Can we really expect us to be world class?

[GrodZilla]

I know i'm dissapointed right now, but this is something that I hve been thinking about for a while. I looked at our midfield today an thought. Hey, would any of these get into any of the sides that we aim to compete with?

I don't have to state how dissapointed I was with the result today, we had an awful game. But we also have to be realistic, sure we are Manchester United, we should beat Boro 8 times out of 10 IMHO. But did you look at the team we fielded today? We are injury hit, but what was on the pitch today was not a world-class line up. I'll compare our team to Milans and Juve's as they are plaiyng today and IMO the represent two of the stronger sides in the world. They are where we expect to be.



VDS: A quality keeper and one of our strongest cards.

Would probably be playing for Juve today since Buffon is out, but in genereal, both Dida and Buffon are better keepers.

Defence:

Man Utd
------------------------------------------
O'Shea - Silvestre - Rio - Bardsley

Juve
---------------------------------------------
Pessotto - Cannavarro - Thuram - Zambrotta

Milan
--------------------------------------
Serginho - Maldini - Nesta - Stam

I ask myself: Would any of our Defenders get into any of the starting line ups? I would have to say a certain NO. Rio in form should be competing with anyone, but he's not even close to it. Even as both teams play weak cards at left back I can't see anyone getting in.

Bardsley/O'Shea: Neither of them belong in a starting line up in a top team. Bardsley is young and doing well by his standards. But I was just looking at Milan - Juve, and he's surely no Zambrotta or Stam... O'Shea, well we all had high hopes for him, a pity how he has turned out.

Tweety/Rio: I seem to belong to the few who think that Tweety is an accomplished centre back, this season he has been our best defensive player. Rio is out of form, I don't know where his head is right now but he needs to sort himself out somehow. CB's should be oune of our strongest areas if you look at the players we have there, but the way Rio is playing he is a liabillity.

Midfield:

Man Utd
-------------------------------------------
Park - Smith - Scholes - Fletcher

Juve
-------------------------------------------
Nedved - Emerson - Viera - Camoranesi

Milan
-----------------------------------------
Seedorf - Pirlo - Gattuso - Kaka

Would anyone get in? I can say without a doubt, NO. Look at the names on their team sheets. That is world-class, straight through. I remember when we used to have the best midfield in the world. Not so anymore I think. this is the area where our shortcomings are made the most obvious.

Park: Would have to be the one counted most likely to get into the team, and that says a lot. 6 months ago most of us would never have even considered Park playing in one of the top clubs in Europe. He has done well, but he is not world-class, and I can't see him ever reaching the level of any of the players in the other teams.

Fletcher: He's young, he may improve, but I'm starting to doubt his temperament. He doesen't seem to have any kind of fire in him at all. He has good games, pretty steady performer. But again, not one who will lift Manchester out of this slump.

Smith: He's learning but as of this moment he is an average midfielder, he has spirit and fire but lacks in many areas. He may yet be great, now he is not.

Scholes: Used to be great, unless he's having a 2 year long bad patch of form I'd say that Paul is declining pretty fast. It hurts me to see him this way, I can't really say why he's playing the way he is. The abillity is there, we all know it. Maybe he just doesn't have his head in the game anymore.

Overall, our midfield is not one for a top club. It's one for a club hoping for a UEFA-Cup spot at the most. Compared to the top clubs in the world our midfield almost looks embarrasing. There just is not enough quality in there to win us anything right now. It's harsh but it is what I believe.

Forwards:

Man Utd
-----------------------------
Ruud - Rooney

Juve
--------------------
Ibrahimovic - Trezeguet

Milan
------------------------
Inzaghi - Gillardino

Without doubt our strongest area. Both Ruud and Rooney are world class and would have a chance of getting in to any team in the world. I can't find an attacking pairing out there that would withoubt doubt be better than ours.

I'd rate them as:
Ruud = Rooney = Ibrahimovic > Trezeguet = Gillardino > Inzaghi

Both Ruud and Rooney would have good chances of getting regular games but they are not THAT much better than any of the others, I'd put it down to form.

To be fair I'll give the Bench/Unavailable players their verdicts as well.

Defence:
Heinze: Would have a decent chance of getting in. A top-class player for a top-class club.

Neville: As much as I like Gary he's not one of the best right backs in the world and he would not get into those starting line ups.

Brown: Good and stabile back-up. But not a starter for a top club.

Kieran: I fancy him, in a couple of years he could be just the modern WB United need. Is still only 20 and as with many others, just not good enough right now.

Midfield:
Ronaldo: Could probably get into both line ups on form, today no. Can be magnificent one of our true hopes for glory. Still fluctuates too much though. But all in all a real gem.

Keane: So important for us, still past his best and would not get in.

Attack:
Saha: Great option when fit, still that's not that often. Belongs in a top club and enrichens an already strong attack.

We have also a lot of youngsters but it will take 2 or 3 years before we can hope for them to deliver world class football.

All in all, we have 3 or 4 players who would have a chance of breaking into one of the top sides in europe. We need 9-10 players of that quality to be able to compete at the level we expect us to.

The way i see it, we expect world class football of average(ok that's a bit harsh) material and it will not work. Especially since fighting spirit seems to be lacking in United overall.

[AmoebaCulture]

A world class team is a team that can win without the best players. For name value's sake, Real Madrid can be the world all-stars but they're not doing anything notable. It's what you make of it really. No need to show ... a complex.

[GrodZilla]

ah, yes.. partly, but that's one of the reasons i picked milan and Juve since they are both very disciplined teams that apart from having great squads also apply a very tactical approach to the game. and I also feel in the long run, the best team will win, real madrid have technically gifted players that lack the passion needed. So in my book, big name dos not always mean world class...

[Mac_Howard]

For me the problem is in midfield.

Add Heinze and Neville to the defence and I have no problems with that.

Ruud, Rooney and Saha are fine up front if Saha could remain fit.

But midfield is woeful. There are just two accomplished central midfield players and both are fading and there is no conceivable replacement in sight. Out wide we have a fading Giggs and an inexperienced and currently ineffective Ronaldo. Park I haven't seen enough of yet to judge but I'm not that impressed so far (didn't see the couple of games where you guys say he played well but against both Spurs and Boro he wasn't impressive).

Our backups throughout are not quality.

[elfergi]

A very quality, and well thought out post. I agree that the strongest points for Man Utd are VDS and Rooney/V. Nistelrooy. However, games are won in the midfield, and Utd are severely lacking this year (even without injuries). Hopefully, Smith will be an adequate replacement for Keane and Utd can get back on track next year, but I can't see Utd going very far in the Champions League this season. I hope they prove me wrong, though, 'cause I love seeing as many English teams in the final stages as possible.

Look at Arsenal and compare them to Utd this season. Both Midfields are not as strong as past years, and the poor results are a reflection. You can blame Arsenal's poor run of form on Henry being injured, but I believe it has more to do with Viera being sold. I would of loved to have seen Hleb and Viera together in the center for Arsenal, but fantasies rarely come true (like being able to see Keane and Ballack play together).

Man U will rebound though. Never lose trust in Fergy.

[JC7rox]

^WTF? ::confused::

[canzano55]

These desperate threads of despair would never be made had Chelsea not existed.

Now that they're around the rest of the league is merely in their shadow.

[The Potter]

These desperate threads of despair would never be made had Chelsea not existed.

Now that they're around the rest of the league is merely in their shadow.


Indeed, but it does make me wonder how bad the champions would be if it wasn't for Chelsea.

[JC7rox]

These desperate threads of despair (tee-hee, that made me laugh)would never be made had Chelsea not existed.

Now that they're around the rest of the league is merely in their shadow.

You mean Ambromovitch's Chelsea, right, cuz Chelsea's been around for the last hundred years or so. :rolleyes:

[littleman]

Indeed, but it does make me wonder how bad the champions would be if it wasn't for Chelsea.

Well, considering our injuries and how our impending purchases of Essien, Robben and etc were outpriced by a certain club... ... ... ...

[canzano55]

You mean Ambromovitch's Chelsea,I need to specify?

[JC7rox]

I need to specify?

Well, with the language that you chose to express yourself, yes, you needed to specify. You did not mention a purchase, you only said 'now that they're around.' Don't want to be a jerk about it. Honestly, some people do make it seem like Chelsea just appeared, no pun intended, out of the 'blue.'

P.S. Its also not like Chelsea were a bottom-dweller before the takeover. They were a fairly decent team. I always looked forward to the Chelsea fixtures, and I always respected their players and their quality.

[canzano55]

I always looked forward to the Chelsea fixtures, and I always respected their players and their quality.As did I, they were: "charming" to put it elegantly.

To the point though, instead of making contrasts with foreign leagues all we need do is analyze the current EPL situation and see how other teams have faired better than ManU; forget about Juve and Milan.

Chelsea is the "epitome" of world class when you take into account quality and form. So if they are "world class" (which they obviously are) then we can deduce that ManU is not world class when comparing both clubs and their overall strength. However, while Chelsea has upped the standards there has been an immediate reaction by clubs who are fighting to keep pace and improve their game so when they face Chelsea they are not so easily "contrasted"; Everton and Liverpool have managed to make an impact to a certain extent while other minnows have showed some valor (Wigan, Blackburn to name a few).

The level of game in England is blowing up and ManU are simply not able to keep up. This is because they are the same team from 3 years ago while the majority of other EPL clubs are growing in strength because clubs like Chelsea are raising the competition to incredible heights.

Now the bright side is that ManU has the resources to compete, but their overall strengths are simply overlooked when you look at the contenders; keeping the context of using the English league as a basis for evaluation.

[GrodZilla]

These desperate threads of despair would never be made had Chelsea not existed.

Now that they're around the rest of the league is merely in their shadow.

I don't really see it as a thread of despair. It is something that has been dawning on me for the last couple of years. Our aim has always been the Champions Leauge as well as the EPL. I chose NOT to compare us with Chelsea because Chelsea are unique in the Footballing world, they have resources not available to anyone else. I chose instead to compare us to other teams that we would like to call our equals. The fact that we cannot match Cheslea right now is a thing apart and in it self does not give that we are NOT world-class. But more so our inabillity to controll games against lesser teams in our leauge. The last two years I think that I could count the number of comfortable wins we have had on one hand.

We all have a feeling that United are, and have been for the last couple years, underperforming. But as time goes on and I at least have not seen any great and consistent improvement in our game. I start to question why is this?

The conclusion I come to is either: Our expectations of how United should perform does not match the level of abillity that we put on the pitch. Or we are in fact in a multiyear bad patch of form.

After trying to get to the bottom of it all, I took a look at the teams we have put on the pitch and asked myself, realistically, how well could we expect them to perform? No doubt about that some players are off form. Rio, Ronaldo, and I still have hopes about Scholes. We also have injuries to add to that.

We have the players that can win the games for us, on a good day, Rooney, Ronaldo can do it on their own, Ruud can create a goal out of nothing. They are amongst the best of the best, no question about it. But as eith most artists, sometimes they have an off day, or an off month, especially since they are still so young(Ruud excepted).

But as a unit, if you look at the team overall, midfield in particular, can we expect to dominate games the way we used to be. I don't think we can, it would be unfair to the people we put on the pitch because the do not have that abillity(yet or anymore).

On a good day we can beat anyone, but we cannot expect to beat everyone all the time with the quality we have. That's where i stand...

[RedFriday]

We seem to be overlooking the gravity of the situation. The flimsy empire that the Glazers are hoping to build is based on certain levels of achievement being attained. this is to compensate the huge borrowing they made to purchase the club. Now here is where I might need some help on the facts...

In order to repay the borrowing the Glazer's require Man Utd to achieve the following on a yearly basis:

Win one domestic cup (Carling or FA Cup) a season
Achieve Top 3 in premiership at least for guaranteed Champions League
To progress to knockout stage of Champions League each year.

If these are not achieved, payments will not be made, loans will be defaulted and then the club has to start looking to save money and that is when we start compromising the quality of players we bring in. Everyone said that the situation is not as bad as the Leeds fiasco a few seasons ago, but this was when you could see positive performances on the pitch. Now we are looking mid table at best at lacking any real inventiveness, talk of cups this season is unheard of. With the stiff goals the Glazers have borrowed against it wont take too long before the banks get twitchy.

Chop off the deadwood and add some real quality before it is too late.

Deadwood (IMHO) Fletcher, Scholes, Smith, Neville, Solskjaer (I know), Miller, Keane, O' Shea (Rio is heading towards this list fast)

Just getting Keane and Rio off the list free's up 10 million in wage bills a year!

The problem is definately bigger than adding Ballack to the team sheet!

[Crumpsalldave]

Good post. Too much shite in the team imo. The following needs shifting:

Fortune (too injury prone)
Saha (one more chance or shift him out, cus he showed some skill when he was fit)
Fletcher (who can be arsed waiting till hes 25? He's too skinny, runs like a girl, has no vision, no passing ability - apart from simples square balls, and lacks intimidation, summed up, he's a shy Scottish boy)
Scholes (way past his best, retiring from Engerland, was in essence supposed to raise his domestic game, in fact he's now very much worse)
O'Shea ( Poor. Started brilliantly, but he looks more ungainly now, has no pace, is to soft and lacks agression, has no heading ability and his passing constanly puts us on the back foot)
G Neville (another 30+ player who I've never really liked, hes Mr reliable they say, I just think his gobby little man)
Bellion (pathethic buy from SAF, arrived at 7 stone in weight, can't get in West Ham team)
Silvestre (No steal at centre of defence, tends to knock cross pitch balls to much, however has pace, 50/50 whether stays
Bardsley (similar to G Neville in he has grit, but will never have pure ability, still a prospect imo)
Smith(if he was bought as a midfielder then sell him, otherwise I think he would be suited up-front menacing CB's)
Keane (Past it-simple really, SAF has altered the team to accomodate him? Sorry but WTF?
Ruud( Cash in while we still can, and bring in Torres -pace up-front is needed, a younger Fergie would have seen this and got 25 big ones for him, this constant playing it into his feet is all well and good, but most teams just double up on him, so then it goes back to Scholes who then plays it to Smith to Scholes to Ruud to Scholes ad nauseum)

The only current ones I'd keep are:

Ronaldo
Rooney
VDS (Begin looking for a young German or Italian or something)
Keiran R (could develop into a good attacking LB)
Heinze (one of the better buys)
Rio (bad patch but most natural defender in the world)

Really we need a brand new midfield, and another winger, and possibly another CB (Ledley King would add some intimidation to our quiet defence) Rio and Ledley would be ideal imo.

[GrodZilla]

I'd say in general that is to harsh and undoable, only one team can have a squad of World Class players and we all know who they are. You need experience as well as potential in a squad. And in a dream scenario there are loads of players I'd like to see here but that's not going to happend, we need to reinforce our squad in 2 or 3 places and we will be up there again. I'm sure we will get back up, all i am sayin is that one should not expect too much just because we are Man U, you have to look at what you put on the pitch as well. Just a name does not earn you the right to success..

[Teso Dos Bichos]

Some of these posts are hilarious, especially from Crumpsalldave. Of course there are problems and we need a clear-out, but some of the comments being made are stupidity in itself. We need another top quality central defender, at least one defensive midfielder, another central midfielder and a striker. Obviously the deadwood should be cleared out and perhaps a few squad players brought in, but people are over-reacting in what they are saying.

[footykid]

The problem is the blue away jersey , You would have figured ManU would have learned Arsenal's lesson :rolleyes:

On a seriouse note, some of these post are just frakin funny. Every team goes through a period or competive rebuilding, its just come at a very bad time for Arsenal and ManU with the emergance of Chelsea. If Chelsea wasn't around last year even with Both a sub-par ManU & Arsenal we would have been on top by a large magin. Both squads need to rebuild and these things take time. Shouts for "Sack the Managment" and clear everyone out, are alittle reactionary don't you think?

[GrodZilla]

The problem is the blue away jersey , You would have figured ManU would have learned Arsenal's lesson :rolleyes:

On a seriouse note, some of these post are just frakin funny. Every team goes through a period or competive rebuilding, its just come at a very bad time for Arsenal and ManU with the emergance of Chelsea. If Chelsea wasn't around last year even with Both a sub-par ManU & Arsenal we would have been on top by a large magin. Both squads need to rebuild and these things take time. Shouts for "Sack the Managment" and clear everyone out, are alittle reactionary don't you think?


I'm not talking about a clear out, just a note that maybe we should not expect to much until we have had a chance to get people back form injury, to form, or to develop further because i stand by my original point that the team we fielded yesterday was not good enough by Man U standards(they still should have performed better though.)