Question

[ZANI]

This isn't about trolling guys. It is a genuine question. Most people forget one important aspect in planning, "Self criticism".

Chelsea spent almost all summer chasing Essien to strengthen their midfield, Arsenal sold Vieira and never bothered to replace him. What they should actually do was to keep Vieira and add someone else like Diop to the team.
Chelsea had Drogba and still brought back Crespo from Milan, Arsenal simply ignored an opportunity to sign Owen because they had Henry. Ramble about Roman and his money now, but that is not the point.

No doubt, Chelsea have good keepers with solid defense, to protect the defense they have Makelele and now Essien, still all players are supposed to help the defense.

Here is the question, if Chelsea with their strong squad play 4-3-3, depending on a lone striker. What does Wenger really expect when he continues to play his all attacking formation which to Zani looks like 0-0-10? Yes, Campbell and Cygan will score but does Lehmann get enough protection?

[Gunners11]

I think that now and in the future, our defense is one of our strong points. With the likes of Sol (remember he's just getting back from a long injury lay-off), Ashley Cole, and Toure anchoring the back we have plenty of experience. Add to that the likes of Clichy and Senderos who are raw but definately have shown lots of potential, I think were ok in the defensive end.

Granted, there is the occasional error (see Kolo in Munich last year), and Cygan no matter how many goals he scores never instills that much confidence, but I'm ok with how the defense is playing right now. In our last 5 matches we have given up just 2 goals, since the start of the season we have surrendered 6 goals in 9 matches, 4 shutouts and only more then 1 goal once.

[billyho96]

This isn't about trolling guys. It is a genuine question. Most people forget one important aspect in planning, "Self criticism".

Chelsea spent almost all summer chasing Essien to strengthen their midfield, Arsenal sold Vieira and never bothered to replace him. What they should actually do was to keep Vieira and add someone else like Diop to the team.
Chelsea had Drogba and still brought back Crespo from Milan, Arsenal simply ignored an opportunity to sign Owen because they had Henry. Ramble about Roman and his money now, but that is not the point.

No doubt, Chelsea have good keepers with solid defense, to protect the defense they have Makelele and now Essien, still all players are supposed to help the defense.

Here is the question, if Chelsea with their strong squad play 4-3-3, depending on a lone striker. What does Wenger really expect when he continues to play his all attacking formation which to Zani looks like 0-0-10? Yes, Campbell and Cygan will score but does Lehmann get enough protection?

to attempt to answer this questions seriously.

1. Selling Vieira was a tremendous mistake, IMHO, its not a popular opinion, but its shared by more than a few. Especially when you consider Henry is a once in generation player that would be first choice everytime out for any club in Europe, Arsenal should have spent, even if temporarily out of their means to keep these players as we have about a 2 to 3 year window of the best of Henry left, and we have seen over the last several years that he is getting more injury prone after a Ripken like playing stretch.

2. We should have gotten owen. He might not fit our system, he's a bit of a poucher and we have Pires and Freddie for that. We made a run at Robinho and Baptista and unlike Barca's run a Beckham three years ago, I think we were serious and close.

3. I have loved to have seen
Lehmann
Lauren Toure Campbell Cole
Freddie Vieira Gilberto Reyes
Henry and Owen

Subs: Cesc, Hleb, Pires, Sendoras, Bergkamp, Van Persie, and Clichy

this is a team with comparable depth to Chelsea, but it didn't happen.

Gilberto or Vieira would have missed time and Cesc could have gotten experience filling in. Same story with Hleb.

If the worse came to worse and Henry doesn't resign, I believe reyes has a chance to step up. He's not scored a lot of goals, but he doesn't take PK and free kicks, which are usually good for 5-8 goals a year for the taker.

Last year at Highbury we played a 2-2 draw to Chelsea and were unlucky not to win, we led on two different occasions. Difference in the game was in the Center of the park, with Cesc and Flamini getting bossed by a stronger more physically mature side. Gilberto lacks the touch of Paddy but has a real guil about him and a bit of a dirty side, which is needed at the highest level.

I see Hleb turning into a Vieira type player if could get a little better on the tackle and more time in the team to develop his passing lines

with what we have, I expect the back four to be stronger in Europe because having played together more. The two goals we gave up were flukes. No one has picked us apart at the back the way teams have in the past.

I see
Lehmann
Lauren Toure Campbell Cole
Ljunberg Hleb Gilberto Pires
Henry and Reyes

being tough if all are healthy and we make it to the knockout round

see Zani, I tried to respond


Vieira and Gilberto could have stayed back more and the attack still have been feriocous.

[yossarian]

Last year at Highbury we played a 2-2 draw to Chelsea and were unlucky not to win, we led on two different occasions. Difference in the game was in the Center of the park, with Cesc and Flamini getting bossed by a stronger more physically mature side. Gilberto lacks the touch of Paddy but has a real guil about him and a bit of a dirty side, which is needed at the highest level.

I really disagree that Cesc and Flamini got "bossed" in that match. Both of Chelsea's goals were off of set pieces, IIRC. Now, if you mean that having Vieira and Gilberto's height on those set pieces would've been helpful to us and possibly prevented the goals.....I might agree. But I don't think Cesc and Flamini got "bossed" in open play at all that day.


I see Hleb turning into a Vieira type player if could get a little better on the tackle and more time in the team to develop his passing.


I seriously doubt Hleb will ever be a Vieira type player....they're apples and oranges...so to speak. Hleb would not have to get a "little" better in the tackle...he'd have to get a lot better. I just don't think he'll ever be anything like Vieira. If we wanted a Vieira like player we should've gone after Essien and/or Diarra harder (at all).

[jwaldman11]

I really disagree that Cesc and Flamini got "bossed" in that match. Both of Chelsea's goals were off of set pieces, IIRC. Now, if you mean that having Vieira and Gilberto's height on those set pieces would've been helpful to us and possibly prevented the goals.....I might agree. But I don't think Cesc and Flamini got "bossed" in open play at all that day.
Yeah, that was the "Henry 2 Set Pieces 2" game, and Cesc and Flamini really acquitted themselves quite well. For all the youth and inexperience, they never looked out of place and never looked like they couldn't handle Chelsea's more experienced/expensive midfield. Honestly, that, for a lot of people, was when we looked at those two and thought that the future was starting to look a lot brighter.

I seriously doubt Hleb will ever be a Vieira type player....they're apples and oranges...so to speak. Hleb would not have to get a "little" better in the tackle...he'd have to get a lot better. I just don't think he'll ever be anything like Vieira. If we wanted a Vieira like player we should've gone after Essien and/or Diarra harder (at all).
We didn't get Hleb to be a Vieira replacement, and it would be totally asinine to try and make him into one. He operates best going forward, which, while Vieira was good at it, wasn't quite his strong point. Hleb is much more of a creative force, whereas Vieira is more of a defensive force. Telling him that he has to take on more defensive responsibilities would, in my opinion, completely change his game and make him less valuable to us.

As far as a Vieira replacement goes, I think it's a mistake to keep looking at players on the squad now and go "Well, he can be a Vieira replacement". Every player currently on the squad plays a different game, and none of them play the same style as Vieira. Trying to get any of them to change is a disaster in the making, because you're forcing the player to be something he's not. We have to adapt to playing a different game with him out of the lineup now, just as we did whenever he was hurt. Once the January transfer window opens, maybe we can take a shot at someone, but keep in mind that, with Chelsea out there, any of the big names we might be looking at, they probably are also looking at. This might take a buy like the original Vieira buy, where Wenger sees something in a player that not many others do. In other words, those looking for an immediate Vieira replacement might not get what they want.

[Dooglas]

vieras role at juve is actually attacking more, and hes got 3 in 5, not bad, we dont have height anywhere on the pitch for set pieces, and we play so much different without viera, see how many balls we popped over the top against birmingham, i love cesc and flamini together, cesc and gilberto, im not sure about yet, cesc is defensive in my eyes, yet lauren gets forward more than gilberto in some cases, this shouldnt happen. vieras passes made arsenal move and made the defense shaky. but im glad hes gone, while i liked him, cesc and flamini get to start a lot more, and we will be winning the treble soon!

[jwaldman11]

vieras role at juve is actually attacking more, and hes got 3 in 5, not bad, we dont have height anywhere on the pitch for set pieces, and we play so much different without viera, see how many balls we popped over the top against birmingham, i love cesc and flamini together, cesc and gilberto, im not sure about yet, cesc is defensive in my eyes, yet lauren gets forward more than gilberto in some cases, this shouldnt happen. vieras passes made arsenal move and made the defense shaky. but im glad hes gone, while i liked him, cesc and flamini get to start a lot more, and we will be winning the treble soon!
Ummm...did you miss Sol's two goals against Everton? You know, headers from set pieces?

[yossarian]

vieras role at juve is actually attacking more, and hes got 3 in 5, not bad, we dont have height anywhere on the pitch for set pieces, and we play so much different without viera, see how many balls we popped over the top against birmingham, i love cesc and flamini together, cesc and gilberto, im not sure about yet, cesc is defensive in my eyes, yet lauren gets forward more than gilberto in some cases, this shouldnt happen. vieras passes made arsenal move and made the defense shaky. but im glad hes gone, while i liked him, cesc and flamini get to start a lot more, and we will be winning the treble soon!

Cesc is much less defensive than Vieira was for Arsenal. If anywhere, that's where his game needs improvement.

Lauren gets forward more than Gilberto purposefully. Part of Arsenal's attack has always been over-lapping runs from Lauren and Cole on the wings. When that happens...you need Gilberto to stay back and...as they say in London..."mind the gaps."

[ZANI]

I see
Lehmann
Lauren Toure Campbell Cole
Ljunberg Hleb Gilberto Pires
Henry and Reyes.

Who is to help the back 4 there, if Gilberto is your Makelele? Who are your Essien and Lampard (Defensive/attacking midfielders)?

With that line up, you are in trouble playing any team that will attack you, particularly Manchester United and CL games.

You could have done better with this one:

-------Lehmann
Lauren-- Toure--Campbell--- Cole

Diop----- Vieira-------- Gilberto

Ljunberg--------------- Pires

------------Henry

Reyes, Van Persie, Hleb, Sendoros, Alumnia etc

Henry would have signed extension and you wouldn't be 7th in the table now.

[Dave_M]

Chelsea with their strong squad play 4-3-3

Last game I saw them play (against Liverpool) it looked a lot like 4-5-1 to be but ho hum, I guess you could call it 4-3-2-1 at a push. A big push mind you.

[The Grimster]

If Chelsea with their strong squad play 4-3-3, depending on a lone striker?
Zani - is there no end to your lack of knowledge? How can 4-3-3 mean you play with a lone striker. That formation is 4-5-1! (The clue is in the 1)

[ZANI]

Zani - is there no end to your lack of knowledge? How can 4-3-3 mean you play with a lone striker. That formation is 4-5-1! (The clue is in the 1)
They mostly play 4-5-1 but on the screen they show 4-3-3. the bottom line is they play with one striker. I would love to see Crespo and Drogba upfront but Mourinho has a better idea that gave him a 8-0-0 record so far.

[The Grimster]

They mostly play 4-5-1 but on the screen they show 4-3-3. the bottom line is they play with one striker. I would love to see Crespo and Drogba upfront but Mourinho has a better idea that gave him a 8-0-0 record so far.Give Ferguson or Wenger £300 million and you will not only have a perfect record - they will do it in style - and with class!

Jose - sorry mate, no respect! Any monkey could do what you've done!

[billyho96]

They mostly play 4-5-1 but on the screen they show 4-3-3. .


you know what the difference between the above formations....the score

if you win and knock a couple in, its 4-3-3, if you struggle to score its called a 4-5-1

When talk about Hleb taking Vieira spot, what I mean is..........well there are fundamentally 3 spots for infield players: defenders, midfielders, and forwards (duh) he's not the first or the last so he's always gonna be a midfielder and I don't think any of us sees him on either wing so that only leaves one of two spot.......the central midfield and one of those was Vieira's.

So if you are gonna talk about building the team for the future, running Arsene's system with the unbeaten years line-up the ideal. Then your midfield by comparision for discussion purposes is gonna be Vieira's spot or Edu/Gilberto's spot.

Since Gilberto is currently still there, I was putting Hleb in Vieira's spot because it was the one available without having to remake the entire organization of a team 1 year removed from being unbeaten.

see what I mean

[billyho96]

Yeah, that was the "Henry 2 Set Pieces 2" game, and Cesc and Flamini really acquitted themselves quite well. For all the youth and inexperience, they never looked out of place and never looked like they couldn't handle Chelsea's more experienced/expensive midfield. Honestly, that, for a lot of people, was when we looked at those two and thought that the future was starting to look a lot brighter.



I totally disagree. Chelsea bossed that game. Arsenal had no real build up and created few good chances. We scored a quick opener from a quick Reyes to Henry, the other goal was just a cheeky quick kick from Henry. I thought we lost the ball in the center of the park alot. And certainly didn't win a lot of one on one there

Cesc/Flamini certainly didn't embrass themselves, but they certainly were not Vieira and Gilberto/Edu (thereinafter call "Edberto")

[ZANI]

Give Ferguson or Wenger £300 million and you will not only have a perfect record - they will do it in style - and with class!

Jose - sorry mate, no respect! Any monkey could do what you've done! That is silly. Real have the galacticos and they haven't won sh!t, since they fired Del Boscue and retired Hiero. Ranieri had Roman's money, he didn't win even Curling Cup.
The point here, is Chelsea have the money and good squad but still are playing defensive game, what is Wenger depending on, playing attacking football with no good defense? That is what Real Madrid do, at least they have Casillas between the sticks.

[Miles Brasher]

I totally disagree. Chelsea bossed that game. Arsenal had no real build up and created few good chances. We scored a quick opener from a quick Reyes to Henry, the other goal was just a cheeky quick kick from Henry. I thought we lost the ball in the center of the park alot. And certainly didn't win a lot of one on one there

Cesc/Flamini certainly didn't embrass themselves, but they certainly were not Vieira and Gilberto/Edu (thereinafter call "Edberto")

There was very little between the sides IMO. And we had a great chance to win it, but the draw was the fair result. Flamini and Cesc were certainly equal to Chelsea in the that game IMO...

[Bighorn]

A good thread.... and to think I almost ignored it because Zani started it.

[Cannon]

Give Ferguson or Wenger £300 million and you will not only have a perfect record - they will do it in style - and with class!

Jose - sorry mate, no respect! Any monkey could do what you've done!

Got to agree with Zani a bit here (Who'd think I'd ever say that :o )

Jose deserves some respect because he at least knew how to buy good players with an upside that fit his system and not waste the cash like Real Madrid have done the last few years. Other than that of course, give Wenger a few hundred million to spend over a few years and Arsenal would walk away with the title, FA Cup every year and might finally get over the CL hump (luck matters too much there to say we'd get it beyond a doubt). We certainly wouldn't be sitting back in a 4-5-1 most games and saying things like "we didn't want to attack" like Jose does. :rolleyes:

[deaner1971]

That is silly. Real have the galacticos and they haven't won sh!t, since they fired Del Boscue and retired Hiero. Ranieri had Roman's money, he didn't win even Curling Cup.
The point here, is Chelsea have the money and good squad but still are playing defensive game, what is Wenger depending on, playing attacking football with no good defense? That is what Real Madrid do, at least they have Casillas between the sticks.

If Ranieri was the problem, as you ascert, why has there been an additional 100 million pounds in signings? Roman had already spent 100 million pounds before the 03-04 season so, it wasn't as if the team Mourinho inherited was below par in salary. He clearly knew that Mourinho in and of himself was not sufficient to win the League.

I would argue that there is actually a lack of confidence in Mourinho. If not, why the need to double the salary of the other clubs to ensure victory? If Mourinho is brilliant, why not just give him a club equal in talent in pay to the best of the Premiership and let his brilliance carry the day?

If Mourinho is the brilliant mind he alledged to be, why was a side of Terry, Lampard, Cole, Makelele, Crespo, Cudicini, et al insufficient to get him ove the top?

The mentality that leads Mourinho to believe himself a genius because he wins with 200 million pounds of talent is the same mentality that leads fat middle-aged men to feel more attractive behind the wheel of a Ferrari.