Why didn’t Japan attack the Soviet union in 1941.?

[aloisius]

And instead choose to attack the USA?

The only minimal chance Japan and Germany had to win the war was if SU was defeated. And that could only happen through a joint attack.


So why didn’t Japan attack in the east instead of the suicidal attack on America?

[Bob Morocco]

And instead choose to attack the USA?

The only minimal chance Japan and Germany had to win the war was if SU was defeated. And that could only happen through a joint attack.


So why didn?t Japan attack in the east instead of the suicidal attack on America?

I believe that until the harsh Russian winter set in it looked like the Germans might take Moscow and keep on going.

[aloisius]

That was a foolish belief. It should have been clear that Germans couldn’t pull it off without a major ally.

[Zenit]

And instead choose to attack the USA?

The only minimal chance Japan and Germany had to win the war was if SU was defeated. And that could only happen through a joint attack.


So why didn’t Japan attack in the east instead of the suicidal attack on America?

Well, I'm pretty sure the @ss-whoopin' put on them by Georgi Zhukov at Khalkhin Gol in 1939 had something to do with it....

[aloisius]

And that made them think they’d have a better chance vs. the USA?

[Toon³]

And instead choose to attack the USA?

The only minimal chance Japan and Germany had to win the war was if SU was defeated. And that could only happen through a joint attack.


So why didn’t Japan attack in the east instead of the suicidal attack on America?

How suicidal was it? If the American carrier group hadn't been out at sea they would have been destroyed at Pearl Harbour. That would have given Japan total control over the entire Pacific.

If the Americans hadn't discovered the Japanese fleet at Midway then the battle may have gone the over way because of superior Japanese numbers.

I for one believe that even if these events had gone Japan's way, America would have still won because of it's industrial might. It would have taken much longer, possibly 5 more years to defeat Japan and also Germany.
History is full of if's and but's. Only a few things needed to be different for the whole war to have a different outcome.

However to you original question. The reason, I think, that they didn't attack the Soviets was because they weren't interested. Their main goals were to conquer as much land in the Pacific area as possible and to maintain this by defeating the Americans and becoming the domminant military force in the Pacific.

[needs]

What would attacking the Soviet Union have accomplished for Japan? It might have helped Germany, but that was way down the list of goal for Japanese militarists.

The main reasons most historians have identified for the Japanese attack relate to the embargo of war materials, especially oil, that the US and Britain had imposed on Japan. The embargo was beginning to severly affect their ability to conduct war and pursue empire. They attacked two particular things in 1941: British colonies with extensive raw materials and the US fleet which was the only thing preventing them from taking those raw materials.

The military leaders were faced with a choice of attacking while they could and gathering war materials or abandoning their imperial pretensions. Attacking the Soviet Union wouldn't have accomplished any of Japan's urgent needs, it only would have overstretched their army to little benefit.

(There's a fascinating historical debate that maybe some others are more familiar with about whether the US hard line after 1935 appreciably strengthened the hand of Japanese militarists, I know it from the Major Problems in the History of American Foreign Relations volume, but those are excerpts).

[nicephoras]

Stalin had gotten assurances from the Japanese before the German attack that Japan would not attack Russia. Because of that he was sending part of those troops to the West to prepare his own preemptive attack against Germany.
needs is correct; the Japanese rulers had far less to gain from trying to attack through horrifically difficult territory than they did from seizing industrial assets in Asia. Siberia, while important to the USSR, is a very inaccessible place, especially to an invader. While it would have helped Germany, it would have taken a truly superhuman effort for Japan to capture the Siberian oilfields, which is what they needed to continue war production. It was, in short, a simple decision of marginal utility.
P.S. Regarding the absence of the carrier group from Pearl Harbor..........there are many that still believe that Roosevelt knew of the attack. And I'm not talking about people like sebcoe. Also, the Japanese strategic command made a horrific mistake of failing to destroy the US strategic oil reserves on Hawaii, which would have done very serious damage to the US ability to do war.
P.P.S. Toon, the discovery of the Japanese fleet at Midway wasn't exactly an accident, you know.

[Toon³]

I know it wasn't an accident but events could have caused them not too.

[nicephoras]

I know it wasn't an accident but events could have caused them not too.

Well, yes.......but that's a bit like saying "the war would have dragged on longer had the nuclear weapon not been invented". That wasn't an accident, so I'd rather not play the auntie/ball/uncle game with non-accidental historical occurences.

[pc4th]

For those interested, there is an anime call Zipang that can be downloaded using bittorrent http://www.animesuki.com/series.php/525.html

Basically, it's a copycat of a Hollywood movie where a Japanese Aegis cruiser travel back in time a day before the battle of Midway. It's pretty good.

[pc4th]

did a quick google to find more about Zipang

Genres: Drama, Historical, Military, Science Fiction, Shounen

Plot Summary: A modern aegis cruiser of the Japanese SDF was on a training mission when a strange storm transports it back in time 60 years to the night before the Battle of Midway in World War 2.


Genres: Historical, Military, Science Fiction

Plot Summary: A modern detachment of the Japan Defense Force finds itself transported back in time to 1942. The JDF force must decide whether or not to change the course of history by involving itself in WWII.

Total Episode: 26 (episode 9 is out right now).

Anyway, back to topic. I believe that Japan didn't attack USSR because of the vast territory that it needs to conquer. And in this vast territory (Siberia for example) there wasn't a lot of resources. If Germany and Japan invaded and won, German would occupy the 'better' half (industrialized western part of Russia) while Japan get stuck with the Siberia part.

Also, I don't think Germany asked for any help on the conquest of the Soviet Union. Hitler obviously thought that he can march right through Moscow and have a few weeks to spare before the onset of winter. Why ask Japan to help when you can have all the glory? And by having Japan invade to the East would send the message to the world that Germany can't do it on its own. That's my theory.

p.s. Glad to have a History Forum. History is one of my favorite subject.

[Coach_McGuirk]

For those interested, there is an anime call Zipang that can be downloaded using bittorrent http://www.animesuki.com/series.php/525.html

Basically, it's a copycat of a Hollywood movie where a Japanese Aegis cruiser travel back in time a day before the battle of Midway. It's pretty good.
There was an American movie made identical to this, released in 1980, with an American carrier finding itself with the chance to stop Pearl Harbor.

The Final Countdown (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0080736/)

[spejic]

How suicidal was it? If the American carrier group hadn't been out at sea they would have been destroyed at Pearl Harbour. That would have given Japan total control over the entire Pacific.For a very limited time. See this article:

http://www.combinedfleet.com/economic.htm

Half way down (at "Strategic Implications") they discuss what would happen if Midway was a total defeat of the Americans instead of the Japanese (close to a scenario where the carriers were caught at Pearl Harbor). It gets bad for the Japanese soon enough.

Really, Japan were in a situation where the Americans had to act a certain way in order for the Japanese to win. And, as is common in human behavior, they thus believed that the Americans will behave that way. I recommend the book Midway: The Battle that Doomed Japan for an exploration of this effect in the Japanese Navy leadership by Japanese navy personel.

[Toon³]

For a very limited time. See this article:

http://www.combinedfleet.com/economic.htm

Half way down (at "Strategic Implications") they discuss what would happen if Midway was a total defeat of the Americans instead of the Japanese (close to a scenario where the carriers were caught at Pearl Harbor). It gets bad for the Japanese soon enough.

Really, Japan were in a situation where the Americans had to act a certain way in order for the Japanese to win. And, as is common in human behavior, they thus believed that the Americans will behave that way. I recommend the book Midway: The Battle that Doomed Japan for an exploration of this effect in the Japanese Navy leadership by Japanese navy personel.

Great link, I'll be sure to look at that book too.

[Karl K]

Also, the Japanese strategic command made a horrific mistake of failing to destroy the US strategic oil reserves on Hawaii, which would have done very serious damage to the US ability to do war.

Apropos of that, the Japanese made a serious mistake of not coming back and continuing the attack throughout the day.

Pearl Harbor was in disarray; Hickham field was destroyed, meaning there would be no air power to meet them.

They should have reloaded and attacked again. IIRC, Genda wanted to do it again, but Nagumo said no.

[nicephoras]

Apropos of that, the Japanese made a serious mistake of not coming back and continuing the attack throughout the day.

Pearl Harbor was in disarray; Hickham field was destroyed, meaning there would be no air power to meet them.

They should have reloaded and attacked again. IIRC, Genda wanted to do it again, but Nagumo said no.

I'm not that up to par on my history of the Pearl Harbor attack, so I'll defer to you on that point. But without targeting the oil reserves, they really wouldn't have done all that much damage to the US war effort by destroying a few more battleships. Once they failed to catch the carriers in the harbor, they failed no matter how much damage they ended up doing.

[DoyleG]

Two reasons

1) Japan needed oil and raw materials quickly and found it would be easier to obtain them by attacking the colonies in Southeast Asia than attacking the Soviets.

2) The Soviet's routed the Japanese in a series of border battles in the 1930's. The Japanese knew that their Army couldn't match the Soviets in open battle.

[Pauncho]

The plan the Japanese went to sea with was for a second attack to take out the repair facilities and refueling facilities, but Nagumo (who was not an aviator and had taken command of the fleet just because of seniority) got very conservative, overruled the plan and his air staff and took what he got out of a first strike.

[topcatcole]

The plan the Japanese went to sea with was for a second attack to take out the repair facilities and refueling facilities, but Nagumo (who was not an aviator and had taken command of the fleet just because of seniority) got very conservative, overruled the plan and his air staff and took what he got out of a first strike.

Actually I think you are referring to the planned third wave that Nagumo overruled. He was concerned that since the carriers had not been found that they were at sea trying to hunt him down, so he took the damage the first two waves inflicted and returned to Japan. Genda was apoplectic when he got back from leading the irst wave and the third wave had been cancelled.

As to the reasons for not attacking the USSR, it was primarily an assessment of risk vs reward as already pointed out. The Japanese could gain access to oil and rubber by forcing the US out of the Western Pacific. In one of the great strategic blunders of all time, they also took the prewar US isolationism as a sign that we would negotiate a peace rather than fight a protracted Pacific war.

Another part of the assessment was military. The USSR was not a naval power and was therefore little threat to the Japanese home islands. The US Navy was roughly the same size and power of the Imperial Japanese Navy and was therefore more of a strategic threat. In addition, Japanese land forces were already heavily engaged in China and would have been stretched too thin to attack into the Soviet landmass.