1899 Hoffenheim Thread [R]

[footyfan1]

All clubs start somewhere, but when this club is thrown in to a pool of popular sides who built their support a long, long time ago, it'll be a very weird scenario.

Only in the minds of those who are looking for some reason to tear them down......

[panicfc]

And I really wish some of you would remember that even your most "tradition-rich" clubs all had to start somewhere.......

Exactly. Traditions weren't traditions when they started.

[Schwalker]

These "new" clubs are not a recent thing...My granddad used to lament on how FC Köln was an "artificially created post-war excuse for a club".

But then he hated all clubs that wasn´t around when he was a kid..:D

[panicfc]

These "new" clubs are not a recent thing...My granddad used to lament on how FC Köln was an "artificially created post-war excuse for a club".

But then he hated all clubs that wasn´t around when he was a kid..:D

That's pretty funny stuff.

[MicFW]

But Köln, a club rather similar in size to Schalke or Dortmund does..?

Fräulein is correct, I didn't claim that Köln is an underdog.
If you want to know how I see the club, I might add that Köln fans are hardly gloryhunters. Since I started supporting the FC some 15 years ago (oh dear, I'm getting old :eek:), we haven't won anything. Last time we played in the UEFA Cup I was not even following football. What attracts me is the city, the atmosphere surrounding the club, the Rhineland "Et kütt wie et kütt" mentality, the memory of former heroes like Toni Poster, the potato pancakes you get in the stadium, etc. etc. Hard to describe, but very real anyway. Of course we want to do better than at the moment, but football is not only about such profane things as winning games. ;)

[MicFW]

Only in the minds of those who are looking for some reason to tear them down......

Every club has to start somewhere, but under normal circumstances a tiny village like Hoffenheim would never produce a Bundesliga team. That's a fact and has got nothing to do with any town-country bias on my part.

You might point towards Unterhaching. Probably they even had a patron of sorts, but at least they didn't spend several millions on players, out of place infrastructure and, top of all, a ludicrous 30.000 seater arena somewhere in the boonies. No other team recently promoted from the Regionalliga could possibly spend so much money. They are the very opposite of an underdog because they have a cash cow.

Fair play to Hopp, he's doing something for his region. You might even be correct in assuming that the club will eventually attract a following.

[footyfan1]

Every club has to start somewhere, but under normal circumstances a tiny village like Hoffenheim would never produce a Bundesliga team. That's a fact and has got nothing to do with any town-country bias on my part.

Is there a rule that states a Bundesliga team has to come from a city with certain population level?

If so, I wasn't made aware of it.



You might point towards Unterhaching. Probably they even had a patron of sorts, but at least they didn't spend several millions on players, out of place infrastructure and, top of all, a ludicrous 30.000 seater arena somewhere in the boonies.

No, I would not have pointed at Unterhaching. That's basically a rich suburb of Munich. They were a third Munich team.

And if they had that money, they would have spent it.

Oh, and that stadium "somewhere in the boonies??" It will be right off Autobahn 6, which runs from the Mannheim area clear through Heilbronn (just a short drive to Stuttgart on the A81), Franken (Crailsheim and other towns such as Aalen and Schwabish Hall are nearby), Nuernberg and the Bavarian Oberpfalz to the Czech Border. Just about ten minutes up the autobahn lies the Hockenheim Ring. Another ten from there is the Heidelberg/Mannheim area. Going back the other way about ten to fifteen minutes minutes lies Heilbronn. The stadium will be in Sinsheim, a place that already attracts thousands of people with their Air, Auto and Technik Museum.

I'd hardly say that stadium is going to be "in the boonies." You must not know much about that area. It will be as much "in the boonies" as the Allianz Arena is sitting off the A9 just north of Munich.

You ever been to the Allianz Arena? If you have, you'll know there's not much out near it either besides the autobahn.

You can call Hopp's idea "ludicrous" if you like. That is your right. I don't think they'll ever fill that stadium with their own fans myself. But I think they'll get more fans than some of you expect.

Plus, Hopp has the money to build the stadium, so who are you or who the hell is anyone else to say what he can, should, or should not do with his money?

And as Hopp himself said, they are hosting clubs with huge followings like 1. FC Koln 1860 and Gladbach. They hope to host clubs like Bayern, Borussia Dortmund, Schalke, Frankfurt and Werder Bremen in the near future.

What the hell makes that stadium so "ludicrous?" Even if they attract more visiting fans, that's still money in their pockets. I think it will be a fantastic investment.


No other team recently promoted from the Regionalliga could possibly spend so much money. They are the very opposite of an underdog because they have a cash cow.

So what? They have to be an "underdog" to be suitable for someone to support?

Yeah, they have the advantage of Hopp's money. But Hopp, although he could, isn't doing what Abramowich did at Chelski. They are spending within reason.



Fair play to Hopp, he's doing something for his region. You might even be correct in assuming that the club will eventually attract a following.

If it's fair play to him, why are you writing as if he's somehow doing something "wrong?"

[MicFW]

I'll drop the remark about the stadium being "in the boonies". You've made it quite clear how well located it will be in terms of attracting as many people as possible.

I'm trying to make the point that Hoffenheim's status as contender for promotion (and probably the higher spheres of the Bundesliga in the near future) is "unnatural". Unnatural only in so far as they are controlled by a millionaire who buys them what other clubs have to earn in the first place. My objection to this practice is fundamental. I would not want my own club being owned by some individual even if he poured millions of Euros into it. Call that irrational if you please, but let's not argue about that, because there's no accounting for taste. Many many people won't object to clubs being owned by businessmen, after all it's common practice in other countries.

Hopp is perfectly entitled to do what he does. Hoffenheim are entitled to take use of his money. It is neither illegal nor illegitimate. For the simple reason given above I just happen not to like them.

[footyfan1]

I'll drop the remark about the stadium being "in the boonies". You've made it quite clear how well located it will be in terms of attracting as many people as possible.

I'm trying to make the point that Hoffenheim's status as contender for promotion (and probably the higher spheres of the Bundesliga in the near future) is "unnatural". Unnatural only in so far as they are controlled by a millionaire who buys them what other clubs have to earn in the first place. My objection to this practice is fundamental. I would not want my own club being owned by some individual even if he poured millions of Euros into it. Call that irrational if you please, but let's not argue about that, because there's no accounting for taste. Many many people won't object to clubs being owned by businessmen, after all it's common practice in other countries.

Hopp is perfectly entitled to do what he does. Hoffenheim are entitled to take use of his money. It is neither illegal nor illegitimate. For the simple reason given above I just happen not to like them.


For those reasons you don't like them. Perfectly fine.

However, in today's football, what Hopp is doing is perfectly "natural." This isn't the early 1900s anymore.

Clubs like your own and mine have shown that you indeed can have lots of money, but if you don't know what you're doing with it, you can still fail.

As a matter of fact, one of the major players who built my club into a financial powerhouse and then led it down the road to financial ruin is running your club.......

Heck man, even Chelsea didn't win right away.

Until these guys came along, you guys bought more than anyone in the 2. Liga. You were the ones everyone was crying about and I defended you guys just the same.

What's funny is that you complain about Hopp's money and yet according to Transfermarkt.de, you guys, Mainz and Gladbach all have more monetary worth on your teams than Hoffenheim does........

Sure, it's your right not to like Hoffenheim for how they got where they are. But in terms of spending money, the way I see it, your complaining about Hoffenheim is a lot like the pot calling the kettle black........

But not really because you "earned" your money in football, right??

[panicfc]

Have to agree with Footy again on this. Its about the money, but its not about the money. Hopp has hired good people, and I wouldn't bet against his success- but the success is through hiring good people to spend his money wisely.

[MicFW]

For those reasons you don't like them. Perfectly fine.

However, in today's football, what Hopp is doing is perfectly "natural." This isn't the early 1900s anymore.

Clubs like your own and mine have shown that you indeed can have lots of money, but if you don't know what you're doing with it, you can still fail.

As a matter of fact, one of the major players who built my club into a financial powerhouse and then led it down the road to financial ruin is running your club.......

Heck man, even Chelsea didn't win right away.

Until these guys came along, you guys bought more than anyone in the 2. Liga. You were the ones everyone was crying about and I defended you guys just the same.

What's funny is that you complain about Hopp's money and yet according to Transfermarkt.de, you guys, Mainz and Gladbach all have more monetary worth on your teams than Hoffenheim does........

Sure, it's your right not to like Hoffenheim for how they got where they are. But in terms of spending money, the way I see it, your complaining about Hoffenheim is a lot like the pot calling the kettle black........

But not really because you "earned" your money in football, right??

I actually agree with almost everything in your last post. The one exception is your view that what Hopp does is "natural". You are absolutely correct if your judgment is based on international examples. I'm quite aware that the situation is different in other countries and that most top clubs in England are owned by someone. It might also become natural in Germany one day, but at the moment it's clearly an exception. Maybe Hoffenheim proves to be the vanguard, but that would be a development I'm not looking forward to.

If clubs recently relegated from the Bundesliga have more monetary worth on their teams than a team recently promoted from the Regionalliga, that's what I would call perfectly normal. Hoffenheim comes mightily close to Mainz and Köln in their first season in professional football.

[footyfan1]

I actually agree with almost everything in your last post. The one exception is your view that what Hopp does is "natural". You are absolutely correct if your judgment is based on international examples. I'm quite aware that the situation is different in other countries and that most top clubs in England are owned by someone. It might also become natural in Germany one day, but at the moment it's clearly an exception. Maybe Hoffenheim proves to be the vanguard, but that would be a development I'm not looking forward to.

Yes, you are correct. I am looking at football as a whole. But with the huge "sponsorship" deals (Schalke & Gazprom for example) being made and some, such as Hannover's Martin Kind calling for the end of "50+1" how long do you think the money men will be kept out of German football???

Believe me, I'm with you. I don't want to see it either, but it is looming over us and I don't think I'm going to give up the German game because of it. How about you?


If clubs recently relegated from the Bundesliga have more monetary worth on their teams than a team recently promoted from the Regionalliga, that's what I would call perfectly normal. Hoffenheim comes mightily close to Mainz and Köln in their first season in professional football.

Of course. The point I'm trying to make is that Hopp has not gone "overboard."

Trust me, the only reason I am not railing against Hoffenheim is because they are sticking to a plan. They haven't gone out and raided top rosters. Sure, they've bought players that most other 2. Liga teams can't afford. That is without question.

But sometimes you write as if the other clubs wouldn't do it even if they had the money to. They would. I'm not at all saying Hoffenheim doesn't have an advantage over some others, I know they do. That advantage doesn't make me hate them.

I'm actually impressed that they are accomplishing what they are without having spent more.

[footyfan1]

Have to agree with Footy again on this. Its about the money, but its not about the money. Hopp has hired good people, and I wouldn't bet against his success- but the success is through hiring good people to spend his money wisely.


Exactly! I wish I saw this post before I just made my last one.

[Schwalker]

Fräulein is correct, I didn't claim that Köln is an underdog.
If you want to know how I see the club, I might add that Köln fans are hardly gloryhunters. Since I started supporting the FC some 15 years ago (oh dear, I'm getting old :eek:), we haven't won anything. Last time we played in the UEFA Cup I was not even following football. What attracts me is the city, the atmosphere surrounding the club, the Rhineland "Et kütt wie et kütt" mentality, the memory of former heroes like Toni Poster, the potato pancakes you get in the stadium, etc. etc. Hard to describe, but very real anyway. Of course we want to do better than at the moment, but football is not only about such profane things as winning games. ;)

Cheers for the answer...and as I suspected you (and many other Köln fans no doubt) have a certain assurity about your club which I guess comes from knowing that your club have a certain standing whatever happens, an assurity missing among fans of clubs that are punching above their weight..

[Borussia]

I would not want my own club being owned by some individual even if he poured millions of Euros into it. Call that irrational if you please, but let's not argue about that, because there's no accounting for taste.



Exactly my opinion!

[footyfan1]

Then I guess you guys will turn away from German football in the near future. Because they are eventually going to drop "50+1" and allow ownership of clubs.

I don't WANT to see it myself, but it is coming. What will you "traditionalists" do then?? Leave the game?? Turn your backs on your clubs when someone or some group buys it out??

What?

Because it is coming. It is nearly inevitable.

Give Hopp some credit. He hasn't gone and bought world stars (yet) even though he pretty much can. They have not spent crazy money.

Those days are coming. And those are the days I don't want to see.

Because fans like us may be shut out of the game........ :(

[panicfc]

Yep. Money is coming to the Bundesliga. Hold your hats and your wallets.

I wonder how much Hopp is charging for tickets now?

[Hobo]

Yep. Money is coming to the Bundesliga. Hold your hats and your wallets.

I wonder how much Hopp is charging for tickets now?

http://www.tsg-hoffenheim.de/1preiseDauerkarten.php
Single tickets range from 4 € - 23,50 € and season tickets range from 112,50 € - 352,50 €

[Schwalker]

Then I guess you guys will turn away from German football in the near future. Because they are eventually going to drop "50+1" and allow ownership of clubs.

I don't WANT to see it myself, but it is coming. What will you "traditionalists" do then?? Leave the game?? Turn your backs on your clubs when someone or some group buys it out??

What?

Because it is coming. It is nearly inevitable.

Give Hopp some credit. He hasn't gone and bought world stars (yet) even though he pretty much can. They have not spent crazy money.

Those days are coming. And those are the days I don't want to see.

Because fans like us may be shut out of the game........ :(



Hmm, let us not forget that clubs like Wolfsburg and Bayer Leverkusen have been with us for decades without the world coming to an end.
These advocates of abolishing the 50+1 rule like Kind tend to avoid answering why their own clubs would benefit, most likely these "new" investors would flock around the already established clubs and just cement their current status as we just got 6-8 clubs big enough to be attractive for money reasons.
Personally I can´see it happen in the bigger clubs, to many current members that must accept loosing control of their clubs.
But no doubt the discussion will continue for years...because just abolishing the rule will not change anything unless the clubs members agree to hand over the club.

It´s odd but allying ourselves (Schalke) with Gazprom might be our best deal ever..Because they are not allowed to own more than a single club within the Uefa-framework and Zenith is their main priority while being "Big&Bad" enough to discourage predators...

[panicfc]

Really we should start a new thread, but I think Germany is more attractive than England for investors.

1) BIGGEST ECONOMY IN EUROPE!
2) highest attendances
3) cheapest tickets
4) Room for growth in TV, merchandise and marketing
5) Growth in concession sales by modifying delivery of products
6) 80,000,000+ population
7) Big cities with under valued clubs: Dusseldorf, Köln, Essen, and I'm sure I'm missing a few.

if I was a mega-wealthy, I'd be buying Köln. If I was modestly wealthy, I'd look at Dusseldorf or Essen.