The Department of Defense Thread

[thedefender23]

WTF is up with Man United's defense? With Ferdinand(a supposedly world-class CB) and Silvestre( a supposedly very good CB) in there, the defense should be much stronger than it is. I havent seen today's game yet( i'll study the film tomorrow) but from the highlights that i saw, Rio was absolutely CRUCIFIED by the Boro forwards. Hasselbaink absolutely bamboozled Ferdinand on the goal when he chipped it over Rio's head and then scored. Then Yakubu took on Ferdinand and beat him with a simple move, squared it back for Mendieta 2 score. I'm a staunch Rio Ferdinand supporter but this performance takes the cake. For somone with the wage bill he has, Rio really needs 2 step up his game. I know defense is a team thing but with the players United have in the back, this debacle should never have occurred. What is going on with United's defense and what steps should be taken to remedy the problems?

[MtP07]

1. Gaz and Heinze are out injured
2. Rio is in really bad form currently
3. Silvestre has never been that great

[dude8]

for as big and "strong" as ferdinand is, he sure gets outmuscled--a lot.

i don't see it with him. where is the bite, the aggression, the crunching tackle? he seems more worried about looking stylish than making the play at times. yeah, he's got fantastic skill, but where is the heart? ferdinand's body with smith's heart-now you've got something. wtf is wrong with him, or is this the way he's always been?

i want a stam-type cb, someone that strikes fear in the hearts of the opposition. any out there?

[thedefender23]

for as big and "strong" as ferdinand is, he sure gets outmuscled--a lot.

i don't see it with him. where is the bite, the aggression, the crunching tackle? he seems more worried about looking stylish than making the play at times. yeah, he's got fantastic skill, but where is the heart? ferdinand's body with smith's heart-now you've got something. wtf is wrong with him, or is this the way he's always been?

i want a stam-type cb, someone that strikes fear in the hearts of the opposition. any out there?
You're definitely right about Ferdinand. I'm a central defender myself and i love how stylishly he plays and how he is a "footballing" centerback. However, there is a time to be stylish and a time to get stuck in and Rio doesnt do that. How many times have u seen Rio absolutely clatter a forward or make a sliding tackle that wins the ball and takes the legs of the striker with it? The answer is never or very rarely. I mean for God's sake, how many cards has he gotten in his career? Rio should take a page out of Materrazzi's book. Now before you all flame me, let me explain myself. When forwards go out 2 play Inter, they know that they'll be in 4 a tough game because M.Materrazzi is there. I'm not saying Rio should destroy player's legs or foul continously, but he definitely needs 2 get an aggressive side. He has the footballing talent but the aggression needed 2 be a world-class defender in more than just title just isnt there

[Teso Dos Bichos]

1. Gaz and Heinze are out injured
2. Rio is in really bad form currently
3. Silvestre has never been that great

That just about covers everything. Another factor is the weak midfield putting the defense under even more pressure.

[Sinter]

Bring in the Gooch to partner with Rio. Silvestre is terrible. Maybe not Gooch as he probably isn't ready to play on a stage like Old Trafford, but a player like him, during the January transfer window.

[Achtung]

Bring in the Gooch to partner with Rio. Silvestre is terrible. Maybe not Gooch as he probably isn't ready to play on a stage like Old Trafford, but a player like him, during the January transfer window.

We've been talking about bringing in a big, bruising, Gooch-type CB for a while, but again it all comes back to the topic of Gl*zer and how much money is really available. Back in 2002, when we needed a new CB, we got Rio Ferdinand and paid through the nose for it, but it resulted in a Premiership trophy the following season. Does Gl*zer have the balls to spend to fill the holes in this squad?

[bigtoga]

You can't just blame the defense for today; the midfield was abysmal in protecting the middle of the field. Where the ******** was Alan Smith for half the game? Lollygagging - that's where. He was shite today.

[haven]

Bigtoga:

For once, I'll disagree with you. The first two goals were absolutely a result of defensive mistakes.

(1) VDS ********ed up.

(2) Ferdinand ********ed up.

Granted, our midfield was terrible, but when blunders like that lead to goals, you've got direct causation.

And, no, it's not merely that the other team has so many opportunities due to our disastrous midfield (though that's part of it). There are teams that play defensively all day long, give up tons of "hit and hope" balls ,but never concede one of them.

[dmike]

We've been talking about bringing in a big, bruising, Gooch-type CB for a while, but again it all comes back to the topic of Gl*zer and how much money is really available. Back in 2002, when we needed a new CB, we got Rio Ferdinand and paid through the nose for it, but it resulted in a Premiership trophy the following season. Does Gl*zer have the balls to spend to fill the holes in this squad?


Its not like Gooch is gonna cost a ton. Honestly if ManU wants him they can still get him for a bargan price. I don't think Gooch is gonna want to leave at the expense of PT though. Right now hes gonna be in a tight battle on the backline spots for WC 06.

[billyireland]

This is another reasonbwhy we should have bought a CB in the summer. If we had somebody like Andrade, we could afford to bench Rio for a few games to hopefully motivate him, but what are the odds on us starting Silvestre & Brown together?

[Achtung]

Its not like Gooch is gonna cost a ton. Honestly if ManU wants him they can still get him for a bargan price. I don't think Gooch is gonna want to leave at the expense of PT though. Right now hes gonna be in a tight battle on the backline spots for WC 06.

Bit shaky at the moment though. He'd be cheap no doubt, but hasn't yet proven himself consistently enough at a level that would make me feel comfortable. Yes, he did a good job containing Borgetti, but he needs to do that on a weekly basis to strikers of Borgetti's quality. A move to Holland, Germany, or a midtable Prem club could be in his cards if he plays well next summer.

[Mac_Howard]

We're paying the price for not bringing in a quality DM. Smith does not have the positional sense to play effectively there. Mendieta should never have been given the 15/20 yards in front of central defence either for his goal or the ball he played through to Hasselbaink for the second goal. Yes, both VDS and Ferdinand should have done much better but both attacks should have been stopped before they came to that. At the very least Mendieta should have been harried and not allowed the time he had (and indeed at many other times in this game).

In truth, we only have two quality midfielders - Keane and Scholes. The first is fading rapidly and the second can't play this deep and still create the chances only he can. And don't tell me there are no players available after Chelsea have taken their pick.

When we failed to get Ronaldinho we should have taken Mendieta, as I argued at the time, and anyone who saw him today can see why. When we couldn't get Essien or any other young, powerful midfielder this summer we should have taken Davids. Both were available at the those times.

But on both occasions complacency won the day, we either brought in players like Miller and Djemba-Djemba or did nothing, and we now find ourselves playing with a very average Fletcher and a converted striker with little idea of positional defensive midfield play.

We desperately need at least one quality CM even when Keane returns. We have to do something this January because this problem is not going away of its own accord.

Nevertheless, we lost this game because players we can normally rely on let us down. VDS should have saved the first goal and maybe even the second, Rio should have dealt with the second and prevented the shot and Richardson's foul was plain stupid. The fourth goal came when we wwere chasing the game at all costs.

But the defence really is being exposed unnecessarily.

[Achtung]

This is another reasonbwhy we should have bought a CB in the summer. If we had somebody like Andrade, we could afford to bench Rio for a few games to hopefully motivate him, but what are the odds on us starting Silvestre & Brown together?

Again, the big advantage of Chelsea's depth which I mentioned previously. If a player, any player, isn't performing, he can easily be benched for whatever top-class talent sits behind him. Rio instead is almost guaranteed to be a starter if healthy.

[JC7rox]

Rio instead is almost guaranteed to be a starter if healthy.

Sadly enough, these days, so is O'Shea, who should've closed down Mendieta on the first goal.

[littleman]

Let's talk about Chelsea, or rather, our impending match with them. Or the Lille match anyways. Are there any modifications you guys want to make to the team?

I really think it's a matter of form and chemistry.. the passing game is WAY off. Could it be that they've changed their training methods (thanks to Queiroz and his "we-must-play-to-win-1-0-LOLZ!!!" tactics)...? Either way the passing is horrible.

I think Smith is fully committing himself to learning the DM role. He shaved his head. For me, that's a sign of determination. (Weird logic? I guess...) Whether he makes it is another matter..

[Token]

Sadly enough, these days, so is O'Shea, who should've closed down Mendieta on the first goal.

Sky Sports commentators :eek: actually blamed Park Ji-Sung for not helping out the defense. But, I have to say, VDS was at fault for the first goal. :(

[JC7rox]

Sky Sports commentators :eek: actually blamed Park Ji-Sung for not helping out the defense. But, I have to say, VDS was at fault for the first goal. :(


Not if there was no shot to be saved. If O'Shea would have closed him down, he would have opted to pass the ball. It reminds me of last season against Milan. Carroll got all the shiat for their goal at OT, but if Scholes would have closed Seedorf down, it would not have happened. Anyway, the point is, O'Shea should have closed him down. He seems to be a lock to start with all our mass injuries. I'd rather have Bardsley and Richardson (even after the PK) starting ahead of O'Shea. I wouldn't even put O'Shea in the reserves. They look much too good to take him on their form.

Rio, like I said, needs to take his mind off his money and his money off his mind.

[Republic of Mancunia]

Let's talk about Chelsea, or rather, our impending match with them. Or the Lille match anyways. Are there any modifications you guys want to make to the team?

If this accurate then it looks like there will be changes:

http://uk.sports.yahoo.com/30102005/3/ferdinand-facing-euro-axe-boro-defeat.html

MIDDLESBROUGH, England (AFP) - Rio Ferdinand is in danger of being dropped for Manchester United's midweek Champions League trip to Lille following his personal horror show here at the Riverside Stadium.
Ferdinand could be one of several changes Sir Alex Ferguson makes to his side following a 4-1 defeat against Middlesborough one of United's worst in the Premier League.
The England international had a nightmare as Middlesborough ran riot to put their recent poor form behind them in spectacular fashion.
He almost gifted Gazika Mendieta a goal with some poor control on 16 minutes, was outfoxed by Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink for Boro's second and was then beaten by Yakubu for the home side's fourth.
Former West Ham and Leeds centre-back Ferdinand, who has already lost his place in Sven-Goran Eriksson's England side, was eventually hauled off close to the end of this one-sided encounter and faces a battle to keep his place in Ferguson's starting line-up for Wednesday's clash in France.


Now just how sweeping these changes will be I'm not so sure of after reading the following.

From the official site:

http://www.manutd.com/news/fullstory.sps?iNewsid=261943&itype=466&icategoryid=120

How big a challenge is Wednesday's game now?

"We want to qualify, obviously. We've always qualified from the group. We're still in a good position, don't get me wrong about that, but we can't afford the defensive frailties we've shown today. Therefore we'll play with a bit more caution on Wednesday, to make sure we don't give our opponents any more encouragement."

Sounds like he's gonna concentrate on getting the defence right, (which obviously needs some attention) and I interpret caution to mean another outing for the 4-5-1.

Oh, and while I'm here, Who or wtf is "the Gooch?" (mentioned earlier in this thread) :confused:

[dmike]

Oh, and while I'm here, Who or wtf is "the Gooch?" (mentioned earlier in this thread) :confused:

American defender who is emerging as one of our best right now. Still needs alot of work but in time he will be very good.

http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20051009/i/r333484010.jpg