Sun Media: Not everyone happy with Toronto stadium deal

[Canadian_Supporter]

"TORONTO -- No matter how you do the math, a proposed 20,000-seat soccer stadium to be built on the Canadian National Exhibition grounds still is nearly $2 million shy of its estimated $64-million construction cost.

And the starting price of stadiums, no matter how small, rarely bears any resemblance to its final tally."


http://www.edmontonsun.com/Sports/Soccer/2005/10/20/1270753-sun.html

Don't newspapers have fact checkers? Canada is hosting the U20 World Championship and not the U17 World Championship. :rolleyes:

[Saviola7]

Don't newspapers have fact checkers? Canada is hosting the U20 World Championship and not the U17 World Championship. :rolleyes:

They also refer to the MLS as MSL once ...

[DoyleG]

It's the typesetter. I hate having to bring that old Air Farce radio sketch up.

[DoyleG]

TorStar Article

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1129758433469&call_pageid=1044529386722&col=1044529386490

Nice interesting bit here.

Terms and conditions of an agreement between the city, the Canadian Soccer Association and Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment state that MLSE is responsible for construction cost overruns at the 20,000-seat, $62.8 million stadium.

MLSE also would pay the first $250,000 of any operating shortfalls. But after that, the report says, the city/Exhibition Place board and MLSE would "share equally in funding any annual operating shortfalls or annual shortfalls in capital expenditures."

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

The fact that MLSE is guaranteeing to pay for all the cost overruns makes the initial there is $2 million missing in the funding sums and the starting price usually bears no resemblence to the final cost complaint of the "concerned citizen" seem a bit absurd doesn't it, Doyle? In reality Joe Pantalone and co from Exhibition Place drove a very hard bargain and it's easy to see why Kevan Pipe described the last minute meeting on Tuesday that finally resulted in this deal as being "intense" and why Richard Peddie was so concerned it all could crumble at the start of the week. MLSE have stepped up to the plate in a big way in financial terms.

The City of Toronto will be the stadium owners and will be making full use of this stadium during events like Caribana so it is not unreasonable that they will be kicking in some of the cash to build it. There has been a general feeling for the last decade or so that demolishing the old Exhibition Stadium grandstand was a mistake in infrastructure terms. The money the Feds are pouring in pales into insignificance beside the money that will be spent on the 2010 Winter Olympics in Vancouver. The stuff about using the Rogers Centre is laughable. How many stadia in North America are used for major league baseball plus two other top tiered sports leagues? Exactly how many prime weekend dates does he think are going to be left over after the Blue Jays and Argos have scheduled their games and major concerts are factored in. The reason the Argos wanted out was because they were getting a very raw deal that way and it was endangering the franchise's survival.

[RealGooner]

Not concerned by this article. And its a cop out to blame the typesetter, the fact is the writer didn't do his homework.

[DoyleG]

The fact that MLSE is guaranteeing to pay for all the cost overruns makes the initial there is $2 million missing in the funding sums and the starting price usually bears no resemblence to the final cost complaint of the "concerned citizen" seem a bit absurd doesn't it, Doyle? In reality Joe Pantalone and co from Exhibition Place drove a very hard bargain and it's easy to see why Kevan Pipe described the last minute meeting on Tuesday that finally resulted in this deal as being "intense" and why Richard Peddie was so concerned it all could crumble at the start of the week. MLSE have stepped up to the plate in a big way in financial terms.

You really think MLSE will be more than eager to pay for a real cost overrun? Since most of the money is comming from government sources, the cost overruns will be quite signifigant. This isn't even going to be a bare bones facility since MLSE will be demanding all the bells and whistles be attached to it. Once again, taxpayers will be taken for a ride because of a Toronto project.

The City of Toronto will be the stadium owners and will be making full use of this stadium during events like Caribana so it is not unreasonable that they will be kicking in some of the cash to build it. There has been a general feeling for the last decade or so that demolishing the old Exhibition Stadium grandstand was a mistake in infrastructure terms. The money the Feds are pouring in pales into insignificance beside the money that will be spent on the 2010 Winter Olympics in Vancouver. The stuff about using the Rogers Centre is laughable. How many stadia in North America are used for major league baseball plus two other top tiered sports leagues? Exactly how many prime weekend dates does he think are going to be left over after the Blue Jays and Argos have scheduled their games and major concerts are factored in. The reason the Argos wanted out was because they were getting a very raw deal that way and it was endangering the franchise's survival.

MLSE will be running the facility so they will be the ones who decide who will get in. Thinking that the city will have any say in the facility is completly idiotic. And while all this talk of a "great" Toronto stadium is going on, the Rogers Centre is getting tens of thousands of fans to watch high profile clubs go at it. People aren't going to be fooled that easily by all this talk of an SSS. You also seem to forget that with the fact that you can play year round at Rogers means far more dates are avaliable for teams to come in and play.

About time you consider the fact that perhaps the Argos pulled out of the stadium deal beacuse it was going to cost them far more in the long term. The Argos would've been saddled with debt while others come in and dicatate what goes on at the stadium. All in all the Argos stadium plans seemed more of a ploy to get a better deal out of the Rogers Centre.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

You really think MLSE will be more than eager to pay for a real cost overrun? Since most of the money is comming from government sources, the cost overruns will be quite signifigant. This isn't even going to be a bare bones facility since MLSE will be demanding all the bells and whistles be attached to it. Once again, taxpayers will be taken for a ride because of a Toronto project.

You clearly have totally missed the point. Any cost overrun beyond the initial budget will be met in its totality by MLSE. If they want the extra bells and whistles they will be the ones paying for them. End of story. They will also be the ones paying for any overtime and extra shifts that are required to meet the June 2007 deadline for the WYC.

MLSE will be running the facility so they will be the ones who decide who will get in. Thinking that the city will have any say in the facility is completly idiotic. And while all this talk of a "great" Toronto stadium is going on, the Rogers Centre is getting tens of thousands of fans to watch high profile clubs go at it. People aren't going to be fooled that easily by all this talk of an SSS. You also seem to forget that with the fact that you can play year round at Rogers means far more dates are avaliable for teams to come in and play.

Exactly how many weekend dates do you think are left after the Blue Jays have their 80 or so home games and the Argos have their 10 or so in summer-fall seasons that largely overlap with that of MLS?

About time you consider the fact that perhaps the Argos pulled out of the stadium deal beacuse it was going to cost them far more in the long term. The Argos would've been saddled with debt while others come in and dicatate what goes on at the stadium. All in all the Argos stadium plans seemed more of a ploy to get a better deal out of the Rogers Centre.

The Argos pulled out after a questionable land deal involving one of their owners and staff at York U started to become an issue in the media. The York U project also gave them the leverage required to finally get some prime weekend dates at the Rogers Centre.

[DoyleG]

You clearly have totally missed the point. Any cost overrun beyond the initial budget will be met in its totality by MLSE. If they want the bells and whistles they will be the ones paying for them. End of story. They will also be the ones paying for any overtime and extra shifts that are required to meet the June 2007 deadline for the WYC.

Yet you seem to forget that MLSE expects the overruns to be minimal. The cost for such a stadium is rather low given that what's being spent even in the States for stadiums that are most privatley funded. How do think MLSE will react when it goes further over budget and leaves them with a much bigger deb tload to deal with? They wouldn't be happy at all.

Exactly how many weekend dates do you think are left after the Blue Jays have their 80 or so home games and the Argos have their 10 or so in seasons that largely overlap with that of MLS?

FieldTurf + Dome = More dates avaliable for additional tennants.

Simple as that.

The Argos pulled out after a questionable land deal involving one of their owners and staff at York U started to become an issue in the media. The York U project also gave them the leverage required to finally get some prime weekend dates at the Rogers Centre.

Yet they got the deal they wanted out of Rogers Centre which shows no matter what kind of spin is put on, it was all about getting a better deal at the Roger Centre.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Yet you seem to forget that MLSE expects the overruns to be minimal. The cost for such a stadium is rather low given that what's being spent even in the States for stadiums that are most privatley funded. How do think MLSE will react when it goes further over budget and leaves them with a much bigger deb tload to deal with? They wouldn't be happy at all.

Larry Tannenbaum, MLSE's current chairman, runs a major construction firm. Maybe just maybe they actually know what they are doing on this?

FieldTurf + Dome = More dates avaliable for additional tennants.

Simple as that.

Yet they got the deal they wanted out of Rogers Centre which shows no matter what kind of spin is put on, it was all about getting a better deal at the Roger Centre.

MLB, the CFL and MLS are all basically inactive for the third of the year from December to March when the roof is actually required to make those sports doable in Toronto. MLS requires prime weekend dates to pull in the largest possible crowds and tends to have its games on Saturday for that reason. Once the Blue Jays have their 80 home dates and the Argos have their 10 or so and other events are factored in soccer would be left with diddleysquat in that regard (worth noting that 5 out of 9 Argos home games were on Mon to Thu weeknights for the current season with 1 Fri evening and 3 Sat dates) and that's before we even get to the question of the size of the rental and control of concession revenue streams. The Rogers Centre is a total non-starter for pro soccer in Toronto.

[narduch]

A Toronto MLS franchise playing in the SkyDome is a total non-starter. There simply are not enough weekend dates available with the Jays and Argos already taking up most of them.

BBTB makes a good point about the Argo's not playing that many weekend games at the SkyDome this year. I wonder if they will be begging to be a tennant at the Ex in the future. I guess time will tell.

[texgator]

Cost overruns were covered by Hunt Sports Group in the construction of Pizza Hut Park....which was also a private/public partnership project. Instead of the initial $15 million HSG was supposed to be contributing it ended up costing them around $40 million. And while they might not be too happy about it, they did it. Most of the things that caused the pricetag to increase were amenitites that HSG wanted to add after the budget had been set. With government entities you can't just go back and ask for more money. Any organization that is going into a public/private project is well aware of that fact. Sounds like MLSE is ready and willing to accept this responsibility.

[DoyleG]

Larry Tannenbaum, MLSE's current chairman, runs a major construction firm. Maybe just maybe they actually know what they are doing on this?

The only thing your proving is that MLSE may want to line it's own pockets with money.



MLB, the CFL and MLS are all basically inactive for the third of the year from December to March when the roof is actually required to make those sports doable in Toronto. MLS requires prime weekend dates to pull in the largest possible crowds and tends to have its games on Saturday for that reason. Once the Blue Jays have their 80 home dates and the Argos have their 10 or so and other events are factored in soccer would be left with diddleysquat in that regard (worth noting that 5 out of 9 Argos home games were on Mon to Thu weeknights for the current season with 1 Fri evening and 3 Sat dates) and that's before we even get to the question of the size of the rental and control of concession revenue streams. The Rogers Centre is a total non-starter for pro soccer in Toronto.

Once again you have no clue. The dome means no rainouts for the Jays and thus no dates to make up at home. They stick with those dates and the Argos stick with theirs so no collision of dates. FieldTurf tray also means a quick turnaround in preparing for another sport. If MLSE can bargin it's into a new stadium, it can bargin it's way into Rogers Centre.

Quit making excuses.

[DoyleG]

Cost overruns were covered by Hunt Sports Group in the construction of Pizza Hut Park....which was also a private/public partnership project. Instead of the initial $15 million HSG was supposed to be contributing it ended up costing them around $40 million. And while they might not be too happy about it, they did it. Most of the things that caused the pricetag to increase were amenitites that HSG wanted to add after the budget had been set. With government entities you can't just go back and ask for more money. Any organization that is going into a public/private project is well aware of that fact. Sounds like MLSE is ready and willing to accept this responsibility.

HSG and MLSE are two different groups.

What HSG may be willing to tolerate is what MLSE may not.

[texgator]

HSG and MLSE are two different groups.

What HSG may be willing to tolerate is what MLSE may not.
May, maybe, may.....that's great, but what information do you have that actually suggests this. HSG is notoriously cheap in regards to their soccer expenditures....particularly in comparison to AEG. Yet, they still covered the cost overruns. Right now all we have is a commitment from MLSE, a public/private partnership that would require such a commitment, and a history of MLS ownership living up to that commitment. All you have is supposition and, apparantly, an axe to grind.

[narduch]

The only thing that I don't understand is how can anyone be for the advancement of Canadian soccer in general, and be against this stadium.

It doesn't make any sense.

[DoyleG]

May, maybe, may.....that's great, but what information do you have that actually suggests this. HSG is notoriously cheap in regards to their soccer expenditures....particularly in comparison to AEG. Yet, they still covered the cost overruns. Right now all we have is a commitment from MLSE, a public/private partnership that would require such a commitment, and a history of MLS ownership living up to that commitment. All you have is supposition and, apparantly, an axe to grind.

HSG proved that it was willing to spend money over budget to have PHP Park brought to what it is. It will be interesting to see how it looks come MLS Cup time.

MLSE isn't run by people like Uncle Lamar who would be willing to spend what is needed. The fact that hes is upgrading Crew Stadium as well is showing that percived cheapness is going away. MLSE is majority owned by a pension fund and already has a large amount of debt it hasn't even cleared. How would the Ontario Teachers Pension Fund react to the idea that they may have to take on further debt just to get the stadium the way MLSE wants it? They certainly wouldn't be too pleased to hear that since it's their money going into to project.

You forget that MLSE didn't want to pay for the stadium in the first place. They expected others to foot the bill for them and it was only with recent reluctance that they even started to cough up funds.

Fool once, blame the city (Ricoh Colisieum). Fool twice, blame MLSE. That is if they want to stick around to explain themselves.

[DoyleG]

The only thing that I don't understand is how can anyone be for the advancement of Canadian soccer in general, and be against this stadium.

It doesn't make any sense.

Since this stadium will have nothing to do with advancing Canadian soccer.

Only filling someones pockets.

[texgator]

You forget that MLSE didn't want to pay for the stadium in the first place. They expected others to foot the bill for them and it was only with recent reluctance that they even started to cough up funds.
And the same can be said for HSG and Pizza Hut Park. Initially they wanted 100% government funding, but that didn't happen so they went into a partnership agreement. Seems like the two deals are more similar than you are willing to admit.

[DoyleG]

And the same can be said for HSG and Pizza Hut Park. Initially they wanted 100% government funding, but that didn't happen so they went into a partnership agreement. Seems like the two deals are more similar than you are willing to admit.

This stadium was never about 100% government funding. If it was, it would already be built.

The stadium was always going to have private money involved. MLSE wasn't forking it over when everyone else had asked in the first place.

The stadiums are two different things. They are not the same. That is the reality.