Youth DOGSO-H

[wwdudley]

In a U14 game this weekend there was a clear DOGSO by handling by one of the players. He was standing on the goal line during a scramble in the box, shot got off, he stuck his hand out and knocked it away. After my blink of surprise, I blew the whistle, called him over and showed him the red card. The player was crushed, clearly had no idea it was a red card offense. Apparently his coach didn't either as I had to explain it to him after the game.

I received a call from the league president that night to ask about the situation, as the coach had called him as soon as he got home. I told him what happened, and he then told me I had the option to just give a yellow in such a situation. He did support my call and didn't rescind the decision for the coach, but it was clear he thought I shouldn't have shown the red.

Now, if this were younger players just getting a handle on the game I wouldn't have shown a card, just awarded the PK and explained that the action was a red card offense. However, these players are old enough and skilled enough that I feel they need to start learning the real consequences of their actions.

I never received (and couldn't find on their website) any policy giving us discretion to downgrade what would normally be a mandatory red to a yellow. Do any other youth leagues have official policies for this kind of situation?

[Ref Flunkie]

In a U14 game this weekend there was a clear DOGSO by handling by one of the players. He was standing on the goal line during a scramble in the box, shot got off, he stuck his hand out and knocked it away. After my blink of surprise, I blew the whistle, called him over and showed him the red card. The player was crushed, clearly had no idea it was a red card offense. Apparently his coach didn't either as I had to explain it to him after the game.

I received a call from the league president that night to ask about the situation, as the coach had called him as soon as he got home. I told him what happened, and he then told me I had the option to just give a yellow in such a situation. He did support my call and didn't rescind the decision for the coach, but it was clear he thought I shouldn't have shown the red.

Now, if this were younger players just getting a handle on the game I wouldn't have shown a card, just awarded the PK and explained that the action was a red card offense. However, these players are old enough and skilled enough that I feel they need to start learning the real consequences of their actions.

I never received (and couldn't find on their website) any policy giving us discretion to downgrade what would normally be a mandatory red to a yellow. Do any other youth leagues have official policies for this kind of situation?


I think the president is full of BS. Tell him to point out WHERE in the league rules it addresses this. If it is spelled out in black and white, I guess you then have the option to use a yellow. However, this was a CLEAR case of DOGSO, and U-14 players should definitely know better (unless this was just a "play for fun" rec/house league, then I may give them some slack). Ignorance of the rules of soccer is not an excuse. I'm with you 100% on showing the red...the kids need to grow up and learn the real rules of soccer and not the "I don't want to make any kid feel bad" rules.

[PirateJohn]

The rules are clear. Not only did you make the right call, but if you had not shown the red you would have been in direct violation of the rules. The league president needs to educate himself.

[billf]

You did the right thing. You have no wiggle room here and the league has no right to modify this portion of the law. Unfortunately, this is an area of the law where the cynicism of professional players has resulted in a rather draconian response being inserted into the laws. At u14 a player should have a better understanding of the laws as well.

[Wreave]

What level of game? Rec vs classic (or select or elite or whatever your area calls it).

You state the player was "crushed". Why, do you think? Was it because he thought he could turn a sure goal into a PK and get away with it? Or because he made a mental error and didn't expect to get sent off?

You probably wouldn't find any kind of written policy on this. Both a red, as well as a yellow for USB, are supportable. I certainly don't think you erred with the red, especially at U14. U12 rec, I would probably have gone yellow. U12 classic, red. U14 rec, toss-up. U16 rec, red.

I frankly think the league president handled it well. In the rec league for which I'm ref administrator, if a ref sent off a U14 player for DOGSO-H, I'd probably have to make that same call, with the same message - the red was OK, but a yellow would probably have been better. However, YHTBT. If the player did it on purpose and thought he could get away with it, that's a lesson he'll remember. If the player had a mental error, well, he'll still remember the lesson, but a yellow would probably have sent the same message.

[JohnR]

What level of game? Rec vs classic (or select or elite or whatever your area calls it).

Yes, I wonder that too.

[wwdudley]

What level of game? Rec vs classic (or select or elite or whatever your area calls it).

You state the player was "crushed". Why, do you think? Was it because he thought he could turn a sure goal into a PK and get away with it? Or because he made a mental error and didn't expect to get sent off?

This is a rec league, not select. The thought of a yellow for USB flashed through my head, but I didn't think I could support that as it was clearly intentional handling and clearly DOGSO. I think it was a mental error, not a case of trying to get away with something. I'm sure the crushed look on his face was purely from being sent off and unable to play the next game.

This is my first season as a ref - I've been coaching my boys for the 4+ years since they started playing. I took the ref certification course so I would be able to teach them the laws correctly, as my oldest is now U10 and I feel like they need to have a good handle on them. My feeling as a coach has always been the game is the ref's to call, and if I taught my kids wrong that was my fault.

I have sent a request to the league asking for a written copy of their guidelines, as I have been unable to locate them online. It remains to be seen if I will get anything back.

Thanks for the replies so far!

[Ref Flunkie]

Welllllllllllllll since it was rec league and it was a mental blunder more then anything (still probably had to be there to see exactly what he did), it would be a bit more of a debate for me then to show the yellow or red. In the end, it isn't like you are banning the kid for life from soccer. So he has to sit out a game. Still, I can not see how you could say "you were wrong" for showing a red.

[macheath]

This is a rec league, not select. (snip)... I'm sure the crushed look on his face was purely from being sent off and unable to play the next game.
(snip)...!

Well, the player will never do it again. So he learned something. I agree with the call from your description.

[Wreave]

U14 rec, mental error, you could have shown the yellow. You chose the red, no big deal. Play on.

You very likely won't get a set of written guidelines that would state something like this. It's just the kind of thing you have to figure out on your own. Like I said, I would want the refs in our rec league to go yellow for something like this instead of red, but you wont' find that in writing anywhere. Not that we're afraid to write it down, just that we're aware most people don't even bother to read minituae like that, much less retain it.

Obviously, the red was not a bad decision. As long as you didn't get chewed out or anything, it seems to have been handled well. As you stated, the league pres didn't say "you were wrong", he just made it clear he would have preferred a yellow, and I understand that, and it seems like you do too.

[JohnR]

Rec league, that's tough alright.

Far as I can tell the etiquette for competitive is yellow up until about U10, then red after that. For rec the ages would certainly be pushed up ... but as an outsider to the scene I sure as heck wouldn't know whether to do red or yellow at U14. Now you know.

[Red Star]

Dudley, you made the correct call. There is no basis for issuing a yellow in that situation. The kid left you no choice, easiest call in the world.

[wwdudley]

You very likely won't get a set of written guidelines that would state something like this. It's just the kind of thing you have to figure out on your own. Like I said, I would want the refs in our rec league to go yellow for something like this instead of red, but you wont' find that in writing anywhere. Not that we're afraid to write it down, just that we're aware most people don't even bother to read minituae like that, much less retain it.

Far as I can tell the etiquette for competitive is yellow up until about U10, then red after that. For rec the ages would certainly be pushed up ...

Thanks, this is what I was really curious about - whether other youth leagues write this type of thing down. I suspect this league does not have a written policy either so it will be "learn as you go".

[billf]

Thanks, this is what I was really curious about - whether other youth leagues write this type of thing down. I suspect this league does not have a written policy either so it will be "learn as you go".

They can't have a policy on this. If they did, its telling you to ignore the laws of the game. Can you point to a place in the laws where Fifa allows leagues to modify law 12 for youth players? There really is no choice here as sad as that sounds. I know the human element says otherwise and I may be detached from the days where I'd work less competitive youth games but the laws are pretty clear here. You either call it, show red, and restart with a pk or you ignore it as not delibrate and do nothing.

[Beaker67]

The problem here is, you can't get into the mind of a 13 year-old player to know intent and his/her level of knowledge of the LOTG, so you have to do what the Laws instruct. Some at the Rec level are sophisticated enough to play with the kind of intent that DOGSO was intended to deal with.

At some point they have to learn, and I think 13 is old enough. U12, fine, no send off but a stiff education in DOGSO for the keeper and everyone else. Sounds harsh, but teaching players to play within the Laws of the Game is something that we can't put off. The card can be administered in a way that enforces the Laws as they are written but which educates and nutures younger players as well.
It's tough, and I think we've all been in that situation at one point or another.
Makes you feel as if you've kicked a dog, though, doesn't it?

[Gary V]

I had a U14G game this weekend between a (Red) team from an established rec organization vs a team (Purple) from a one-year-old association. The established team had some good soccer players; the new team had some very good athletes who with more experience will become excellent soccer players.

There were several one-on-keeper breakaways for Red, where a Purple player is dashing madly into the PA to intercept. I kept thinking, "Do it right, don't foul, I don't want to have to send you off." Fortunately no problems, but if there was a DOGSO foul I would have shown the red. I would have done it as calmly as possible, perhaps calling the coach onto the field to explain my call as it was being made.

I agree, there's no need for cards in a U10 game except for out and out fighting or violence. But by the time they get to U14, or when they choose to enter the select/travel leagues, it's time for them to learn the Laws correctly.

[refontherun]

I may be rough, but I think you need to enforce the LOTG just as you enforce the constitutional laws. The laws you learn on the pitch will help you obey the laws of life. Getting a one or two game suspension on the soccer field is better than getting 5-10 for something on the streets.

Kids will learn from their mistakes and learn to respect the laws, whether on the pitch or off. U-10, DOGSO, sorry, red card. Discreetly of course. We've discussed this before.

[ref47]

i had a similar situation a few years back. u13 travel. a girl on the goalline, not the keeper, bends down to clear a shot on goal with her hand. scoops it away from the goal. whistle, rc, point to spot. i get both coaches arguing that the rc was improper. after things calm i gather ball and place it on the mark. look around and only the attacking team is on the field. the coach has pulled his players from the field. he says, "if those are the rules, we are not going to play."

i talked to some more experienced refs later. they mostly said that a yc would have been enough, though they all agreed that a rc was the "book" call.

i think that, with a few more years experience (and lots more formal training), i apply the spirit of the game more to the younger kids. keep them on the field. explain what they did to violate the law. but keep the really harsh realities of the game for older players.

[Ref Flunkie]

i had a similar situation a few years back. u13 travel. a girl on the goalline, not the keeper, bends down to clear a shot on goal with her hand. scoops it away from the goal. whistle, rc, point to spot. i get both coaches arguing that the rc was improper. after things calm i gather ball and place it on the mark. look around and only the attacking team is on the field. the coach has pulled his players from the field. he says, "if those are the rules, we are not going to play."

i talked to some more experienced refs later. they mostly said that a yc would have been enough, though they all agreed that a rc was the "book" call.

i think that, with a few more years experience (and lots more formal training), i apply the spirit of the game more to the younger kids. keep them on the field. explain what they did to violate the law. but keep the really harsh realities of the game for older players.


Unbelievable. A U-13 TRAVEL team got upset at this?! If I was the opposing coach, I would be screaming bloody murder if you DIDN'T RC the defender. There is a reason kids play travel...for the higher level of competition. Honestly, society has become way too "I don't want to hurt the kid's feelings" in matters of competition and evaluation.

[Wreave]

I may be rough, but I think you need to enforce the LOTG just as you enforce the constitutional laws. The laws you learn on the pitch will help you obey the laws of life. Getting a one or two game suspension on the soccer field is better than getting 5-10 for something on the streets.

Kids will learn from their mistakes and learn to respect the laws, whether on the pitch or off. U-10, DOGSO, sorry, red card. Discreetly of course. We've discussed this before.

You would RC a 9-year old for DOGSO? Seriously?

Are you just saying that, or do you actually ref youth soccer games on a regular basis?

I would suggest that smacking a young player with a red would only breed distrust for authority and foster the belief that the rules are not fair. I'd rather teach him that those in place to enforce the rules do so with intelligence and benevolence, not looking through blinders. It's the ones who learn that the law is an enemy whom you'll want to avoid in a dark alley in ten years.