View Full Version : The France NSR Thread
Pierre-Henri
30 Mar 2006, 01:40 PM
Ok, I admit the stat is somewhat biased by the existing differences between the two systems. I shouldn't have compared a dying, get-me-out-of-here, highly despicable, collectivist-bolchevik-socialist-stalinian system with a working one.
However, can you imagine that France is the only country in the industrial world that spends more money for a secondary student than for a university student ? More money for a 14 years kid than for a future lawyer or surgeon ? Don't tell me this is not crazy.
On average, France is spending 6920 $ per year and per student, while USA is spending 20 000 $. And these are global, nationwide figures, which include the crappiest college in southern Alabama. Comparing our universities with the best american ones is like comparing Monaco and Kabul.
Check yourself : a few pics of my alma matter last week. I'm not kidding, this is how the things are.
http://marcbloch2006.skyblog.com/
Compare with :
i'm exaggerating (http://www.dartmouth.edu)
here too (http://www.yale.edu)
and here again (http://www.stanford.edu/)
I tell you, my friend, if one of the 200-250 best North-American universities or colleges has a seat for me, I'm a goner. And I won't even look back.
AllezParisAllezPSG
30 Mar 2006, 05:12 PM
i read the economist when ever i can (i highly recommend it) and i just subscribed to it... there was an article a few months back about education... they tested students from all over the world in match and i think a few other subjects... france ended up coming ahead of the united states actually... the best performing countries (and i think this has been the case for a very long time) were the nordic countries (more specifically sweden and finland)... but france, germany, the U.S., japan and a few others were just in the tier below... so while the gov't may be spending less on education (it does cost just a LITTLE less to go to college in france :D ), french students are not falling behind... at least in math they are not, one of the fundamental subjects...
nevertheless, watching the 20h journal on france 2 every night on my computer is getting to be depressing, especially the last few weeks... the french will have to realize and one point that they can't continue living the way they are... when they will realize that is the biggest question... this is why for now i (and many other french people here in NYC, canada or in the rest of NA) don't have any desire to live there... everyone of my friends has said that if things continue, they don't know if they'd like to come back... but one thing is sure, they all said that once they retire, there's only one place to go ---- france... i don't think any country will ever compare to the living standards of france IMO :) ... but some things will have to change...
i love these discussions...
YankBastard
30 Mar 2006, 08:43 PM
Wow, I knew you guy's med students need better training, but.... :p
Teddy Bear Clinic
A student of the Faculty of Medicine, left, simulates an ear operation on a rabbit toy brought by a young girl in Strasbourg, France, on March 30. Students of the Strasbourg Faculty of Medicine opened a "Teddy Bear Clinic" for the day, where children could bring their Teddy Bear and toy animals, to gently introduce the children to medical professions.
http://snsimages.tribune.com/media/photo/2006-03/22694666.jpg
Pierre-Henri
31 Mar 2006, 04:26 AM
I'm talking about university, secondary education is in better shape. The problem here relies in the way you look at stats. If you consider global stats, our secondary education is at the same level than US and our universities budgets are "only" 1/3 of American ones.
However, if you compare top tier vs top tier, we are sinking down. Shanghai ranking is an evidence of this : http://ed.sjtu.edu.cn/ranking.htm. And the Times rankings are even less kind with french universities.
BTW, did you notice that it's very difficult to find pics of french universities on the internet (while Canada, US and UK offer lavish virtual tours of their own) ? Simple answer : because we have the ugliest universities in the world, because we are ashamed of them, and because we are trying to hide the truth.
According to french official source, 10 000 french researchers are currently working in North-America. Many others in the UK, many in Germany too. And these are official, "diplomatic" figures. Brain drain is one of the major concerns in France today. Info used to be available on the official site science-odysse.org , but it seems to be down now.
Most of Phds in exile say they would like to come back, but they can't. No jobs, very poor working conditions, and wages 1/2, and sometimes 1/3 of the US or UK standards.
guignol
31 Mar 2006, 06:00 AM
i know you have valid points P-H. but you do know how much it costs to go to dartmouth, yale or stanford, don't you?
i applied to stanford and to colgate when i graduated from HS, but i just had to keep the acceptance letters as souvenirs. even with the financial aid i could scrape up, my folks just didn't have that kind of money.
i probably could have borrowed it, and you'll say i was a fool not to (although, having met plenty of stanford grads later in life, i thank my lucky stars i didn't) but it just looked too daunting.
sl7vk
31 Mar 2006, 10:20 AM
My sister went to Princeton, I went to Utah State. I make twice as much as her, and she's a lawyer now. Go figure?
I guess I should probably include my Junior year at the University of Nice faculte des lettres on my illustrious resume.
Pierre-Henri
31 Mar 2006, 11:14 AM
As I said, I was exaggerating. You can't compare France with the best private american universities, it's another planet.
Plus, I'm reacting more as a researcher than as a student (yes, i'm that old). Probably French university is cheaper than american one : low cost education, that's exactly what we have. Wal-Mart University.
I'd prefer plenty of public money, of course. I'd like to see our politicians understand that a country without research and education is a dead country. But they don't.
Once again :
http://marcbloch2006.skyblog.com/
Would you send your children there, even for a small tuition ?
Another article (in french) : http://www.r-lecole.freesurf.fr/sup/jourde.html
And Dr Jourde is not an anarchist, he is a renowned writer and researcher, from Grenoble university.
Another article : http://www.r-lecole.freesurf.fr/sup/Darras.htm
sl7vk
31 Mar 2006, 11:36 AM
Wow! March Bloch University looks as good as Nice did! Ah the nostalgia....
Nanbawan
31 Mar 2006, 11:52 AM
Wow, I knew you guy's med students need better training, but.... :p
I wonder if kids are happy when returning home with stiched teddy bear...
***
Back to the subject,
Rennes 1 (science) does not seem to do so bad, everytime I go back there, they're building new facilities. Well, must have something to do with being linked with the technology sector, communication and automotive. The big affair when I was there was the 'synergy' with industry notably the big PSA (Peugeot-Citroën) plant located in Rennes. The Beaulieu fac is not really inclined to conflict compared to the the Villejean 'fac des lettres' where same issues cause same problems with undergrad students apparently. Anyway, the battle did not take long since Citroën auto parts made their apparition in labs and of course, there are more internship opportunities for students. This said, it mainly concerns a specialised department. Well, folks studying physics are also likely to work on radio transmissions and electronics, and down the funnel for the telecom sector...
On the whole, as it is the case in the global trend, the guys dealing with non directly market valuable knowledge may have it harder despite the fact that they are the ones who sometimes bring unexpected solutions. Though, 'the market' isn't stupid, 'it' lets some of them survive...
Sachin
31 Mar 2006, 11:54 AM
I wonder if the teddy bears had to wait in long lines for treatment. :)
Pierre-Henri
31 Mar 2006, 11:55 AM
Oh damn, Sl7vk ! Aren't you supposed to work ?
Ok, ok, if the only thing you're expecting from french university is a touristic adventure (paint the walls, play with furniture, fight the riot police, flirt with french babes during public demonstrations and political happenings) I guess I can't go against that.
It may be an idea. We should organize touristic tours :
VISIT FRANCE !
REAL RIOTS !
REAL THUGS !
REAL VANDALISM !
REAL CRS, the world renowned riot police !
THIS COULD BE YOU :
http://www.news-photographer.com/france/france_013.jpg
(picture not contractual, actual beating may vary)
oh boy ! I'm a marketing genius ! I'm sure this kind of holiday tours would turn us into millionaires.
Nanbawan
31 Mar 2006, 12:14 PM
http://www.news-photographer.com/france/france_013.jpg
(picture not contractual, actual beating may vary)
Hmm, it's surely in France, there's a Perrier bottle flying !
sl7vk
31 Mar 2006, 12:24 PM
PH you've hit the nail on the head. It surely is harder to live it then to visit it. At the same time the education system here is not doing too good either. I couldn't believe the number of undergrads that were functionally illiterate when I taught at the University of Utah. It was frightening really.
PS. I did have encounters with the CRS while protesting eductaion reforms in 98! Cracking stuff! We stormed the Chamber of Commerce and the CRS came in for their beatdown. We all just sat on the ground and they didn't hit us or use gas. Gets the blood pumping really!
Pierre-Henri
31 Mar 2006, 12:30 PM
PS. I did have encounters with the CRS while protesting eductaion reforms in 98! Cracking stuff! We stormed the Chamber of Commerce and the CRS came in for their beatdown. We all just sat on the ground and they didn't hit us or use gas. Gets the blood pumping really!
CRS are the world best in their trade, man !
Illiterate undergrads here are also in increasing numbers. France is not better than US, we were just late. Same causes, same effects (mostly constructivist methods and the massive arrival of junk-culture).
Oh, and as a country lad, i don't live that kind of stuff either. I let the city people fight among themselves.
Sachin
31 Mar 2006, 02:38 PM
Chirac will sign the law (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12097360/)
Sachin
Nanbawan
01 Apr 2006, 08:45 PM
[non soccer related][non subject related] What with this buddy list frenzy ? A gnostic club ? I'm a rebel ! A loner, a wanderer ! Wait, is it possible to have girls ?! :p [/non soccer related][/non subject related]
Pierre-Henri
02 Apr 2006, 07:02 AM
I signed without knowing what it was. I trusted Ganu. Yes, I'm that naive.
Nanbawan, I guess we will soon receive a full set of unwanted stuff, for a total value of 750 000€, sent by Ganu-Telemarketing Inc.
He got us.
sl7vk
02 Apr 2006, 11:49 AM
I signed without knowing what it was. I trusted Ganu. Yes, I'm that naive.
Nanbawan, I guess we will soon receive a full set of unwanted stuff, for a total value of 750 000€, sent by Ganu-Telemarketing Inc.
He got us.
You too?
I got a set of Ginzsu knives from Ganu Corp today.
Damned English with their slick marketing ploys.
Jessica_Alba,pirate
02 Apr 2006, 11:57 AM
That Alizee is pretty cute...heard she had a baby though...what the hell!!!
ilv2
03 Apr 2006, 05:34 AM
That Alizee is pretty cute...heard she had a baby though...what the hell!!!
check out nadiya! :o
As for the ugliness of french universities, I have to agree - granted I haven't seen many, but Jussieu (Marie-Curie etc) has got to be the most functionalist/dull university i've ever seen.