The France NSR Thread

[guignol]

Somehow, I can understand Yankbastard reaction. Let's face it, french and francophile posters, we also hear a lot of stupid things about USA in France. We, french, tend to patronize other people a lot, especially americans. obviously there will always be those who make sweeping generalizations about places they've never been, and it's hard for anyone in the world not to have an opinion about the USA (why so many english and americans have a fixation about france is more of a mystery).

but all in all, what i read about the states in the nouvel obs or le monde is always much more pertinent than what the parisian correspondants for time or newsweek have to say about france. and it's clear that BHL knows a lot more about america than say, jonah goldberg does about europe: the same décalage goes right through the strata of the two societies. no frenchman has ever asked me if we had photocopiers or microwave ovens in the states.

these france boards show this out; the general tone here is friendly and enlightened, and the regulars are all pleasant, open-minded and knowledgeable. wandering into other sections of BS i've sometimes been shocked at the difference. dip into world rivalries, politics & current events, or even the purely football related boards for england and MSL sometime... distressing! it's tedious that posters who have no real interest in france or french football feel the need to come here carrying the same attitude, and the same level of debate.

but my word to them is STAY! on the condition that you don't just cut & paste francophobe articles without giving your opinions and the reasons behind them. and leave your foxpotato ideas about france at the door; you can get them back on the way out, but once you have some real discussions with us, realize that we're not as closeminded about the other countries and ways of doing things as you think, you may not want them anymore!

[sl7vk]

or even the purely football related boards for england and MSL sometime... distressing!


So true! That is why this is and always will be my favorite board.

[Nanbawan]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4842734.stm


So...?

[gary_rb]

there are hotter topics that would need you to focus on, dear president ;)

anyway, I would like you to know that nobody cares about the hegemony of French language and culture over the world (see why the rest of the world compares us to aliens from Mars who always come and try to invade them) besides people from his generation, who are nostalgic of that period when some idiot ;) called De Gaulle and who is now considered as a god was president

[gaijin]

there are hotter topics that would need you to focus on, dear president ;)

anyway, I would like you to know that nobody cares about the hegemony of French language and culture over the world (see why the rest of the world compares us to aliens from Mars who always come and try to invade them) besides people from his generation, who are nostalgic of that period when some idiot ;) called De Gaulle and who is now considered as a god was president

And where have you been? lol.

I was looking at the Rennes thread a few days ago and contemplating if gary had vanished off the face of the earth via large atomic explosion, had been abducted by aliens, or simply found a hot Czech girl with big boobs.

Welcome back anyway. :)

[sl7vk]

Mmmmmm..... Czech girls with biguns.....

[gaijin]

Mmmmmm..... Czech girls with biguns.....

And in unrelated matter, its time to clear my hard-drive.

[gary_rb]

or simply found a hot Czech girl with big boobs.

only one of these assumptions is false ;)

Welcome back anyway. :)

thank you :)

[sl7vk]

only one of these assumptions is false ;)



thank you :)

I'm glad you found yourself a Czech girl... :D

[guignol]

my travels to the wilds of eastern europe are limited to shorts visits to budapest and prague back in 1983...

i had the distinct impression that, where the DDR was wasting their time breeding and raising track and field and swimming champions, hungary and czechoslovakia were turning out babes with un monde fou au balcon!

[guignol]

the paradox about chirac in the above affair is that he personally speaks reasonably good english, and he's spent quite a lot of time in the states; he went to tulane university and reportedly even washed dishes at howard johnsons! if anything he knows more about the life and trials of the average american than the silverspoon oilbrat does!

[Sachin]

obviously there will always be those who make sweeping generalizations about places they've never been, and it's hard for anyone in the world not to have an opinion about the USA (why so many english and americans have a fixation about france is more of a mystery).


It's not really much of a mystery, IMHO. If you have any claims to be part of Western Civilization, you are, ipso facto, a Francophile. France is the soul of the West. Always has been, always will be. To see French society under attack is distressing, even if we don't always understand why.

People always talk about the French as arrogant, but I don't see that. Parisians can be jerks, just like people from every big city can be. But most French people I've met tend to be bewildered by what's going on around them.

Sachin

[YankBastard]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4850604.stm

French students flex their "muscles"
By Henri Astier
BBC News, Paris

Universities across France have been disrupted by blockades
Revolt is in the air in France and, as usual, students in the streets rather than politicians in parliament, are leading the charge against an embattled government.

French students are angry about a new law - pushed through parliament last month - which makes it easy for employers to sack young people.

The movement has taken the form of huge rallies joined by trade unions, with another day of marches and strikes due on Tuesday.

But students have also taken vigorous, direct action by blockading hundreds of universities and schools across France. It is in these revolutionary microcosms that the uprising is being hatched.

At Jussieu University in Paris - the focus of many past student revolts - insurrectional excitement is palpable.

"We are in our fifth week of blockade," Marie Gombeaud, a 19-year-old biology student, says proudly.

She has put aside laboratory work for the time being, and is mobilising students, administrating an internet forum on the protests and staffing checkpoints around the Jussieu campus.

Planning

The main entrance is chained and barricaded by a clutter of overturned chairs, rubbish bins and desks. At side entrances, Ms Gombeaud and other students are restricting access to a few chosen activists.

Lelio Stettin, 23, the local leader, currently exerts more authority over the campus than the vice-chancellor, who has so far refrained from calling in the security forces.


So many things need to be done

Lelio Stettin,
Student leader

Mr Stettin is a busy man. His phone is ringing constantly.

"So many things need to be done: we have to prepare for another general assembly, leaflets have to be written and printed, we need placards for Tuesday's marches.

"Megaphones, sound systems and vans also have to be arranged. Excuse me, I must take this call."

University staff are also allowed into and out of the grounds - but they are not working. On Monday they were holding their own general assembly to decide whether they would also strike.

A mile away, at the heart of the Latin Quarter, the Sorbonne University too is closed.

But the students are no longer in control - police expelled them after they tried to take over the buildings more than two weeks ago.

Now the capital's flagship university is surrounded by security forces in heavy riot gear. However, Sorbonne annexes on the outskirts of the city are still controlled by striking students.

Merging movements

At one of the sites, in Clignancourt, north of Paris, preparations are going ahead for the forthcoming protests.

"We are working out how, where and when we are all going to meet," says Simon Vacheron, 23, a history student.


Students say the protests have been infiltrated by trouble-makers
One big concern is over security. During previous marches demonstrators have been attacked by troublemakers. Some students have been given the task of protecting others during the rally, Mr Vacheron says.

Violence during the protests has been blamed on various groups - far-right activists, anarchists and sundry outsiders.

But the apparent involvement of some youths from the immigrant suburbs of Paris - who carried out their own uprising last November - divides the current protesters.

"It breaks my heart that thugs are trying to destroy the movement," says Mr Vacheron. "They too are the victims of economic insecurity. The protests are aimed at helping them!"

But others see the current protests and the riots that erupted in France's impoverished suburbs last year as two sides of the same coin.

"Both are revolts against economic insecurity," says Victor Vidilles, a leader of France's main student union, Unef.

"The two movements are merging, with blockades taking place in universities in immigrant suburbs."

Choice

Two-thirds of France's universities are being seriously disrupted. French student power has an impressive track record.



I want to study, but students are not being given a choice

Zhor Hocine,
Secondary school student
The May 1968 uprisings helped undermine the legitimacy of General Charles de Gaulle, who stood down the following year, and subsequent government plans - notably in 1986, 1994, 1995, and 2005 - were shelved in the face of mass student protests.

This explains why demonstrators are scenting blood. The government has clearly been wrong-footed and blockades have spread to hundreds of secondary schools across the country.

The students have vowed to continue their movement until Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin withdraws the employment plan - known as the CPE.

However not all agree with the blockades.

"I am taking my final exams at the end of the year," says Zhor Hocine, a final year student at the Lycee Rabelais, a blockaded secondary school in northern Paris.

"I want to study, but students are not being given a choice."

Occupations 'illegal'

An active anti-blockade movement has been formed to try to reopen schools and universities.

Sebastien Bordmann, one of the movement's leaders, sees a bitter irony in the fact that many of the current protesters also took to the streets during the 2002 presidential election against far-right candidate Jean-Marie Le Pen.

"They were against the fascists then. Now they are behaving just like them."

Occupations and blockades, Mr Bordmann says, are totally illegal. "Right is on our side," he adds.

For the moment, however, might and numbers are on the side of the protesters - and the anti-CPE coalition is hoping to turn Tuesday's marches and strikes into a decisive show of force.

[guignol]

yes we know all about that, but what do you have to say about it? since you're here, one would think you have an opinion.

[YankBastard]

yes we know all about that, but what do you have to say about it? since you're here, one would think you have an opinion.

I think the students are fighting for their rights. I like the social model of Europe, but I see with all that's going on that the consequences of trying to be a competetive market at the same time are starting to strain their economy and they might not be able to keep their social model without being a little flexible. But I understand the plight of the students who believe in their social model and don't want to change it just to be more "competitive" and the policies that are being intruduced will probably not be the only ones to change in the long run, so they understand that they need to fight it now and stop it now.

[sl7vk]

The sad thing is that I think the new youth employment laws are beneficial to youths who are stuck with contracts and internships in the current model.

[YankBastard]

The sad thing is that I think the new youth employment laws are beneficial to youths who are stuck with contracts and internships in the current model.

Well they don't exactly share your sentiments:


France hit by mass job protests

http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/06/europe_enl_1143553223/img/1.jpg

Tuesday, 28 March 2006, 17:28 GMT 18:28 UK

There were scuffles as protesters gathered in Paris
About a million people are estimated to have joined demonstrations across France against the government's controversial youth employment laws.
Fighting broke out as protesters gathered in Paris, and missiles were hurled at police as they moved into the crowds to try to remove troublemakers.

The BBC's Jon Sopel in Paris said the protest was initially mainly peaceful, but the mood had deteriorated.

A nationwide strike has also caused travel chaos throughout the country.

Arrest orders

As the trouble erupted in the Place de la Republique in north-east Paris, our correspondent said his BBC crew had also come under attack, although he added the violence had remained "low-level" so far.

The BBC's Emma Jane Kirby, also in the French capital, said that despite the trouble, the majority of protesters had been marching peacefully.

Extra riot police were deployed before the march, after a rally in Paris last week led to running battles.

French Interior Minister Nicolas Sarkozy told them to only get tough with those he called delinquents.

"My first instruction is that you protect the demonstrators, especially the youngest ones," he said.

"The second instruction is to arrest as many thugs, that means delinquents, as you can."

As the violence continued, police used tear gas to try to disperse the troublemakers.

Meanwhile workers and students in more than 100 other towns and cities were calling for the government to scrap the controversial employment contracts.

Police estimated about one million people had taken to the streets across the country.

Unions said between 200,000 and 250,000 people turned out for a march in Marseille - many more than at the previous worker-student demonstrations on 18 March.

In the western city of Nantes, police put the figure at 42,000, more than double the 18 March turnout. Le Mans, Rouen and Tours also reported increased crowds.

"We are here for our children. We are very worried about what will happen to them," said Philippe Decrulle, a demonstrator in Paris.

"My son is 23, and he has no job. That is normal in France," he told the Associated Press news agency.

Strike bites

Meanwhile a nationwide strike closed large parts of France's transport networks.

As transport workers joined the strike, commuters were left battling with widespread disruption as large parts of the country's rail, bus and air networks came to a halt.

Airport authorities warned of delays and cancellations and urged passengers to check with their airlines.


Protesters came out in force on the streets of Marseille


Enlarge Image


Schools, post-offices, banks, government offices and unemployment bureaux are also experiencing serious disruption.

Protesters are bitterly opposed to the First Employment Contract (CPE), which allows employers to end job contracts for under-26s at any time during a two-year trial period without having to offer an explanation or give prior warning.

The government says it will encourage employers to hire young people but students fear it will erode job stability in a country where more than 20% of 18 to 25-year-olds are unemployed - more than twice the national average.

The BBC's Caroline Wyatt in Paris says these latest demonstrations are a real test of the Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin's resolve, and it is hard to see how he can break the stalemate.

To find a solution without losing face - or ground to his main rival for the presidency, Mr Sarkozy - is proving the biggest challenge of Mr de Villepin's political career, our correspondent adds.

[sl7vk]

I think the world should agree with me more often.

I know they don't agree with me, and that is ok. It's their future not mine they are fighting for, so they have a larger vested interest then me.

Labor laws in France are so ********ed up it baffles though. Things will need to change.

[Pierre-Henri]

It's hard to explain, but this law is only a trigger. The real roots are deeper than this. Unemployment, poor economic situation, incredible complexity of french bureaucracy*, ghettoes (which are a relatively new reality in France), ruin of our education system, outdated and incompetent politicians... Everything is threading together and no one seems to have any operative solution.

--------------
* for example, as a single french citizen,at the same time, I'm ruled at :

- municipal level
- intercity/county level
- departmental level
- regional level
- national level
- european level

All this levels have their own elected representatives, their own assemblies, their own administration, their own set of laws, and (of course) their own set of taxes.

And we are the only democracy I know with both a president and a PM (I mean a president with real powers, of course).

[Sachin]

In the last issue, The Economist made a good point that the European labor system is set up to protect those who have jobs at the expense of those that don't. The students are protesting to join the protected class, and will not accept any measure that could stand in the way of that.

Sachin