1899 Hoffenheim Thread [R]

[Lionhead]

...they wouldn´t have their patron any more and virtually no fans. They´d be bankrupt within a short time because 3000 fans isn´t even enough to keep you alive in the third division. Hoffenheim is an artificial construct that will fade to exist as soon as Hopp isn´t around anymore.

Duisburg for example has a traditional fanbase that enables them to exist on their own. Thats what tradition stands for and you can´t buy it, you can only try to build it over the decades.

I couldn't agree more. Thanks for making this point. That's exactly what BL doesn't need. Another big money Wolfsburg, but this time in a little village without a home grown fanbase. What's next?

[footyfan1]

I couldn't agree more. Thanks for making this point. That's exactly what BL doesn't need. Another big money Wolfsburg, but this time in a little village without a home grown fanbase. What's next?

Perhaps a Russian billionaire sponsoring one of the Munich clubs?

Boo-hoo hoo, where is my tradition going??


Geez......
:rolleyes:

[Borussia]

I don't think he ever expected there would be so many "haters" who think there is only one way to do anything.......

I don't think you can call all criticizers of Hoffenheim "haters"! It's just about making fans of other clubs angry when you announce to invest in German youth players from the region ... and then suddenly sign lots of foreign players for more than € 20 million! :rolleyes:

I don't like the club, but I definitely don't hate it! Hopp can invest € 50 million next season - nevertheless, Hoffenheim will never be taken seriously by the most BL fans!


Have a nice day.

[Borussia]

Perhaps a Russian billionaire sponsoring one of the Munich clubs?


:D

That was a good counter-attack! ;)

[BM-Hattrick]

Don't think anyone disputes that fact. Exactly why Mr. Hopp said "Our tradition is the future."

The man wants to leave a legacy for his region and he's doing that.

I don't think he ever expected there would be so many "haters" who think there is only one way to do anything.......

I don´t hate Hoffenheim and I have nothing against their plans to build a "real" fanbase because thats the way it should be.
I just can´t see it happening because there are so many other clubs with an active supporter base around there. (KSC perhaps being the closest)

[footyfan1]

I don´t hate Hoffenheim and I have nothing against their plans to build a "real" fanbase because thats the way it should be.
I just can´t see it happening because there are so many other clubs with an active supporter base around there. (KSC perhaps being the closest)

I've lived in that area before. I lived in Heidelberg. I know how many other clubs have supporters there. And I do believe Stuttgart is closer to Hoffenheim than Karlsruhe. But that area has many fans who support Bayern, Dortmund, Bremen, Stuttgart, KSC and Kaiserslautern.

And one of the major reasons those people support so many different teams is because that area never had a successful team of its own. Not since the Mannheim teams went under.

I think more people in that area will support Hoffenheim than many of you think.

No, they won't become a Bayern or Dortmund, but I think they could surpass Leverkusen, Wolfsburg and a couple of other clubs.

If they don't fail at the 1. Liga level. I think we can't assume they will succeed right off the bat.

[Lionhead]

Perhaps a Russian billionaire sponsoring one of the Munich clubs?

Boo-hoo hoo, where is my tradition going??

footyfan1, we all know what you think about fans and the importance of fan opinion. Do you honestly think it adds value to have a BL team with thin fanbase that admires the spending qualities of their sponsors without having to contribute anything else? The likes of Hannover, Bielefeld or Cottbus will hardly look forward to the games involved.

[Borussia]

I've just found an article in English dedicated to Hoffenheim:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,554097,00.html


Ciao.

[Projekt4]

If Hopp can unite a significant fanbase in that area and share the pleasure of Bundesliga football with them then it'll be ok from my perspective. Before that happens, he's just a billionaire who perhaps should have bought a big yacht rather than taking top league professional football away from a club with a big passionate following and granting it to himself and a bunch of other villagers.

He also promises to deliver on youth football. He says he'd love to see a Hoffenheim player in Germany's WC 2010 squad. If he can do that I might be appeased, too, but ultimately his top youth talents will probably be people who could have developed elsewhere just as well.

[footyfan1]

footyfan1, we all know what you think about fans and the importance of fan opinion. Do you honestly think it adds value to have a BL team with thin fanbase that admires the spending qualities of their sponsors without having to contribute anything else? The likes of Hannover, Bielefeld or Cottbus will hardly look forward to the games involved.

I think a team/club with ambition and the means to try has the right to try whether they meet your "tradition" standards or not.

Money doesn't score goals man. Clubs like yours and mine have proven time and time again that you can fail with money.

Money isn't a deciding factor unless you have someone who knows what to do with it.

Yes, Hoffenheim is the creation of a man with money. But he has vision too. And if he wants to try to break into the realm of the top leagues, who are you or anyone else to deny him that right?

["Eisenfuß" Eilts]

Yes, Hoffenheim is the creation of a man with money. But he has vision too. And if he wants to try to break into the realm of the top leagues, who are you or anyone else to deny him that right?

He is a business man, who fullfills the dream
of every village footballer: Bringing your club to the top.
He is pasionate for football and knows, that you
need good experts: The people around him
have the needed vision in football.

Rangnick is a coach with CL experience and he proved,
that he can build up teams (Ulm). Bernhard Peters was
Klinsmanns favorite for the manager of sports job
at the German NT and he is famous for improving a sport
by bringing elements of other sports into it.

It will be interesting to see, who they will sign,
the influences on the team and what
they can reach next year in the BL.

[Lionhead]

Money doesn't score goals man. Clubs like yours and mine have proven time and time again that you can fail with money.

Money isn't a deciding factor unless you have someone who knows what to do with it.

Yes, Hoffenheim is the creation of a man with money. But he has vision too. And if he wants to try to break into the realm of the top leagues, who are you or anyone else to deny him that right?

You are right. Nobody can deny him the right to do so and he has the cash to do so. They may win BL and CL, but there would always be the shadow of Hopp behind the trophies. The man who pumped millions into his hobby and -surprise - was very successful in it.

It doesn't always happen. Does anybody remember FC Wimbledon?

[footyfan1]

You are right. Nobody can deny him the right to do so and he has the cash to do so. They may win BL and CL, but there would always be the shadow of Hopp behind the trophies. The man who pumped millions into his hobby and -surprise - was very successful in it.

It doesn't always happen. Does anybody remember FC Wimbledon?


That's exactly the point. They may not win shit. That's the beauty of football.

Remember, even Chelsea didn't start winning right when Abramovich started spending.

They didn't win until they got a competent coach on the bench.

The other thing is that "tradition" always has to start somewhere. It just irritates me to no end when I see people hating on a club because they don't have any "tradition."

Every one of our clubs had to start somewhere. What does it matter if they started 100 years ago or now?? That tradition was built. Give Hoffenheim the same chance.

People here always harp about the past.

30 years ago there was no Microsoft. Do you think that matters to us now??

[BM-Hattrick]

It is clear that tradition has to start somewhere but normally it starts with a lot of hard work and with time and good management there will be success and, as a result of this success, money which can be invested in better players/wages/stadion.
I think that most people have a problem with the fact that Hoffenheim as a club started with all the money that they could dream of while other clubs don´t have a rich "uncle".
Most people think of something like this as a normal development for a club: years of hard work and good management --->success on the field (which leads to)---> Money
With Hoffenheim it was more like this: an old man with a lot of money (wants to buy)---> success on the field
I think no one would have had anything against Hoffenheim if they had managed that climb up from Kreisliga to Bundesliga on their own.
In the end only the future will tell if they get credit for their potential success on the field and if they can build a bigger fanbase.
Wolfsburg for example doesn´t get any respect from the majority of the fans and they are in their 10th consequent year in the Bundesliga.

[footyfan1]

It is clear that tradition has to start somewhere but normally it starts with a lot of hard work and with time and good management there will be success and, as a result of this success, money which can be invested in better players/wages/stadion.

And because Hoffenheim has Hopp, no hard work and good management went into it?? Is that what you are saying??

Again, if you want examples of "traditional clubs" who had money and threw it all away, look no further than Kaiserslautern, Koln, Dortmund, etc.

Money alone does not guarantee success.


I think that most people have a problem with the fact that Hoffenheim as a club started with all the money that they could dream of while other clubs don´t have a rich "uncle".

So people are jealous is what you are saying?? If so, they need to just get over it.


Most people think of something like this as a normal development for a club: years of hard work and good management --->success on the field (which leads to)---> Money

With Hoffenheim it was more like this: an old man with a lot of money (wants to buy)---> success on the field

And where is it written that your first example is the only "right" way to do it??


I think no one would have had anything against Hoffenheim if they had managed that climb up from Kreisliga to Bundesliga on their own.

Like SSV Ulm. Nice story, but where did it get them?? BTW, did you ever wonder why Hopp hired Rangnick for this job and not some other "huge" name??

Because Rangnick has done this before......



In the end only the future will tell if they get credit for their potential success on the field and if they can build a bigger fanbase.

Exactly. However, they shouldn't be denied that chance or made fun of because they have an assist from a benefactor.

Where would some "traditional" clubs be today without major sponors???


Wolfsburg for example doesn´t get any respect from the majority of the fans and they are in their 10th consequent year in the Bundesliga.

And they are in the UEFA Cup. Do you really think they care about not getting "respect" from the "majority" of fans??

Pretty soon, the results they get will earn respect for them.

"Fans" of other clubs will continue to be jealous.

Clubs don't get more "traditional" than FC Bayern Muenchen, but people still complain that their advantage comes from money.

And you'll say they "earned" their money in football. But if you think back, they had what many people felt was an unfair advantage when they moved into the Olympiastadion. What many forget is that Bayern's first financial advantage didn't come from any great football scheme, it came from that stadium. Adidas followed and so on and so forth.

It wasn't one man giving them an advantage, but really, what was so different?

And today, if someone other than Bayern wins the title, the question is not how did that other team do so well, the question is always, "What's wrong with Bayern?"

They started with what others always perceived to be an unfair advantage.

How quickly that is forgotten.........

[BM-Hattrick]

Clubs don't get more "traditional" than FC Bayern Muenchen, but people still complain that their advantage comes from money.

And you'll say they "earned" their money in football. But if you think back, they had what many people felt was an unfair advantage when they moved into the Olympiastadion. What many forget is that Bayern's first financial advantage didn't come from any great football scheme, it came from that stadium. Adidas followed and so on and so forth.

It wasn't one man giving them an advantage, but really, what was so different?

And today, if someone other than Bayern wins the title, the question is not how did that other team do so well, the question is always, "What's wrong with Bayern?"

They started with what others always perceived to be an unfair advantage.

How quickly that is forgotten.........

Bayern really is a bad example for your argumentation, one thing that is also quickly forgotten, to say it with your words, is the fact that Bayern started with a disadvantage. They weren´t allowed to participate in the Bundesliga as it was founded, they had to make their way out of the Regionalliga on their own. Another thing that people nowadays aren´t aware of is the fact that Bayern was a much smaller club by that time.
TSV 1860 München was by all means the bigger club, they were more successful, had much more fans and also more money, Bayern were only number 2 in munich. This only changed through success on the field, from 69-74 they were either champion or vice champion. And from 74-76 they won the progenitor of the CL three times in a row. From that point on they were the bigger club, but the money came after the success on the field.
And you can´t blame them for the Olympic Games in Munich, the stadium was there so they used it. Without all the titles that they had won by that time they wouldn´t have been able to take advantage of that big stadium.
But that´s all off topic anyway.

As I said, time will tell if the Hoffenheim-Project will be successful or not.
You just asked why there are so many people who have reservations against Hoffenheim and I tried to point out some of the more obvoius reasons for that.

[Borussia]

@ Keith

Shall I tell you the main reason why I don't think that the "Bundesliga needs more Hoffenheims" (quotation from Ralf Rangnick)? It's because I don't like to see the clubs being owned/sponsored by private persons/billionaires who regard them as their "personal toy"! Hopp & Hoffenheim could become a model for foreign investors a la Glazer, Abramovitch etc. ... so we can only pray that the 50+1 rule won't be changed in the future!

I simply don't want to see American & English conditions in the Bundesliga! Private owners, who compete against each other like virtual soccer managers on computers and consider this sport just as a big business & fun, are the death of football/soccer in my eyes! :rolleyes:


Gute N8

[panicfc]

Guys, great discussion. Excellent work all around.

[sportfriend]

@ Keith

Shall I tell you the main reason why I don't think that the "Bundesliga needs more Hoffenheims" (quotation from Ralf Rangnick)? It's because I don't like to see the clubs being owned/sponsored by private persons/billionaires who regard them as their "personal toy"! Hopp & Hoffenheim could become a model for foreign investors a la Glazer, Abramovitch etc. ... so we can only pray that the 50+1 rule won't be changed in the future!

I simply don't want to see American & English conditions in the Bundesliga! Private owners, who compete against each other like virtual soccer managers on computers and consider this sport just as a big business & fun, are the death of football/soccer in my eyes! :rolleyes:


Gute N8

totally agree
Keith why are you getting so worked up that some of us dislike/hate Hoffenheim?
i believe we have that right and good reasoning for it.

If you don't want us to complain, then what the hell is the point of a forum?

[footyfan1]

totally agree
Keith why are you getting so worked up that some of us dislike/hate Hoffenheim?
i believe we have that right and good reasoning for it.

If you don't want us to complain, then what the hell is the point of a forum?

You should stop bitching. Where did I ever say you can't hate Hoffenheim?

But just as you have the right to hate on them, I have the right to tell you why I think you're a bunch of jealous haters.

Why do you think "rights" at these forums only work in your favor???