TORONTO MLS - The Lineup

[curtwpg]

At the present time, there is a significant Canadian talent pool that is playing in USL 1, abroad, and in college soccer. Many of these players are clearly at, or above, the general standard of a great many US players playing in MLS (i.e. Rhine, Matt Taylor, etc). The Canadian players are unattractive to current MLS clubs for a number of reasons, the most obvious being that they will count as internationals and are not from a country that will attract attention and fans.

Toronto MLS should automatically be filled with Canadians who will most likely be much better than the players available to typical expansion clubs in the expansion draft. I would expect that a great many of these players can be picked up for rather reasonable salaries.

IMO, the most likely returnees would be Canadian national team players who are playing in what I consider to be the less prestigious (and lucrative leagues). For example:

- Tony Menezes (Ganzu - China)(hometown: Toronto)
- Patrice Bernier (Tromso)
- Rob Friend (Molde - Norway)
- Ali Gerba (Sundsvall - Sweden)
- Sando Grande (Viking - Norway)
- Atiba Hurchinson (Helsingborg - Sweden)(hometown: Toronto)
- Daniel Imhof (Bochum- Germany)
- Lars Hirschfield (Tromso)
- Kenny Stamtopoulos (FC Boden - Sweden)(hometown: Toronto)
- Olivier Occean (Odd Grenland - Norway)
- Rocco Placentino (Gualdo - Italy (Serie B)
- Chris Pozniak (Haugesund FK - Norway)(hometown: Toronto)
- Maycoll Canizalez (Werder Bremen Reserves)(hometown: Toronto)
- Marco Reda (Aalborg - Denmark).

I suggest that many of these players would be more than happy to return to play in MLS. Alot of these players in Scandinavia and other less prestigious European countries most likely only get OK money. Also, the weather is worse than Toronto, and the cost of living is through the roof. Also, alot of these players are from the Toronto region and I think they would love to come home to play.

If 7 of these guys came home you are automatically going to have a team that will be competitive.

Say 7 of those guys listed returned.

Then there is the possibility of adding a couple of the following players who I would describe as the big guns (based upon the leagues in which they play):

- Paul Stalteri (Tottenham)(howetown: Toronto)
- Josh Simpson (Milwall)
- Adrian Serioux (Milwall??)
- Jim Brennan (Norwich)(howetown: Toronto)
- Dwayne Derosario (SJ)(howetown: Toronto)
- Pat Onstad (SJ)
- Iain Hume (Leicester)(howetown: Toronto)
- Julian DeGuzman (Deportivo La Coruna)howetown: Toronto)
- Kevin McKenna (Energie Cottbus)
- Jason Devos (Ipswich)(howetown: Appin - southern Ontario)
- Jaime Peters (Ipswich)(howetown: Pickering)
- Tomasz Radzinski (Fulham)(howetown: Toronto)
- Ante Jazic (FC Kuban - Russia)

Say 2 of the Canadian big guns returned.

Then you have the USL Divison 1 players in the Canadian World Cup Pool:

- Patrick Leduc (Impact)
- Adam Braz (Impact)
- Gabe Gervais (Impact)
- Nevio Pizzolitto (Impact)
- Mike Franks (Whitecaps)
- Marin Nash (Whitecaps)
- Jason Jordan (Whitecaps)
- Felix Brillian (Virginia Beach)

Many of these players would easily be on current MLS rosters but for the fact that they would be counted as "foreigners", due to their Canadian nationalities. I should point out that these are not the only Canadians in USL who are capable of playing in MLS.

Say 4 of the USL Divison 1 players in the Canadian World Cup Pool signed on.

Toronto can be far more choosy than typical expansion teams because they will have a wealth of solid Canadians to choose from. For example, they may have chosen Jeff Agoos, Joe Franchino, Sergio Galvan Rey or Alex Zotinca (who were all available in the last expansion draft). The fact that these guys may have sizeable salaries and may be a bit long in the tooth would not be seen as such an impediment to choosing them. Can either RSL or Chivas USA honestly say that any of these 4 guys would not have been very helpful?

Then say they pick up 1 or 2 decent players in the expansion draft

Then say they pick up 1 or 2 good senior internationals (I am being pessimistic here).

Then say they pick up a number of young Canadians for their development squad 1 of whom suprises and is able to play a la Gomez (LA), Segares (CHI), Rolfe (CHI), etc.

Then say you pick up 1 or 2 transitional internationals who can compete.

All in all you have the possibility of a rather deep lineup.

Based upon the foregoing, I would say that this team would compete in the first year. They might not finish first but they would definitely be in a playoff battle and would not resemble RSL or Chivas in any way shape or form.

Hopefully, if the Toronto MLS team is developed properly, both on and off the field, it will be the first of 2 more to come (Vancouver and Montreal to follow). I truly believe the success of Toronto MLS is also highly dependent upon support from the entire country of Canada. Toronto MLS will be Canada's team. We need to buy merchandise, watch matches on television, make pilgrammages to catch games. There is no place for regional disputes and pettiness.

[CanuckFan]

Toronto MLS will be Canada's team.

Bulltweet. I'll be cheering for Dwayne De Rosario with San Jose.

[Canadian_Supporter]

Bulltweet. I'll be cheering for Dwayne De Rosario with San Jose.


... but what if he leaves San Jose for Europe or for the Toronto MLS team? Hmmm? ;)

[Beckham7]

... but what if he leaves San Jose for Europe or for the Toronto MLS team? Hmmm? ;)
Either he leaves San Jose for Europe, or he doesn't leave at all.:cool:

[Canadian_Supporter]

Either he leaves San Jose for Europe, or he doesn't leave at all.:cool:

Possibly. He seems to enjoy playing for San Jose and he is doing well on the field.

With that being said, I don't think I will be a Toronto MLS supporter at all. I will follow the results with interest, but that will be about the extent of it for me.

[Joe MacCarthy]

Toronto MLS should automatically be filled with Canadians who will most likely be much better than the players available to typical expansion clubs in the expansion draft. I would expect that a great many of these players can be picked up for rather reasonable salaries.

IMO, the most likely returnees would be Canadian national team players who are playing in what I consider to be the less prestigious (and lucrative leagues). For example:

- Tony Menezes (Ganzu - China)(hometown: Toronto)
- Chris Pozniak (Haugesund FK - Norway)(hometown: Toronto)
- Maycoll Canizalez (Werder Bremen Reserves)(hometown: Toronto)

I suggest that many of these players would be more than happy to return to play in MLS. Alot of these players in Scandinavia and other less prestigious European countries most likely only get OK money. Also, the weather is worse than Toronto, and the cost of living is through the roof. Also, alot of these players are from the Toronto region and I think they would love to come home to play.

- Patrick Leduc (Impact)
- Adam Braz (Impact)
- Gabe Gervais (Impact)
- Nevio Pizzolitto (Impact)
- Mike Franks (Whitecaps)
- Marin Nash (Whitecaps)
- Jason Jordan (Whitecaps)
- Felix Brillant (Virginia Beach)
You won't being seeing any of the guys you posted. The reason...money. Scandinavia probably pays more than double with perks such as cars and housing, that's why players go. That's why Occean didn't sign with the MetroStars? Moolah.

You'll see USLers and guys who have been having trouble finding/keeping employment, like Menezes.

And I don't think the Canada's team idea will fly but I'll be behind them.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

You won't being seeing any of the guys you posted. The reason...money. Scandinavia probably pays more than double with perks such as cars and housing, that's why players go. That's why Occean didn't sign with the MetroStars? Moolah.

Scandinavia is nowheresville in European pro soccer terms and the cost of living and taxation levels in the Nordic countries are sky high. Because of his Canadian passport Occean was going to be a fringe international development player at the Metrostars and was offered close to the league minimum. If he'd been offered the sort of money Onstad (who has a green card) and de Rosario (who is viewed as a top import player) are on at the Earthquakes or the sort of money a promising young American domestic player would receive it would have been a completely different scenario. Does this look like the big time to you?

http://www.oddgrenland.no/dir10005/db100161.nsf/5eb1a82382149765c1256cee004f6972/e1c5f9a1f33ce9ffc1256e68002c487a/Body/0.DB4?OpenElement&FieldElemFormat=jpg

Looks a lot like a Whitecaps or Impact game to me and the soccer probably isn't much better.

[jpg75]

I agree with MacCarthy. The bulk of the team will be USL players from the 3 CDN teams, sprinkle in a couple of nomads from the fringes of europe and abroad and voila. But, going forward the MLS TO team will be a nice safety net for prominent nats out of a job in europe...

[jpg75]

Scandanavia is nowheresville in European pro soccer terms and taxation levels in the Nordic countries are sky high. Occean was going to be a fringe development player at the Metrostars and was offered close to the league minimum. If he'd been offered the sort of money Onstad and de Rosario are on at the Earthquakes it would have been a totally different scenario.

It does however provide exposure to bigger European leagues through TV or UEFA competitions. Bernier (Besiktas), Occean (Roda JC) and Hutchinson (Chelsea, Birmingham, Udinese) may eventually reap those rewards...

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

It does however provide exposure to bigger European leagues through TV or UEFA competitions. Bernier (Besiktas), Occean (Roda JC) and Hutchinson (Chelsea, Birmingham, Udinese) may eventually reap those rewards...

Plenty of MLS players have had similar opportunities. Nobody in the top European countries pays any attention to leagues like Norway, Sweden and Denmark in television terms. They are almost as marginal to the European big time as USL-D1. The leagues that get watched and talked about are primarily England, Italy and Spain and to a lesser extent Germany, France and Holland. Scandinavian teams typically don't make it out of the qualifying rounds in European competition so nobody notices and nobody cares outside of the immediate domestic audience.

What can get Canadian players noticed as much as anything is playing for the CMNT. Because there are no club games on international dates those games get scouted in a big way by European club managers. Richard Hastings got a contract with a top Austrian club based on that stuff not what he was doing in the Scottish First Division with Ross County. Lars Hirschfeld got noticed by Tottenham when he played really well against one of their players Casey Keller's team, in the Gold Cup not because of what he was doing for the Calgary Storm etc etc

[DoyleG]

Scandinavia is nowheresville in European pro soccer terms and the cost of living and taxation levels in the Nordic countries are sky high. Because of his Canadian passport Occean was going to be a fringe international development player at the Metrostars and was offered close to the league minimum. If he'd been offered the sort of money Onstad (who has a green card) and de Rosario (who is viewed as a top import player) are on at the Earthquakes or the sort of money a promising young American domestic player would receive it would have been a completely different scenario. Does this look like the big time to you?

http://www.oddgrenland.no/dir10005/db100161.nsf/5eb1a82382149765c1256cee004f6972/e1c5f9a1f33ce9ffc1256e68002c487a/Body/0.DB4?OpenElement&FieldElemFormat=jpg

Looks a lot like a Whitecaps or Impact game to me and the soccer probably isn't much better.

Occean is an international and counts as the OG's player limit. Yet he is earining more than twice what he would've earned with the Metrostars, who had to offer to match but refused.

Of course you don't see it as professional in Norway. Anything that doesn't have business suits and glitzy stadiums aren't professional.

And the taxes are low in Norway. Stop crying.

[Saviola7]

Say 7 of those guys [Scandinavian/transients] listed returned.

Say 2 of the Canadian big guns returned.

Say 4 of the USL Divison 1 players in the Canadian World Cup Pool signed on.

Then say they pick up 1 or 2 decent players in the expansion draft

Then say they pick up 1 or 2 good senior internationals (I am being pessimistic here).

Then say they pick up a number of young Canadians for their development squad 1 of whom suprises and is able to play a la Gomez (LA), Segares (CHI), Rolfe (CHI), etc.

Then say you pick up 1 or 2 transitional internationals who can compete.

All in all you have the possibility of a rather deep lineup.


I like the way you presented this, but I think you are being incredibly optimistic, especially considering how much you'll be able to spend on salaries. 2 Canadian big guns, 1/2 good senior internationals, and 7 from scandinavia (unless they're the ones from the 2nd division)? Not likely IMO.

Also, you forgot Scarborough native Paul Peschisolido (Derby) ...

[jpg75]

What can get Canadian players noticed as much as anything is playing for the CMNT. Because there are no club games on international dates those games get scouted in a big way by European club managers. Richard Hastings got a contract with a top Austrian club based on that stuff not what he was doing in the Scottish First Division with Ross County. Lars Hirschfeld got noticed by Tottenham when he played really well against one of their players Casey Keller's team, in the Gold Cup not because of what he was doing for the Calgary Storm etc etc

I will certainly agree with you on the national team exposure point. And i would extend it to include numerous US Nats as well. In fact, i would go as far as saying that the majority of former MLS US nats playing or who played in Europe because of the national team and not the MLS. (eg. Beasley, McBride, Joe-Max Moore, Eddie Lewis, Bobby Convey etc.)

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Occean is an international and counts as the OG's player limit. Yet he is earining more than twice what he would've earned with the Metrostars, who had to offer to match but refused.

Of course you don't see it as professional in Norway. Anything that doesn't have business suits and glitzy stadiums aren't professional.

And the taxes are low in Norway. Stop crying.

MLS has a salary cap. European soccer clubs don't operate in that sort of fiscal environment. Because Oliver Occean was not American and was not a big name import the only roster spot available was a fringe league minimum one. Odd Grenland's budget was much more flexible in that regard. Norwegian soccer is very similar to USL-D1 in that there is a short summer season and many of the players have jobs outside of soccer. You appear to be making it up as you go along where taxation is concerned. Have you ever been to Norway? Wages have to be high to compensate for the sky high taxation levels.

http://www.norwaypost.no/content.asp?folder_id=21&cluster_id=20265

Government intervention is everywhere, most noticeably in the high taxation on almost everything. Norway's income-tax rates are at nearly 50 per cent, and some 60 per cent of the price of a new car is tax.

-On the other hand, wages are high, too, and the high tax pays for a cradle-to-grave welfare system that is probably the most comprehensive anywhere in the world: it offers 52 weeks maternity leave (on 80 per cent pay, or eight months at full pay), a world-class education system, free universities, high unemployment benefits, generous sick leave, and a guaranteed pension. There's also a superb public transport, and trains have baby compartments for the under-twos, with their own changing room.

[DoyleG]

MLS has a salary cap. European soccer clubs don't operate in that sort of fiscal environment. Because Oliver Occean was not American and was not a big name import the only roster spot available was a fringe league minimum one. Odd Grenland's budget was much more flexible in that regard. Norwegian soccer is very similar to USL-D1 in that there is a short summer season and many of the players have jobs outside of soccer. You appear to be making it up as you go along where taxation is concerned. Have you ever been to Norway? Wages have to be high to compensate for the sky high taxation levels.

http://www.norwaypost.no/content.asp?folder_id=21&cluster_id=20265

Government intervention is everywhere, most noticeably in the high taxation on almost everything. Norway's income-tax rates are at nearly 50 per cent, and some 60 per cent of the price of a new car is tax.

-On the other hand, wages are high, too, and the high tax pays for a cradle-to-grave welfare system that is probably the most comprehensive anywhere in the world: it offers 52 weeks maternity leave (on 80 per cent pay, or eight months at full pay), a world-class education system, free universities, high unemployment benefits, generous sick leave, and a guaranteed pension. There's also a superb public transport, and trains have baby compartments for the under-twos, with their own changing room.

You actaully need to think with that head of yours. MLS fans consider OO move to Norway as a loss. If you had even bothered to pay attention to the debates on this form, you would see that MLS had the oppotunity to keep Oliver in MLS but didn't take it.

Your article doesn't prove anything other than it was written by a Brit three years ago. The car tax only shows they have a high consumer tax. You don't seem to realize that the actual tax rate is much lower than what they advertise. Norway also exports oil, natural gas, hydroelectricity, and foodstuffs thanks to being basically a de facto member of the European Union as well having one of the worlds largest merchant marine organizations. Not to mention a health care system in which you have to pay out of your own pocket if you want extra.

Try actually looking at the real world. Things are quite different than you think they are.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

You actaully need to think with that head of yours. MLS fans consider OO move to Norway as a loss. If you had even bothered to pay attention to the debates on this form, you would see that MLS had the oppotunity to keep Oliver in MLS but didn't take it.

I followed all those debates closely and this has already been addressed within this thread, Doyle. MLS has a limited number of roster spots for foreign players and a salary cap. That meant that Oliver Occean despite being rated highly by the Metrostars could only be offered close to the league minimum. A Canadian franchise would have been much more likely to offer him more than that given that they need to fill their Canadian roster spots with the best possible quality in order to be competitive. The rules are deliberately designed to force the franchises to focus to a large extent on developing domestic talent (i.e. potential USMNT players in the case of the Metrostars) and to not go the NASL route of bringing in a team from overseas.

[DoyleG]

I followed all those debates closely and this has already been addressed within this thread, Doyle. MLS has a limited number of roster spots for foreign players and a salary cap. That meant that Oliver Occean despite being rated highly by the Metrostars could only be offered close to the league minimum. A Canadian franchise would have been much more likely to offer him more than that given that they need to fill their Canadian roster spots with the best possible quality in order to be competitive. The rules are deliberately designed to force the franchises to focus to a large extent on developing domestic talent (i.e. potential USMNT players in the case of the Metrostars) and to not go the NASL route of bringing in a team from overseas.

You obviously haven't been paying attention at all.

Try Again.

[RealGooner]

You obviously haven't been paying attention at all.

Try Again.

Usual cop-out answer.

[DoyleG]

Usual cop-out answer.

Wrong.

You guys need to look harder.

[TopDogg]

Wrong.

You guys need to look harder.
At what?

I can see the chip on your shoulder just fine from over here.