Midfield General?

[Dark Savante]

The clamour to replace to find the next Keano has yielded no results. Is it any wonder why? How many cocksure, confident, dominant CM's can you actually see out there in world football? The type of player who really is the dynamo that makes a team function and is competent as an all round CM? I was just reading an article about the FA Cup win over Liverpool in '96 and it had 'and Keane the Midfield General took it upon himself to dominate proceedings' um, how many players can you actually see out there that can do that, or even attempt to do so?

I don't mean with quality of Keane either, well, not neccessarily, I mean the players who are tireless and yet have an abundance of talent. The only one that comes close for me in today's football is Gerrard and he is hardly a general of any sort but his way of playing is reminiscent of numerous players who made their living in the 90's

I think that the Keane type of CM is a dying breed. I don't think players are being produced to be so broad in their range of abilities in midfield anymore. We now see specialists who are good at one thing or another, but hardly any all rounders at all. Look at all the best NT's for example and then try to find a CM who is as great in one direction as he is in the other. It isn't easy.

Think about this list: Davids, Veira, Baraja, Keane, Effenberg, Hierro(when he played CM) Redondo, Sammer - all players of a similar attitude and fight who could play CM and were around in the mid to late 90's

You cannot reel out a list of names for players at CM as effective as any of these in today's game, because for the most part, such players have been phased out. Most CM's who come through will be quickly turned into an AM or DM these days. Rarely will you see a box-to-boxer kept as is.

We had our eyes on Essien because no doubt he is quality but I bet it is because there are so few players of his type out there anymore. It doesn't matter which top class club you look at - you wont find new CM's coming through who match any of the ones I listed for the 90's and perhaps if those guys were all 20 or so years old in todays game you'd probably see them all turned into DM's or AM's as well...

Robson/Ince/Keane - all the same type of player and truthfully, extremely easy to spot and enquire about. I don't see any of that type out there even in the English league anymore. Even Germany are using box-to-boxers sparingly - players are not being churned out for that role anymore. Not even in our reserves do we have more than 2 being an extremely young Gibson and maybe R.Jones. David Jones for all his qualities is more of an attacking player then a true (90's type) CM who can defend as well as he attacked.

I'm thinking perhaps we are going to have to move with the times ourselves because if we keep looking for a central midfield general we could be waiting a very long time because they are not being made anymore.

[Vermont Red]

It has been said the the NFL in the United States is a copycat league, meaning that whatever is perceived to have been the reason for the success of the previous champion, is certain to be imitated by other teams the following season. I submit that this is the case in most team sports.

For good or for ill, the pattern that has emerged in the past few years, as exemplified by Chelsea, is a style of play based on strict tactical roles. It is the opposite of total football. Makelele, for all his excellence, is one-dimensional. This is by design. DS has indentified the consequences, the endangerment of the two-way CM. The fact that developing one-dimensional players is easier than developing well-rounded players also contributes to the current culture of specialization.

I don't expect to see it change any time soon. It is easier for teams to find players for the limited roles and it appears to be easier to achieve a certain level of success this way. I have been wondering recently about what rule changes could be implemented to offset the pragmatic approach to football. Ultimately the only way things will change is if there is a dramatic change in the lifeblood of European football; television and gate revenues. An overwhelming negative vote by the fans with their wallets could make something happen. Until then, I think DS is right. The two-way CM is about to become extinct.

[subbuteo]

This guy suggest Ballack or even Vieira if United can get them or even Gravesen.

http://www.goal.com/NewsDetail.aspx?idNews=96426&idSez=19

[johno]

I agree w/ you for the most part DS... I think with how conservative the game has become the box to box players still exhist, but rather than be the anchor of the midfield and a bonus in attack they have become the spearhead of the attack and a bonus to the defense.

Gerrard, Lampard, Ballack, Xabi Alonso (less so), VanBommel, Xavi and Baraja (less so) are all their respective team's primary playmaker (except for VanBommel) and they all work hard on defense adding to the team's work ethic and helping to win the ball while paired with hard workers to help form a tough to beat midfield.

Of those on that list, Gerrard, Xabi and Van Bommel could probably all be solid defensive/holding mids but in today's disciplined game, they would not be allowed to participate as much in attack as they can/should/desire to.

While Keane is an amazing talent and his ability to influence the game from his position is probably the greatest of this era we must understand that while he has box to box qualities he was much like Gerrard was when he was Gerrards' age. Keane scored 8 goals in the first half of his first season with United when Robson was injured for much of it. Robson urged Keane to take a bigger responsibilty in building our moves and spend less time down the pitch. Keane scored just 3 goals in the second half of the season and for the most part he became our playmaker.

In the EPL a playmaker is not the same as in La Liga... he's not a showboat a player or an amazing passer who can thread the needle... he's a simple passer who can transition the game between defense to offense. He's given no time on the ball and his distribution is his greatest asset. The decisions he makes influence whether the team breaks quickly or slowly and he controls the pace of the game. While on occasion he'll pop up at the end of a move or show for the ball at the top of the box, he's generally behind the play tugging strings and yelling instructions. That's what Keane has been for the greater part of his career. Sure he's become even more restricted in his forward forays since the hip injury but he's still been our playmaker and while its nice to remember the days of him rampaging about midfield the truth is, he's been alot more controlled over the last 5-6 years.

That's what we should be looking for... someone who can control the game, not necessarily a playmaker who can make all the passes, just someone who can make the right, simple passes as well as break up the opposing team's attacks.

A Mascherano or Makoun or Diarra type player would suffice... someone like Owen Hargreeves would also do the job well I think.

[benni...]

There are many of them out there. They are in so many countries, and they do their job, and do it well. Depends exactly what your looking for.

Right now, there is one that i cant stop thinking about. Hedwiges Maduro. Perfect box to box player. He has it all. He can distribute, he can win balls, he is creative, he goes forward and comes back with ease. He controls the game and the pace of his teams attack.

His first call up to the dutch national team, was a prime example of things to come in his career. before he came in, the Dutch were rushing a bit, couldnt really tack passes together, and were bumbling slightly. When he came in, the possesion turned in the dutch's favour. He controlled the game.

If not him, Benoit Pendretti. He has seena shortage in playing time in Lyon, since Juninho signed his contract extenstion, and Tiago was purchased.

There are many more that i could name who, with the right attitude, and patience, can be made. They may not be the next Roy Keane, but face it, there is not anything like that coming through for a while. You have to forget this reasoning that latin players cannot make it in the EPL, because if they wanted to, they would. Its all about self belief.

[nicephoras]

The clamour to replace to find the next Keano has yielded no results. Is it any wonder why? How many cocksure, confident, dominant CM's can you actually see out there in world football? The type of player who really is the dynamo that makes a team function and is competent as an all round CM? I was just reading an article about the FA Cup win over Liverpool in '96 and it had 'and Keane the Midfield General took it upon himself to dominate proceedings' um, how many players can you actually see out there that can do that, or even attempt to do so?

I don't mean with quality of Keane either, well, not neccessarily, I mean the players who are tireless and yet have an abundance of talent. The only one that comes close for me in today's football is Gerrard and he is hardly a general of any sort but his way of playing is reminiscent of numerous players who made their living in the 90's

I think that the Keane type of CM is a dying breed. I don't think players are being produced to be so broad in their range of abilities in midfield anymore. We now see specialists who are good at one thing or another, but hardly any all rounders at all. Look at all the best NT's for example and then try to find a CM who is as great in one direction as he is in the other. It isn't easy.

Think about this list: Davids, Veira, Baraja, Keane, Effenberg, Hierro(when he played CM) Redondo, Sammer - all players of a similar attitude and fight who could play CM and were around in the mid to late 90's

You cannot reel out a list of names for players at CM as effective as any of these in today's game, because for the most part, such players have been phased out. Most CM's who come through will be quickly turned into an AM or DM these days. Rarely will you see a box-to-boxer kept as is.

We had our eyes on Essien because no doubt he is quality but I bet it is because there are so few players of his type out there anymore. It doesn't matter which top class club you look at - you wont find new CM's coming through who match any of the ones I listed for the 90's and perhaps if those guys were all 20 or so years old in todays game you'd probably see them all turned into DM's or AM's as well...

Robson/Ince/Keane - all the same type of player and truthfully, extremely easy to spot and enquire about. I don't see any of that type out there even in the English league anymore. Even Germany are using box-to-boxers sparingly - players are not being churned out for that role anymore. Not even in our reserves do we have more than 2 being an extremely young Gibson and maybe R.Jones. David Jones for all his qualities is more of an attacking player then a true (90's type) CM who can defend as well as he attacked.

I'm thinking perhaps we are going to have to move with the times ourselves because if we keep looking for a central midfield general we could be waiting a very long time because they are not being made anymore.

I don't think you're correct on suggesting that Baraja, Davids and their ilk are similar to Keane. Those players are prototypical box to box players. The level of control Keane and Redondo had on the game at their primes are unmatched. The last similar player to that vein was Mendieta, before the move to Lazio turned him into a pumpkin. There are currently no players out there like that. If only Lampard tackled better, he might have been it, but he doesn't. Essien is more like Davids than he is like Keane. And Davids and Keane are pretty different players.

[nicephoras]

If not him, Benoit Pendretti. He has seena shortage in playing time in Lyon, since Juninho signed his contract extenstion, and Tiago was purchased.

You want ManUtd to buy a player who's having trouble beating out Tiago?

[Crumpsalldave]

huhuhu you said cocksure.

[SirManchester]

Good point DS, I was talking to one of my friends about this the other day, Essien would have been perfect for us, and as of now it doesn't look like theres anyone notable out there that comes close. Ballack as much as an offensive midfielder he is, he comes back to defend, intercept passes, etc and bosses the midfield around pretty well, he's no Keane or Effenberg but its the closest and effective player that is a possibility for United.

[benni...]

You want ManUtd to buy a player who's having trouble beating out Tiago?

Tiago, isnt a bad player. He was a victim of Chelsea's poor transfer policy. He worked his ass of for Chelsea, did well, some times, considering he is still young, he did well agains tManchester United. But since you have the money, you just buy new players, and send him else where. He served Chelsea well, but you sold him, before Geremi or Glen Johnson.

[DutchFootballRulez]

Glen Johnson is 20. Man Utd hasn't sold Miller yet either.

[SirManchester]

Glen Johnson is 20. Man Utd hasn't sold Miller yet either.

maybe we can cash in on Johnson, we need a RB, who would be better ,Johnson or Volz?

[Dark Savante]

I don't think you're correct on suggesting that Baraja, Davids and their ilk are similar to Keane. Those players are prototypical box to box players. The level of control Keane and Redondo had on the game at their primes are unmatched. The last similar player to that vein was Mendieta, before the move to Lazio turned him into a pumpkin. There are currently no players out there like that. If only Lampard tackled better, he might have been it, but he doesn't. Essien is more like Davids than he is like Keane. And Davids and Keane are pretty different players.
I'm talking really about personaliy, bite and zest the fervour with which those players went about the business of 'getting stuck in' and then getting on with things. Davids was never a general but the way he made his presence known on the pitch and his way of playing was very typical of that bunch of players in the late 90's thru to this century. It is almost none exiistant in today's game. Most firebrands have been tempered or turned into something else. A dying breed imo.

[StrikerCW]

I'm talking really about personaliy, bite and zest the fervour with which those players went about the business of 'getting stuck in' and then getting on with things. Davids was never a general but the way he made his presence known on the pitch and his way of playing was very typical of that bunch of players in the late 90's thru to this century. It is almost none exiistant in today's game. Most firebrands have been tempered or turned into something else. A dying breed imo.
Rooney?

[Kavster]

I'm amazed no one has mentioned any of the 3 Milan midfielders, Pirlo, Gattuso or Seedorf. Okay, i know Seedorf and Pirlo hardly boss the midfield, but their passing and reading of the game imo is second to not many. However, Gattuso is one of that dying breed that you talk about DS, and you appear to have overlooked him completely. He has the tenacity and bite needed rip apart any EPL midfield (eat your heart out Robbie Savage). He may not be the biggest player out there, but boy does he impose himself on games. As someone posted in another thread, it's almost as if he's calling out to us to go and sign him. Surely it's worth a dabble...

[bsucio9]

I'm amazed no one has mentioned any of the 3 Milan midfielders, Pirlo, Gattuso or Seedorf. Okay, i know Seedorf and Pirlo hardly boss the midfield, but their passing and reading of the game imo is second to not many. However, Gattuso is one of that dying breed that you talk about DS, and you appear to have overlooked him completely. He has the tenacity and bite needed rip apart any EPL midfield (eat your heart out Robbie Savage). He may not be the biggest player out there, but boy does he impose himself on games. As someone posted in another thread, it's almost as if he's calling out to us to go and sign him. Surely it's worth a dabble...

Plus, did you see that goal he scored last week?!?!?!? :eek:

[littleman]

Rooney?

Put a scouser into a Manchester team including Gary-"I-hate-scousers"-Neville and that's what you get. :D









I'm kidding, by the way..

Gattuso is a fine option, and rumours have floated since more than a year ago. But I'm not sure if SAF is making any inquiries into this.. he looks like a good replacement for Keane with that workrate and adequate skill. Maybe a Ballack-Gattuso midfield? Plenty of shielding and forward impetus in that combination.

[Dark Savante]

I'm amazed no one has mentioned any of the 3 Milan midfielders, Pirlo, Gattuso or Seedorf. Okay, i know Seedorf and Pirlo hardly boss the midfield, but their passing and reading of the game imo is second to not many. However, Gattuso is one of that dying breed that you talk about DS, and you appear to have overlooked him completely. He has the tenacity and bite needed rip apart any EPL midfield (eat your heart out Robbie Savage). He may not be the biggest player out there, but boy does he impose himself on games. As someone posted in another thread, it's almost as if he's calling out to us to go and sign him. Surely it's worth a dabble...
Nah, Gattuso does not have an offensive bone in his body. The CM's I mentioned apart from Davids had a very solid offensive contribution both with goals and passing. Gattuso falls way below the standard for a true box-to-boxer in the offensive regard.

He certainly has the heart, but he's a modfied player at best..what I would expect some of the others would have been made into if they were 20yrs old in todays game - instructed to stay back and destroy, destroy, destroy.

He certainly has the heart of the players I mentioned but not the talent unfortunately.

[Kavster]

Plus, did you see that goal he scored last week?!?!?!? :eek:
Can't say I did...:o

[Dark Savante]

Rooney?
That type of heart yea, but in a CM not a wierd, hard to catergorize, one off kid. ;)