Arena's Tenure and the Defensive Midfielder

[Rahbiefowlah]

From ABMOD to Brian Carroll. With Armas, Zavagnin, Marsch et all in between, Arena has peered under every stone for the American Claude Makelele and handed caps to every faximile in sight.

In my opinion Brian Carroll will see more caps, talent questions aside. Arena-ologiaclly he did not put a foot wrong against Panama, passed with Shankly-esque ease, simplicity and accuracy, and destroyed with reasonable venom. As long as Arena is at the helm, this type of player will wear the shirt.

Arena's tactical flexibility seems to revolve around his use of the midfield. That midfield is often anchored by a destroyer, the most notorious and controversial, annoying and poorly-skilled, but likely crucial piece in the Arena puzzle. What is your evaluation of his use of these players and this position?

Mine is that we should have had scouts in Brooklyn when Shalrie Joseph was growing up.

[russ]

"You have given out too much Reputation in the last 24 hours, try again later."

Not just Arena-Nobby Stiles,Manu Petit,Dunga,Gattuso,Didi Hamann-some have more ball skill than others,but most sides have a central mid whose main role is disruptive to the opposition's attack as opposed to creating their side's play.They aren't into fantasy or artistry-we can call them "reality-based" footballers.

[Rahbiefowlah]

And shy of having Patrick Viera to choose, it seems a lot of managers prefer not to delegate 2-way responsibility to any midfielder at the international level. Arena doesn't. Hence Ricardo Clark subbing in for Martino and not Carroll last night.

[Winds350]

In Arena's defense, For most of his tenure he's had exactly two -2-way mids in the pool. With injuries, etc. it has meant he often has exactly zero of them to select.

The number of attacking mid/withdrawn forwards has been much higher. And it's much easier to get a creditable destroyer d-mid to pair with one of them than to find another pair of 2-way's.

[Rahbiefowlah]

True, but the players Arena chooses for this position seem especially un-eye-catching, their resumes extra thin on skill, their job discriptions extremely narrow. This is purely observatory, you understand.

[2-0 Baby]

Agreed on Shalrie Joseph.

However, you can't forget Pablo Mastroeni, the best guy (destroyer type) we've had in the position under Bruce.

Where would JOB be in this pantheon of greats? While not in the destroyer mold he did play a deep lying midfield role in '02 to wonderous effect.

[CyphaPSU]

I like Mastroeni in that role and that's it. I have zero confidence in pretty much anyone else for the defensive midfielder role. All the others just don't play with enough pace for the international level. I might say Armas would be second on my list for that role, but Pablo has a bit more skill and has more speed than Armas. Plus Pablo has that fiesty edge to him that you need for that role. But that's my opinion.

[Rahbiefowlah]

sorry to keep bumping my own thread, but a quick comment on Mastroeni. I think he brings a couple of dynamics to the position that most of the others Arena has chosen don't, namely the ability to pass for penetration and not just possession, and to dictate game tempo from deep in the midfield. not that he's Pirlo, but I much prefer our mentality going forward with him at D-Mid.

JOB is clearly not a destroyer, Reyna is clearly not a destroyer, however defensive their duties in the midfield might be, and to what extent they might be defensive. And however he may use them, Arena does usually choose these two when they are healthy, and granted, they are not usually healthy/available.

What is interesting to me from a tactical and stylistic point of view, is that Arena seems to often and systematically choose players who are not as technically gifted as others he may have chosen, or who lack the vision and poise that other available players may have.

The more controversial figures of Chris Armas and Richie Williams come to mind. Last night's preference of Carroll over Clark comes to mind. These are players with one, very defined, very limited intangible--the ability to destroy with focused vigilance. If you can pass, add at all to the attack (and most US D-mids can only pass well to the extent that it hinders their destroying, Mastroeni being the exception that I see) it is a variable Arena is willing to largely overlook or delegate to other members of the team.

I wonder what this has done to our development as a team. I wonder what this has done to our ability to win, to come from behind, to score first, to counter-attack. Good, bad, probably both. But this is now two cycles of players we've gone through, and we may go through a third. That's a generation.

Will there be a place for a developed Benny Feilhaber or a developed Eric Vasquez on an Arena team? Maybe. Will there be a place for a random-ass player from Wake Forest who sits the bench his entire rookie year and has marginal skill, but hyper-vigilance and boy scout allegiance to The Game Plan? There was last night, and Brian Carroll did very very well at what he was told to do. And we won.

Just the same, for as badly as I felt for Chris Armas, I felt a strong tinge of relief when he did his ACL before Japan Korea, and Mastroeni, a more technically gifted soccer player, took his chance well in that competition.

[hala-cosmos]

As a DC fan I was pleased and surprised w/ BC's performance last night. I've always been critical of his lack of vision and rough first touches, but he seems to be bringing it all together lately (for a D-mid, at least), matching his well-known 'destroying' abilities. He should def. benefit from a Nat. Team setup, since players are 100% more likely to make the proper runs and give him someone to go to when things get sticky. His long passes have been great for DC lately, also. He jsut needs to develop a nasty streak (a la D. Hernandez or ankle biter R. Williams). He plays too clean sometimes.

I've always been a fan of Mastro, generally, but injuries may have lessened his value to BA. Maybe Carroll steps in to the vacancy? (if there even is one?)

[MikeLastort2]

Fire Arena!!!

[lurking]

Fire Arena!!!

Because any possible criticism of Arena means your asking for him to be fired. :rolleyes:

[Winds350]

What is interesting to me from a tactical and stylistic point of view, is that Arena seems to often and systematically choose players who are not as technically gifted as others he may have chosen, or who lack the vision and poise that other available players may have.

The more controversial figures of Chris Armas and Richie Williams come to mind. Last night's preference of Carroll over Clark comes to mind. These are players with one, very defined, very limited intangible--the ability to destroy with focused vigilance. If you can pass, add at all to the attack (and most US D-mids can only pass well to the extent that it hinders their destroying, Mastroeni being the exception that I see) it is a variable Arena is willing to largely overlook or delegate to other members of the team.


For the WC 2002 cycle, as I recall, Mastro didn't get his citizenship until late in the final qualifying round. And he was a four year pro with four years of college at the time of the finals. So absent him, I guess I don't know who the more technically gifted players were that got overlooked.

For the WC 2006 cycle, Clark was a rookie last year and didn't start for SJ at d-mid the beginning of this year. Dempsey subbed out an injured Mastro for his first (or second?) cap, after a ROY season. Who else did you have in mind? I think the Carroll got the start over Clark last night because Bruce thinks more of Clark and didn't want to tell him to stay deep. In that sense it was more of a Clark/Martino or Clark/Dempsey choice, and given the number of caps in the midfield, Clark just ended up odd man out at the start. And by the time Clark came in. he was in a good position to show his 2-way skills. He had an experienced (if slow) RM next to him, his college roommate in front of him, and now settled Carroll behind him.

I really don't think Bruce is opposed to more talented players there, but there aren't a lot of silky smooth Americans lining up to play d-mid. And the first criteria is that you have to play the defensive part of the position at least as well as Armas before you get a shot. Because that really is the minimum standard.

I think going forward into WC 2010 there are more possabilities for 2-way pairings or simply more talented deep mids. Clark, Dempsey, Szetala, Daniel Hernandez without even dipping in to the younger ranks. Feilhaber get's mentioned quite a bit, from there.

The good news is that I think we have fewer tweener AM/WF types coming up. Martino strikes me as an AM, but leaning more towards a 2-way mid than a withdrawn forward. Adu? Tough to say yet.

[Rahbiefowlah]

Good point. And your point is backed up by the fact that when JOB is healthy and available, and Reyna is healthy and available, our midfield looks less like destroying and more like creating. So maybe the existence of the absolute stay-at-home destroyer is more due to Arena's lack of options. Or maybe he focuses on destroying in some games and dictating/creating in others according to the opposition.

[FirstStar]

Fire Arena!!!

CAP HIM FIRST!

[seahawkdad]

True, but the players Arena chooses for this position seem especially un-eye-catching, their resumes extra thin on skill, their job discriptions extremely narrow. This is purely observatory, you understand.Richie Williams while Bruce headed up DC United. Un-eye-catching, but an absolute ankle-biter in the midfield. Good for some MLS cups.

I wish I had the link, but it's lost. A couple of years ago there was an article that posited that all of the truely great teams of the world have had someone in that 'midfield destroyer' role. As I recall, the point of the article was that their role wasn't necessarily to elegantly launch the counter...it was to stop an attack and get the ball to someone who would launch it. Thus Arena's pleasure with USSoccerNet's MOTM, Brian Carroll. Short, accurate passes after stopping an attack through the midfield...something that Aramas still hasn't consistently mastered.

In my failed search for the article again, I Googled 'midfield destroyer'. Not an uncommon term, turns out.

Guess Bruce figures that having someone in that role is key to building one of the world's great teams.

[Rahbiefowlah]

No, I agree. Come to think of it, England could use one of those right now.

[Winds350]

I have a dream... Okay, maybe it's a nightmare... In it Sven-Goran Eriksson is saying:

"Our deepest talent pool is at midfield, so I've decided to use a 3-6-1"

Is that group the poster child for 'It's about more than picking the four most talented midfielders" or what?

Sorry for the thread drift there.....

[MikeLastort2]

Because any possible criticism of Arena means your asking for him to be fired. :rolleyes:

No. In spite of you're grammar error.

;)

[imasyko]

Robbie - IMO, it's doubtful that Arena stays past '06. From what I've read, he wants a European job, maybe he'll get one. Long shot, I know.

That means another coach, with perhaps a different philosophy? Considering how seldom JOB and Reyna have both been available, doesn't it follow that Arena has picked a team designed to get his best available players on the field. Is it his fault one of those has so often been Armas?

Against Panama, perhaps he didn't want to pair the occasionally offensive Clark with the defensively challenged Martino, thus exposing our backline in a game Arena probably felt he needed to win after the debacle in PR?

[btousley]

I like Mastroeni in that role and that's it. I have zero confidence in pretty much anyone else for the defensive midfielder role. All the others just don't play with enough pace for the international level. I might say Armas would be second on my list for that role, but Pablo has a bit more skill and has more speed than Armas. Plus Pablo has that fiesty edge to him that you need for that role. But that's my opinion.

Mastro clearly has the edge on skill and field knowledge for the international level - but in terms of speed and quickness - between Mastro, Armas, Zavagnin and others ..... - Carroll is far quicker and faster. I don't think I have ever seen him out and out beaten .... he is very quick. Quick with the ball and without it .... but his skill set and field knowledge is still poor.