OK, so again, how would YOU make a World Club Championshiop?

[AFCA]

Originally posted by Guinho
Should we point out AGAIN that DCU beat Vasco da Gama in the Interamerican Cup shortly after Vasco lost the Toyota Cup (to Real Madrid, I think). Properly, Real Madrid should have at least played DCU before trumpeting itself.

One of the two Mexican sides that have come into the Cope America has made it to the final (once) or semis (twice). I'd say that says that at least the concacaf teams are capable of challenging.

Furthermore, as has been pointed out before, the only time the European squads actually took to the pitch to settle the matter, they did not fare so well.

I'd say the case (entirely on the pitch) that it's not such a big gap between the big Euro squads and the other continental champions is stronger than the argument (almost entirely on paper). The sports played on grass, not paper!

G.

Maybe something worthwhile might come from Africa. Maybe... other than that it's just Europe and S.A. Surely there are other continental champions that might sneak a win sometimes. But in an all out confrontation I'd say 19 out of 20 times it will be a European or South American team to win.

Trust me on that one.

[Jayhawk]

Originally posted by mr magoo
Britain England and united kingdom are all diffrent things.

Britain is the island that makes up England, Scotland and Wales.

United Kingdom is all of the above including Northen Ireland.

British Isles is all 5 countries. England, Scotland, Wales, Eire and Northen Ireland
I've said it before to much ridicule, but I'll say it again. Merging England and Scotland (and Wales and N.I. too, what the hell) would not be a bad idea. Yes it would fly in the face of more than a century of tradition and would be culturally and politically hazardous, but times change and it is ridiculous to have 3 leagues on that one island. If nothing else, because the Old Firm clubs deserve a chance to compete against the Man Uniteds and Arsenals, and also it would disabuse all concerned of the notion that the Scottish Premiership is really a top-flight league.

[RichardL]

The Welsh league didn't exist until a few years ago. The biggest club in that league pulls in about 300 people. The N.Ireland league fares better, but even the biggest club there, financially at least, would struggle to get out of the conference. Similarly in Scotland, from a financial point of view, only the Old firm, Hearts, Hibs & Aberdeen would have any chance of surviving as anything more than lower division clubs. Such a merger wouldn't benefit the English league that much and would completely destroy the other country's clubs.

[Jayhawk]

Originally posted by RichardL
Such a merger wouldn't benefit the English league that much and would completely destroy the other country's clubs.
True enough, and that would be sad, no doubt. But creative destruction is at the heart of the economic improvement of any industry. Here in the states, sports fans criticise the major sports leagues for overexpansion, and they are right. But those leagues now have 30-32 clubs in a nation of 280 million. To have 92 fully professional clubs in a nation the size of England, let alone Scotland, is overcrowding the market. It would not be a bad thing, in my opinion, to have some of the smaller, less stable clubs merge with one another would help alleviate the financial crises that many of them are enduring now. Granted, I was not raised on English football, and this may sound ludicrous (sp?) to someone who was, but perhaps a bit of crass American capitalism is exactly what English and Scottish football need right now. They certainly sound desperate, according to the news reports of club near-bankruptcies.

[Prenn]

Originally posted by Jayhawk
True enough, and that would be sad, no doubt. But creative destruction is at the heart of the economic improvement of any industry. Here in the states, sports fans criticise the major sports leagues for overexpansion, and they are right. But those leagues now have 30-32 clubs in a nation of 280 million. To have 92 fully professional clubs in a nation the size of England, let alone Scotland, is overcrowding the market. It would not be a bad thing, in my opinion, to have some of the smaller, less stable clubs merge with one another would help alleviate the financial crises that many of them are enduring now. Granted, I was not raised on English football, and this may sound ludicrous (sp?) to someone who was, but perhaps a bit of crass American capitalism is exactly what English and Scottish football need right now. They certainly sound desperate, according to the news reports of club near-bankruptcies.

Let me put it this way, you wouldn't have much chance of walking away if you suggested this idea to fans of 3rd division clubs.

The small clubs are just as important to the league as Man Utd and Arsenal, if you remember this then you'll be fine :D

[comme]

Originally posted by RichardL
The Welsh league didn't exist until a few years ago. The biggest club in that league pulls in about 300 people.

Barry town are professional, and beat Porto 3-0 this season (admittedly they lost the first leg 8-0).

As for merging all the FAs, they wouldn't go for it, we have 4 votes at the moment, we'd have to keep 4 for there to be any chance.

[RichardL]

Originally posted by Jayhawk
True enough, and that would be sad, no doubt. But creative destruction is at the heart of the economic improvement of any industry. Here in the states, sports fans criticise the major sports leagues for overexpansion, and they are right. But those leagues now have 30-32 clubs in a nation of 280 million. To have 92 fully professional clubs in a nation the size of England, let alone Scotland, is overcrowding the market. It would not be a bad thing, in my opinion, to have some of the smaller, less stable clubs merge with one another would help alleviate the financial crises that many of them are enduring now. Granted, I was not raised on English football, and this may sound ludicrous (sp?) to someone who was, but perhaps a bit of crass American capitalism is exactly what English and Scottish football need right now. They certainly sound desperate, according to the news reports of club near-bankruptcies.

Take the NFL TV deal and imagine the TV companies saying "sorry, we can't afford this, so starting immediately TV money will now be 90% lower than currently". See how many NFL clubs will be financially stable after that.

There is also no correlation between the size of the clubs and their financial viability. Clubs aren't in trouble because they aren't pulling in enough customers, it's normally because they've overspent on ground improvements or spend a large sum on players, gambling on getting success to pay for it - quite often both.
As much as lazy, premiership obsessed, sports columnists like to think that supporters in smaller towns are increasingly drifting to supporting premiership clubs rather than their local teams (and so making "rationalising" the league a sensible option) the facts just don't back the theory up. It it was true then football outside the premiership would be being watched by dwindling crowds, when actually crowds are at their highest level, in all divisions, for nearly 30 years.

[GersMan]

So have any details come out on FIFA's 2005 announcement? Beyond the fact they say they will have it, I haven't seen anything.

I think the only way you can have this is if it is in Europe every time,and in July, or whenever the preseason is for European clubs. These clubs can use it as preseason training. You could have the previous two European Cup winners and two other Euro clubs (maybe the UEFA Cup winners) each host a group of games. The groups would each include a South American club (Libertadores winner and runnersup from two previous seasons) and one each from CONCACAF, Asia, Africa and Oceania, and those feds can figure out which one gets to play (playoff between two club fed champions maybe).

So that's four groups of 3, matches total played in each group at the home team's stadium. Then have the semis played at one of those sites as a double header, followed two or three days later by the championship. you could play it in 9 days. It would be right in the middle of preseason build up for the Euro clubs so they have nothing to complain about, and It's a short European tour for the South American clubs so they shouldn't object. The other feds should jump at the chance to even be involved with such big clubs. Of course the others will take it more seriously than the Euros and SA clubs, but you'll have the event, and perhaps over time it will become a bigger deal. If the others won't agree to it being in Europe, it will never happen.

If you'd had it this year, it would have been

Group1 Real Madrid, Sao Cetano, Pachuca
Group 2 Bayern Munich,, Olimpia Wollogong Wolves
Group 3 Liverpool ,Cruz Azul, Suwun Bluewings
Group 4 Feyenoord, Boca Juniors, Al Ahly

[beachesl]

Have the 4 "other" confederations top clubs play each other in a single game (like the defunct Afro-Asia Cup), perhaps at a neutral site in a place like Dubai or Seoul. Then have a single "semi" in Europe and SA with the winners challenging the Liberatores and Champions League winners respectively. Then have a true World Championship in Toyotaland or elsewhere. If one of the SA or Euro teams lose a semi, there region has to play the initial qualifying round the next year (no argument). The formula is self-ammending.

This simple formula would prevent match congestion, and the single ties would be great money makers for everyone!

[GersMan]

Originally posted by beachesl
Have the 4 "other" confederations top clubs play each other in a single game (like the defunct Afro-Asia Cup), perhaps at a neutral site in a place like Dubai or Seoul. Then have a single "semi" in Europe and SA with the winners challenging the Liberatores and Champions League winners respectively. Then have a true World Championship in Toyotaland or elsewhere. If one of the SA or Euro teams lose a semi, there region has to play the initial qualifying round the next year (no argument). The formula is self-ammending.

This simple formula would prevent match congestion, and the single ties would be great money makers for everyone!

Who is going to make money on the Galaxy vs. Wollogang Wolves in Seoul? Or Zamalek vs Samsun Bluewings in Dubai?

[Guinho]

Originally posted by AFCA
Maybe something worthwhile might come from Africa. Maybe... other than that it's just Europe and S.A. Surely there are other continental champions that might sneak a win sometimes. But in an all out confrontation I'd say 19 out of 20 times it will be a European or South American team to win.

Trust me on that one.

Yeah, that's what people said when they were predicting an Argentina - France WC final too. Maybe "they didn't want to play" either. Until European and South American club teams start to post real results, I am going to be unconvinced the gap is so huge. A real competition would be far more competitive than most here realize. Since there's never really been one, everthing has been on paper, but what results we do have in the last 7 years or so are not flattering to the powerhouses of the world. If the Euro and SA squads don't come to play, then others will be the football champions, and the Euro squads will be the champion whiners the way they are now.

Two words:

Prove it.

G.

[RichardL]

Originally posted by Guinho
what results we do have in the last 7 years or so are not flattering to the powerhouses of the world.
what results do we have over the past 7 years? A few defeats in friendlies v MLS teams? If you go by results in friendlies then the lower divisions in England aren't far away from the standard of the premeirship.

As for the challenge of "prove it" you missing the point of why Euro and SA clubs aren't interested in a world club championship against teams from other confederations. It's not down to thinking the other confederations aren't good enough, more that there isn't the desire for the competition in the first place. If the current Toyota cup was truly regarded as the world championship by Europe and S.America then it would be a much bigger deal than the one-off glorified friendly that it is now.

[AFCA]

Originally posted by Guinho
Yeah, that's what people said when they were predicting an Argentina - France WC final too. Maybe "they didn't want to play" either. Until European and South American club teams start to post real results, I am going to be unconvinced the gap is so huge. A real competition would be far more competitive than most here realize. Since there's never really been one, everthing has been on paper, but what results we do have in the last 7 years or so are not flattering to the powerhouses of the world. If the Euro and SA squads don't come to play, then others will be the football champions, and the Euro squads will be the champion whiners the way they are now.

Two words:

Prove it.

G.

No need to. No intrest. But why don't MLS and Africa and Asia start up their own cup? Good luck.

[Guinho]

Originally posted by RichardL

It's not down to thinking the other confederations aren't good enough, more that there isn't the desire for the competition in the first place. If the current Toyota cup was truly regarded as the world championship by Europe and S.America then it would be a much bigger deal than the one-off glorified friendly that it is now.

So in other words, the issue is that the Europeans are just basically parochial? I guess that is hardly shocking news in the football world, but it does make a certain amount of sense, I suppose.

So then the plan would be to hold the world championships, and if the Europeans can't be bothered to play to win, then someone else will be world champion. Fair enough, I suppose.

In that case, I'd opt for a tournament much like the one held in Brazil:

an annual tournament:
2 berths for Europe and SA, 1 each for Africa, Concacaf, AFC, OFC. 2 groups of 4, #1 from each plays #2, two winners in the final. Total 5 matches tops. It'd take two weeks, to be played in August. The Euro CL will be done with some rest, the SA CL will have wrapped up, the Concacaf and African tournament will have also ended by then I believe. As above, if the Euro squads don't want to come full out and then lose, then they don't get to get world champs. Fine.

G.

[AFCA]

Have fun :D

[Crowdie]

In that case, I'd opt for a tournament much like the one held in Brazil:

an annual tournament:
2 berths for Europe and SA, 1 each for Africa, Concacaf, AFC, OFC. 2 groups of 4, #1 from each plays #2, two winners in the final. Total 5 matches tops. It'd take two weeks, to be played in August. The Euro CL will be done with some rest, the SA CL will have wrapped up, the Concacaf and African tournament will have also ended by then I believe. As above, if the Euro squads don't want to come full out and then lose, then they don't get to get world champs. Fine.


If the prize money was good enough you could easily get two European clubs to the tournament. You wouldn't get a so called "G14" club, and to be really frank they would probably not get into the spirit of the tournament anyway, but lower level clubs are all looking for ways to improve their cash flow.

It is unfair to class all European clubs together, as is commonly done in these forums, as each club has their own priorities and agendas. The media focuses on the larger clubs and generally ignores the smaller clubs. I am sure that the smaller European clubs would be interested in a tournament against clubs from other confederations.

Crowdie.

[Black]

Originally posted by comme
Barry town are professional, and beat Porto 3-0 this season (admittedly they lost the first leg 8-0).

As for merging all the FAs, they wouldn't go for it, we have 4 votes at the moment, we'd have to keep 4 for there to be any chance.

Not quite...
They beat Porto 3-1 after Porto had alredy won 8-0 the first leg (as a consequense I seriously doubt Porto had they're 'A' team on the second leg)... And this was in 2001 by the way in the a qualifying round of the previous Champions league.

[Guinho]

Originally posted by Crowdie

It is unfair to class all European clubs together, as is commonly done in these forums, as each club has their own priorities and agendas. The media focuses on the larger clubs and generally ignores the smaller clubs. I am sure that the smaller European clubs would be interested in a tournament against clubs from other confederations.

Crowdie.

Yes, you are right about that, and I am guiltier than most on that score. Perhaps seeing, say, Chelsea crowned World Champion might be irritating enough to get Man U to join in. As folks have pointed out, Uruguay was still the world champion in 1930, despite the lack of attendance of the English. If the tournament happens and the G14's don't come to play, the winner will still be champion. Man U looked a little ridiculous strutting when Corinthians were the champions.


G.