The France NSR Thread

[ilv2]

^lol, i don't think he has any real belief that he'll win. He is, however, a crafty little bastard, pardon my french.
Aren't there talks about increasing the number of official signatures to 10,000 instead of 500? IMO, I understand the ridiculousness of having an unusual amount of parties, but with less stringent requirements, IMO the system is in fact more democratic.

YB is just indulging in some harmless teasing in a spirit... bon enfant. the clues are 1) his new avatar and 2) his link going to story is from ha'aretz... with popups for real estate in israel as a bonus. if you read the story in full you see that the only nations that don't "hate israel and support terrorism" are "The U.S., Israel and Australia [...] along with four Pacific Island nations."

no, i understand that it's harmless ribbing, which is all good fun. But again, there's a point at which it becomes, as you say, 'beyond tedious'

actually from the articles I've read on Ha'aretz, they represent a more "moderate" line of Israeli press. The article in particular does well to give a balanced context to the inflammatory statements.

[Douai]

"Firefighters' protest erupts into violence in Paris"

"PARIS: French riot police fired tear gas during violent protests Tuesday in Paris by firefighters demanding a monthly bonus and retirement with full benefits at age 55."

Source: http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2006/11/21/europe/EU_GEN_France_Firefighters.php

[YankBastard]

http://brevehistoire.free.fr/Image/Tchernenko.jpg
TCHERNENKO

He looks like Boris Yeltzin

[Pierre-Henri]

The firefighters even torched two cars. This country is going crazy.

The 500 signatures are a lower limit, but there isn't any higher limit. It means the big candidates, Sarkozy and Royal, are stacking signatures. Five years ago, they didn't stack the signatures, meaning we had something like 18 candidates, with the disastrous result you know.

Many people in France (the two main parties, most of the medias) are trying to promote a US-like bipartisan system. It explains all the buzz around the socialists primary, and the continuously streaming Sarko-show on TV. Media business likes simple things and is trying to sell us politics as if it were a wrestling contest.

2 candidates are not enough, 18 are way too many... it's very difficult to find the balance.

[Nanbawan]

The firefighters even torched two cars. This country is going crazy.


Social dialogue à la française take 3 ! *clap*

2 candidates are not enough, 18 are way too many... it's very difficult to find the balance.


As long as we can vote for the Parti de la Loi Naturelle (http://walex.cigogne.org/index.php/2005/10/21/3726-le-parti-de-la-loi-naturelle), it's all fine, really...

As a French viewer, I fondly remember this political ad (http://champi42.free.fr/docs/politique/partidelaloinaturelle.avi) which I was very much glad to find. Bah, that or the choice we're facing...

Speaking of which...Sarko might be going a wee bit too far with this one...;)

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x4imb_sarkozy-2007

Meanwhile Jacques Chirac...

mms://vipmms.canalplus.fr/canalplus/grandjournal_061122_b.wmv @ 08:20

This link will probably be outdated soon, maybe there'll be a video available on YouTube or dailymotion ; anyway, Chichi being bored to tears is a joy to watch !

[ilv2]

Here's a weblink to the a short video of the pompier manif if anyone is interested in viewing. I can't help but feel gleeful when I hear about firefighters who are willing to "duke it out" with the crs - it's a nice reminder that the system of order is comprised of human beings after all, who have human interests themselves.

http://www.lemonde.fr/web/video/0,47-0@2-3226,54-837132,0.html


Many people in France (the two main parties, most of the medias) are trying to promote a US-like bipartisan system. It explains all the buzz around the socialists primary, and the continuously streaming Sarko-show on TV. Media business likes simple things and is trying to sell us politics as if it were a wrestling contest.

hmm stacking in what sense? I had the impression that the left was trying to do encourage solidarity in reaction to 2002. The right's version, well, was a little uglier but in general the right is always more unified so I don't know if there is a new stacking phenomenon.
However, I definately understand the point of about media involvement turning the contest into a wrestling match. The real issues are lost amid the two character struggles, and the issues that do come out are so cartoonish in nature that they simply have no real basis in campaigning. Sarko's fight against delinquance for example. While it is an important topic, it's still peripheral when compared to the desperate need for economic reform, education reform, etc. (I would also say social reform, but we know what karcher's idea of this means). The left's version of this IMO is sego's victory in the primaries.


Speaking of which...Sarko might be going a wee bit too far with this one...;)

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x4imb_sarkozy-2007

Meanwhile Jacques Chirac...

mms://vipmms.canalplus.fr/canalplus/grandjournal_061122_b.wmv @ 08:20


That's a catchy tune!! :D

and the Chirac clip is absolutely hilarious - i'm clean out of rep though. In any case, doesn't that make you want to vote for him? Just a little bit? You can't just throw away all the good times and the bons souvenirs :(

[Pierre-Henri]

Stacking was maybe inacurate. Candidates need 500 signatures. But they can get 10 000 signatures or so ... meaning there are less available signatures for other candidates.

The left is trying to learn from 2002. They faced many small candidates : Taubira, Chevènement, the green party, the 4 different communists parties... 1 % here, 4 % there, and say goodbye to the second round. This strategy (La gauche plurielle) was utterly stupid. Only someone as desperately incompetent as Jospin could device such a cretinous plan. Now, they are trying to unify the different leftist factions, which is an herculean task, but at least they are trying.

Beware of the word "reform". French politicians use it exactly like a magic spell : say "reform", and all your wishes will come true.

The only operative reform would be : less bureaucracy. But the only people who possess enough powers to undertake such a change (the unions, the politicians) are the very same people who benefit from the bureaucracy. People who work for a commission will never say : hey, our commission is both useless and expensive, let's suppress it ! People with degrees from the ENA will never suppress the ENA. People working for the Education Nationale insanely gigantic and sovietic-like administration will always refuse to simplify it.

Education is the field I know the best. In USA, you have departments of education in universities, period. In France, to do the very same job, we have :

- Départements universitaires de sciences de l'éducation (pareil qu'aux USA)
- IUFM (instituts universitaires de formation des maîtres)
- ESEN (Ecole supérieure de l'éducation nationale)
- INRP (Institut national de recherche pédagogique)
- CNDP (Centre national de documentation pédagogique)
- CRDP (Centres régionaux de documentation pédagogique)
- IREM (Instituts de recherche pour l'enseignement des mathématiques)
- CIEP (Centre international d'études pédagogiques)
- INNOVALO (Missions d'innovation et d'expérimentation des rectorats)
- MAFPEN (Mission académique de la formation des personnels de l'éducation nationale)

And these are only the major administrations. I could find a lot of smaller ones, like les Cahiers pédagogiques, l'Ecole des Lettres, le Café pédagogique... I'm sure I could reach something like 20 different types of bureaucracies related to pedagogy. Simplify this sh*t would be the only operative solution. But only try to do it, and unions would be on strike, torching cars in the streets and the like. For one simple reason : unions leaders are also apparatchiks of the system.

Everything in France today is like a gordian knot. Bureaucracy feeding more bureaucracy, in a circular, endless waste of resources and energy.

[Nanbawan]

This strategy (La gauche plurielle) was utterly stupid. Only someone as desperately incompetent as Jospin could device such a cretinous plan. Now, they are trying to unify the different leftist factions, which is an herculean task, but at least they are trying.

The Gauche Plurielle was not a plan for the Presidentials but rather a way of governing which left a bitter taste to other parties than PS BTW and finally led to multiple bids for the elections. The situation (ie reluctance to join the socialists) among left parties is exactly the same today except that with the memory of last time spanking, they're thinking twice about it...

Everything in France today is like a gordian knot. Bureaucracy feeding more bureaucracy, in a circular, endless waste of resources and energy.



I'm not a specialist but if there's something in common between France and the US, it might be the existence of a mammoth bureaucracy !

[Nanbawan]

That's a catchy tune!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vabciMoFuPw

Comes from the first ever 'anime' to reach our shores in the late 70's and turn France into a 'tête de pont' for Japanese stuff (or japoniaiseries as they were latter called in the ever likeable fashion French like to treat and bag together -usually for the worse- foreign things).

In any case, doesn't that make you want to vote for him? Just a little bit? You can't just throw away all the good times and the bons souvenirs :(


Like most crooks, he's a charming character. There was a documentary showing on france 2 channel last month dealing with the Prez. Surprisingly direct when it came to describe who and and what he did for a broadcast about a living president in exercise on a public channel ! Well, among other things, the bit about the 'cohabitation' was quite intriguing. One of the former minister in this Jospin cabinet revealed that Chirac was so nice with them as a person and that, of course, they were inclined on being pleased by such a behaviour. Though, they were later nagged by an infuriated Lionel Jospin who could not stand this situation.

The fact is, Chirac loves to please*. Women, allies, foes, the French, the international community, etc...It's not necessarily unsincere(?), that's the way it is. It doesn't prevent him from being a cold blooded killer when he thinks he has to...Ask Philippe Seguin, his former sidekick buddy. Althrough his political career, he's been the poster child of candidates. Campaigning is what he does best, the problem is that once he gets what he was craving for, he apparently has little clue what to do with it. He has not messed up things, he rather let them rot on their own...The prospect of terminating Sarkozy seems to have revigorated him a bit.

Meanwhile in France...



*Notable exception : http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j186/momsquawk/george-bush.gif

Notable exception to the notable exception : http://enquirer.com/editions/2003/09/30/bush_150x200.jpg

[AfrcnHrbMan]

This isnt exactlly NSR but didnt know where else to put it:
http://fr.sports.yahoo.com/24112006/1/un-policier-tue-par-balle-un-supporteur-du-psg-et.html

[ilv2]

The left is trying to learn from 2002. They faced many small candidates : Taubira, Chevènement, the green party, the 4 different communists parties... 1 % here, 4 % there, and say goodbye to the second round. This strategy (La gauche plurielle) was utterly stupid. Only someone as desperately incompetent as Jospin could device such a cretinous plan. Now, they are trying to unify the different leftist factions, which is an herculean task, but at least they are trying.

I'm more of the opinion of Nanbawan in that the various factions of the left were disatisfied with the PS and decided to split of and try their own impossible presidential campaigns, and as you know, France ended up several candidates with the same policies. Then a typically fractious left, always ready for a idealist cause to champion, ended up splitting the vote.


Education is the field I know the best. In USA, you have departments of education in universities, period. In France, to do the very same job, we have

yes but Nanbawan is also very correct in saying


...there's something in common between France and the US, it might be the existence of a mammoth bureaucracy !

We might have less organizations, but trust me the public education system here is quite a mess itself. Private universities are better given their relative autonomy, but anyone from the UCs will tell you that it's not anything resembling paradise.
I was actually talking to my prof a couple days ago on this matter and she said that the idea that "the grass is greener on the other side of the atlantic" is very prevalent among the academics of the hexagon. While I'm not doubting your assessment (and I don't want to, because the inefficiency is pretty hilarious - "look at the size of that list!"), I think that a flat admiration for the american education system brushes over its very apparent problems. I believe we covered the issue of funding a while back.


Well, among other things, the bit about the 'cohabitation' was quite intriguing. One of the former minister in this Jospin cabinet revealed that Chirac was so nice with them as a person and that, of course, they were inclined on being pleased by such a behaviour. Though, they were later nagged by an infuriated Lionel Jospin who could not stand this situation.

Interesting piece of info http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/images/icons/icon14.gif , lol the image of that is hilarious (pays de merde!)

This isnt exactlly NSR but didnt know where else to put it:
http://fr.sports.yahoo.com/24112006/1/un-policier-tue-par-balle-un-supporteur-du-psg-et.html

hm it could go in the PSG section, but here works better given the inevitable nsr accusations that will flare up (i.e. anti-semitism, police abuse). They might clarify a few details tommorow, but I don't think a lot more informations is going to get out.

[Douai]

I noticed that Italy,Germany, and Argentina all have a news subforum with a BigSoccer bot.Why can't France have one?

Italy: News http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=1010
Argentina: News http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=1093

[Pierre-Henri]

I've no "flat admiration" for the US system. I know that the situation is very different from one university to another in USA. It's probably better to teach at a second tier university in France than at a second tier university in United States. To work for a state university somewhere in the South, for example, is not a good idea. Especially for french scholars.

However, if you compare first tier vs. first tier, il n'y a pas photo. In this case, I'm absolutely positive, the grass is greener. The situation of french universities today is terminal. Tell this to your prof : recently, I've been shortlisted for a job by a major canadian research university.

- Pay : almost 3 times what I could get in France. Who would say "no" to triple wages ? Not me, I can tell you.
- If i get the job, the university pays for the travel and the relocation. In France, you don't even get a bus ticket.
- Much simpler recruitment process. In France, I have to be veted by a national commission (CNU, I pay the interview), then by another commission at university level (conseil scientifique, I pay the interview), then by another commission at departmental level. In North America, everything remains at departmental level (and they pay the interview). Plus, interviews in France last 10 minutes (!). It means people travel a long time, sometimes from all over the world, at their own expenses, to speak ten minutes in front of a commission. In NA, interviews last a full day, at university expense.
- Splendid campus, nothing you can compare with the academic slums we have in France.
- Libraries that possess 10 times the number of books the best french universities have, including french speaking literature. In my field, francophone studies, major north american universities possess better documentary resources in french than french universities.
- Selective admission. That matters to me. I'm no social worker and I don't want to teach middleschool level lessons to bloody stupid illiterate undergrads.
- Maximum number of students per class : 20 (often less).
- Much better teaching/research ratio. Here again, nothing you can compare with french insane teaching and administrative loads.
- And, most of all, I've been treated like a person with a name, like a human being, not like candidate n°: 132QZR4871215, file 5791, section 09.

So : Don't leave the socialist paradise, Komrad, this iron curtain is here to protect your soul from the evil American influence ?

Sorry for the length of this post. A touchy issue, as you can imagine.

Les damnés de la thèse à la Sorbonne (http://forums.telerama.fr/forums/M0610161224130.html)
L'université française est morte, par Pierre Jourde (http://www.r-lecole.freesurf.fr/sup/jourde.html)
L'université devient une halte-garderie (http://www.r-lecole.freesurf.fr/sup/Darras.htm)
Conférence de Pierre Joliot à Strasbourg (Il explique tout très bien). (http://www.canalc2.tv/video.asp?idVideo=4492&voir=oui)

last but not least :
Laurent Lafforgue : les études classiques et la liberté de l'esprit (http://www.ihes.fr/~lafforgue/textes/SEL.pdf)
Peut être le plus beau texte écrit sur la recherche et le travail intellectuel ces dernières années.

[guignol]

notre cher P-H et sa chère marotte... que ferait-on sans? ;)

there are a number of things he mentions i've encountered that are indeed scandalous. for example, the fac de lettres in aix has, as far as i'm concerned, no library to speak of; what they have is so difficult to access that it's as if it didn't exist. but then again...

i didn't go to a first-tier college in the states: SJSU - a high school with ashtrays. despite costing about 40 times more than a fac here, it was, if anything, worse.

harvard, stanford et al had better be good. a 4 year education there represents about 650 years income for a 2 salary minimum wage slave family in america!

[Pierre-Henri]

:D The end is near !

[Nanbawan]

Anyway, I shall precise that when I evoked bureaucracy, I was rather speaking about every fields of administration, not just education.

[Pierre-Henri]

Obviously. But our beloved mammoth is the one I face on a regular basis.

[Pierre-Henri]

Techno, disco, pop, what's your favourite music style ?

techno (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3bGdQz5Ol3M)

Disco (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwDwdeWxLg0)

pop (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8cTP9tvvqAE)

Take this, Americans ! That's european clip at its best !

[YankBastard]

Techno, disco, pop, what's your favourite music style ?

techno (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3bGdQz5Ol3M)

Disco (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwDwdeWxLg0)

pop (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8cTP9tvvqAE)

Take this, Americans ! That's european clip at its best !

Looks like something I saw on the last Eurovision.

[YankBastard]

Frenchies protest...time? Only in France. :D

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6222153.stm

The marchers called on governments and the UN to stop time's "mad race" and declare a moratorium on the future.