliant paper on lelystad, with sources in 3 languages, including official city statistics, the kind of exposé the prof could neither have researched or written herself in 100 years... and got a C+!

- and i won't talk about the prof for the required course group communication (la belle blague)... he was like dr. gene scott without the pyramid inches!

and red tape? despite the fact that i arrived at SJSU needing only 6 upper division credits, i had to take historiography over... a freshman course i had already done elsewhere... finally i got to pay and take the "writing workshop waiver" exam which i aced. a year later when i went to the counselor to get signed off that i'd done all my courses for my BA... they'd changed the rules, the WWW was no longer accepted for history majors...:mad:

more about the counselors... every time i got a different one, and every time a different story about what units i STILL needed to graduate... but the last one was the killer... "what are you doing here? you should have graduated 2 semesters ago!" HA-HA-HA!!!

and finally, the acceptance for the exchange programme for aix... first i got an acceptance letter, the next day a refusal... the moderator of the programme (my meraviglioso italian prof) explained i had an F on my transcript...

hey, i had a cume GPA of 3.8 and bananas, dean's list every semester, so what's this F?? an ice-skating course i had never gone to because when i signed up they hadn't told me it was in saratoga 30 miles away. normally students with zero attendance are dropped from class roster, but this prof kept me on because without me there were'nt enough students to not cancel the course... "c'mon you're not gonna keep me out for that???" "yes because it shows you're not a serious student". hey i'll give you serious student! i won a ********ing medal at aix and the mod for CSU there said i saved their bacon, the general level of their students there was so low they were almost going to drum the program out of existence!

and another thing!!!
... no, i'll stop here, this is bad for my heart!

[guignol]

yes, and another thing! education doesn't start at university!

i went to a fairly prestigious private HS in the states, but compared to normal public schools here in france it was peanuts. sure i know there are problems schools here in france, but they don't have metal detectors!

my kids went to public school in CA last year, in a privileged area, probably the best in the county. and despite the fact they had to struggle with the language at first they were first in class; if it wasn't for the novelty they would have been bored senseless. for math they put my son from 4th to 5th grade and when that didn't suffice, the teacher just made up special courses for him. now that is excellent reaction on the part of the school, and i could go on and on about all the great things about their schools in the states, but don't forget that this school was no more representative of the US school system than a diamond is of the 5 tons of rock you have to dig it out of, and even so the level was inferior to what they had here.

[ilv2]

thanks for the math lesson P-H! ;)

a statistic like that has to have some twist. when you say budget per student, do you mean the money spent more or less directly on educating that student, or does it include research, sports programmes, and other items that have nothing to do with classrooms?

and where does the money come from? just how much of that budget do the students themselves have to foot?[/I]

I agree with this point - the stat means nothing without any specific information regarding it's usage. I give a limb every semester to USC and inflate their already ridiculous bank account - frankly I don't feel like I see any bit of it given back to mean that could be of any use besides the diploma at the end which is only of value because of the myth of the "trojan family." The most shocking waste of money, IMO, is the famed football program, which recieves a deluge of funds every year (the head coach earns over a million every season) to accomplish what exactly? The prestige - endorsements, enrollement, advertising - MONEY that the university would earn as a result. But what role then does your undergraduate student play? None, unless it is to be another face in the crowd on match days, buying tickets and USC clothing for themselves and their families.
On a related note, with all the prestige of being enrolled at USC, the academic level of the students is stunningly poor, which nullifies in effect, the very real benefit of our excellent professors. After all, what they can accomplish only goes as far as the average quality of the students that they teach. Yet, the goal of the school does not revolve around the quality of academics, and the augementation thereof; rather, as a private institution, it is the size of their bank account that matters the most.
Be wary therefore, of any comparisons between education systems of different countries - the french system itself is very different from any other that I have studied, or been familiar with.

[guignol]

with all the prestige of being enrolled at USC, the academic level of the students is stunningly poor, which nullifies in effect, the very real benefit of our excellent professors... well, we didn't have the excellent professors, but clearly such would have been wasted. there were three types of students at SJSU:

- the chinese, whom i only met in math class. i don't know how many hours a day they studied except that it was obviously not more than 24. :p

- the adult crowd like me, many returning to school, who pulled down fulltime jobs, plus incredible 3-way commutes and still did well.

- the majority: shiftless kids who must have got their HS diplomas in boxes of captain crunch, who just couldn't believe it was possible to do more than 12 units a semester, what with the big pizza-beer lunches at the student union, the dorm keg parties, the pep rallies... the future of america... and we wonder how a frat punk like bush can be president :(

[TheOrator]

French youth in job training after new law takes affect:
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41503000/jpg/_41503988_2blockadeafp203c.jpg