GRAND THEFT. Fifa takes S. America spot

[pololo]

Originally posted by "Simply Ken"
Alex,

It seems to me that many S.American fans want it both ways. Rafael claims that they 'denounce' such dirty tactics. Yet, the only denounciation I see from them instead is aimed at those who are in fact doing the denounciation! If you don't condone the behavior, then don't.

What I read indicated that you are 'fed up' with those who complain about this sort of thing. I wish, instead, that you would be fed up, not with those who denounce such behavior, but teams that play so dirty.

Two last point.

You claimed there is 'no proof' that the behavior is condoned by S.American fans. I say the proof is found in the fact that this sort of disgusting, dirty, play goes on unabatted. If it was not condoned, it would stop. That proof, BTW, is merely highlighted by the negative reaction here among S.American fans to those who denounce such dirty tactics.

You claim that I paint with it a big brush, taking my frustration on a 'few' and aiming it on the 'many'.

I say that your 'many' are partly to blame as well. They are partly to blame because they are not willing to condemn and punish the dirty play.

But I don't claim the blame is equally distributed. Of course, the practionaires of the dirty play are the ones who should be denounced most -- and are the ones who should be punished most specifically. Yet, the many who fail to stand up to this behavior cannot escape some criticism either.

I understand a player, even an entire team, occasionally losing his/their 'cool' and doing something stupid. It happens everywhere, in every country and region. But when such behavior is repeated, orchestrated, and never really denounced, then the problem is different. Then the problem is treating dirty play as a legitimate tactic!

P.S.

I am not saying that no one in S.America denounces the behavior. I am saying more should, until the behavior changes. Uruguay have a reputation for playing dirty, and they live up to that reputation all the time, even surpassing it in the game against Iran.

I bet those Uruguayan players are not even the starters for the youth team,i can't say more cause i haven't seen that game and i think you didn't either you just believe in eveything that is said on paper and making a big thing of it.

[Rafael Hernandez]

Originally posted by "Simply Ken"

I am not saying that no one in S.America denounces the behavior. I am saying more should, until the behavior changes. Uruguay have a reputation for playing dirty, and they live up to that reputation all the time, even surpassing it in the game against Iran.


Uruguay have a reputation for being dirty because they are more physical and foul a lot. They don't go around kicking people in the head with bicycle kicks and fighting with players outside hotels. Also they don't dive that much.

[Alex_1]

Originally posted by "Simply Ken"
Alex,

It seems to me that many S.American fans want it both ways. Rafael claims that they 'denounce' such dirty tactics. Yet, the only denounciation I see from them instead is aimed at those who are in fact doing the denounciation! If you don't condone the behavior, then don't.

Why are you trying to tell fans how to act? Uruguayan fans, Argentine fans, Brazilian fans - usually the fans of the accuser doesnt' see the foul in the same light as the victim.

Anyway, fans can do and feel however they like. It is not your call, it is not mine. It is their team, they have a right to like or dislike them...

Originally posted by "Simply Ken"

What I read indicated that you are 'fed up' with those who complain about this sort of thing. I wish, instead, that you would be fed up, not with those who denounce such behavior, but teams that play so dirty.

It is like another poster said - Uruguay has a reputation of playing physical. Sometimes dirty, yes. That isn't cool in my opinion. But in some ways I think constantly whining about this is even worse.

Yes, I am fed up with the complaints - from those that haven't followed CONMEBOL or the teams they accuse without having the background knowledge - and without having the ability to see who their beef really is with. It's not Uruguay, it's not it's fans. That is why I said you misplace your blame, if you have one. I have seen Uruguay play many times. Yes, they do pull out some stunts. But does that give me the right to say "Your fans are at fault because they condone this by not complaining...." :rolleyes:


Originally posted by "Simply Ken"

You claimed there is 'no proof' that the behavior is condoned by S.American fans. I say the proof is found in the fact that this sort of disgusting, dirty, play goes on unabatted. If it was not condoned, it would stop. That proof, BTW, is merely highlighted by the negative reaction here among S.American fans to those who denounce such dirty tactics.

That is not what I said. Have I argued how "wrong" it is with another South American fan? But for $hits and giggles, okay - if that is what you say the proof is. Are you trying to play "International Football Cop"? You seem to want everyone to hold hands, stand in a circle, etc., sing "Joy to the World".

Originally posted by "Simply Ken"

You claim that I paint with it a big brush, taking my frustration on a 'few' and aiming it on the 'many'.

I say that your 'many' are partly to blame as well. They are partly to blame because they are not willing to condemn and punish the dirty play.

That is rubbish. Again, how can you blame all of the people? You expect the fans to retaliate against their own country? You expect the URuguay FA to strike a mighty blow to Abreu for his challenges and acts? He is one of their favorites. No.

Originally posted by "Simply Ken"

But I don't claim the blame is equally distributed. Of course, the practionaires of the dirty play are the ones who should be denounced most -- and are the ones who should be punished most specifically. Yet, the many who fail to stand up to this behavior cannot escape some criticism either.

I am going to skip the rest of the quote for time reasons.

People don't have to do anything. That is the bottom line. And you are forgetting that football, when you get to the bottom of it, get beyond your personal feelings and morals and even the fans, is a business. I am not being sarcastic when I tell you to look at my last sentence there and try to see what it means. It is deeper.

If you have, you can see that your beef, Ken, is not with the Uruguay fans, South american fans and etc. It is not with the Uruguay players. It is exactly like Oscar said. It is with the "powers that be" - the official, FIFA. You have to remove personal opinions, moral standards and values aside and look at the real situation. To illustrate this, put yourself in the position of Uruguay's manager. You have to understand Uruguay's culture, football culture, the political, social, economic climate and, well, what football means to the country, fans and etc. Look at the pressures that are there to obtain the results. Do the same as a player, do the same as a fan. You're saying what people "should" do and how people "should" think and suggesting something is wrong with them otherwise. I'm suggesting that instead, you "should" ask yourself "why"?

Finally, fans will support their national team. They want their national team to win. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that - Uruguay fans have the right to support their team just as much as American, English, German, Iranian, Nigerian, etc. do. Throwing things at players, etc. is unacceptable, of course. Pretty much everyone "denounces" that. Does Uruguay play dirty? At times, yes. But you suggesting or imploying that I or anyone should be held accountable for not screaming bloody murder is, well, rubbish. Why should I? You seem to want people to all join together and say how incredibly wrong and dirty Uruguay is and that they need to see the error of their ways - but how can you when you see all sides of the spectrum? It's bigger than that, Ken.

[Heist]

Originally posted by Alex_1
Anyway, fans can do and feel however they like. It is not your call, it is not mine. It is their team, they have a right to like or dislike them...

It is like another poster said - Uruguay has a reputation of playing physical. Sometimes dirty, yes. That isn't cool in my opinion. But in some ways I think constantly whining about this is even worse.
No, its not. There is no way it is worse to discuss it. I don't know why you think this discussion constitutes "constant whining", but even if it was constant whining, that does not make the dirty play.

You expect the URuguay FA to strike a mighty blow to Abreu for his challenges and acts? He is one of their favorites. No.
This is the EXACT problem with sports (and fame in general). People who are the favorites get away with whatever they want. Someone on this thread implied that this wasn't a big deal because it was only Iran. That's bull!
If Abreu deserves any special treatment its to have MORE of a duty to play respectably and represent his country. One thing The FA or coach could do is suspend these players from international matches for a few games. It sends a message, but doesn't hurt their national program too much.

People don't have to do anything. That is the bottom line. And you are forgetting that football, when you get to the bottom of it, get beyond your personal feelings and morals and even the fans, is a business. I am not being sarcastic when I tell you to look at my last sentence there and try to see what it means. It is deeper.

If you have, you can see that your beef, Ken, is not with the Uruguay fans, South american fans and etc. It is not with the Uruguay players. It is exactly like Oscar said. It is with the "powers that be" - the official, FIFA. You have to remove personal opinions, moral standards and values aside and look at the real situation. To illustrate this, put yourself in the position of Uruguay's manager. You have to understand Uruguay's culture, football culture, the political, social, economic climate and, well, what football means to the country, fans and etc. Look at the pressures that are there to obtain the results. Do the same as a player, do the same as a fan. You're saying what people "should" do and how people "should" think and suggesting something is wrong with them otherwise. I'm suggesting that instead, you "should" ask yourself "why"?

Finally, fans will support their national team. They want their national team to win. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that - Uruguay fans have the right to support their team just as much as American, English, German, Iranian, Nigerian, etc. do. Throwing things at players, etc. is unacceptable, of course. Pretty much everyone "denounces" that. Does Uruguay play dirty? At times, yes. But you suggesting or imploying that I or anyone should be held accountable for not screaming bloody murder is, well, rubbish. Why should I? You seem to want people to all join together and say how incredibly wrong and dirty Uruguay is and that they need to see the error of their ways - but how can you when you see all sides of the spectrum? It's bigger than that, Ken.

Alex, There is a good reason to behave well and not disgrace your country. If the other teams, players, countries don't respect you it will end up being bad for their country. I'm pretty sure Ken is trying to give ideas for how Uruguay might improve and not continue to give soccer a bad name. I did not see the game in question, but if they did any of the things written its deplorable and disgraceful. You can be a fan of the home team as much as you want... but at some point you have to encourage your team to play respectably.

Its correct, fans can act however they like. Again, all I think he was doing was assuming they desire the respect of other countries and a winning team. He was giving some ideas of how to get both of those things.

If football is a business (and I agree that it is), that's all the more reason to behave respectably as fans and expect nothing less from your opponents or the other team and its fans. In the short run dirty play can help a team like it did for Uruguay who won the game against Iran, but in the long run it never will win out... just like in business.

Of course, I agree that this problem starts at the top, with FIFA, but the fact that over a hundred countries can do just fine without condoning these tactics shows that it is possible. I've said this before on the board that its up to FIFA, CONMEBOL, the Uruguayan FA, and all the players and fans in the country to work on this problem.

["Simply Ken"]

Originally posted by Alex_1
Why are you trying to tell fans how to act?

Because the game of football suffers when such behavior is tolerated. There is a line between playing hard, and playing dirty.

[/i]

Uruguayan fans, Argentine fans, Brazilian fans - usually the fans of the accuser doesnt' see the foul in the same light as the victim.


First, here I am not merely talking about 'fouls'! Kicking, punching, kickboxing aren't supposed to be part of this game. Even repeated, intentional, hacking, done with the smug smile carried by the Uruguayans, is not a regular foul. Second, your point is relevant only when the behavior at issue is in dispute. Such disputes are settled by those who aren't biased, from the field referee, to FIFA to the court of public opinion.
[/i]
Anyway, fans can do and feel however they like. It is not your call, it is not mine. It is their team, they have a right to like or dislike them...

I can't tell the fans of another country what to do, but I can appeal to those who wish to rid the game of such dirty antics to raise their voice against it. If their voice is raised sufficiently, there will be price for teams like Uruguay to pay -- a price that would then counterbalance whatever benefits they get from their tactics. In the process, I believe that even those fans from these countries -- the ones who care for nothing except getting a result, no matter what the means -- would change their attitude and be less willing to condone such behavior too.
[/i]
It is like another poster said - Uruguay has a reputation of playing physical. Sometimes dirty, yes. That isn't cool in my opinion. But in some ways I think constantly whining about this is even worse.

Why it it worse to complain about a team playing dirty? That is absurd.

[/i]

Yes, I am fed up with the complaints ... "

And I'm suggesting you should be fed up with the dirty play instead. I don't know what team you support, but if you find your team being hacked, kicked, and punched by an opponent all game, and even afterwards, we will see how 'fed up' you are with such complaints!

[/i]

Are you trying to play "International Football Cop"? You seem to want everyone to hold hands, stand in a circle, etc., sing "Joy to the World".

I just want to make sure we don't create an incentive for teams to play dirty. I want to enjoy the game, in all it variety, from all over the world. I also want Uruguayan football to pay a price for what they did.
[/i]
I am going to skip the rest of the quote for time reasons.

Me too:-)

[Alex_1]

Dirty play happens in sports. Is it good? No, it's not. Should it go un-punished? No, it shouldn't. But if you want to complain, I suggest writing to your local FIFA spokesperson. When I watch my selection play and that happens to them, yes, I do get angry and say "I cannot believe they got away with that". When a player makes a dirty move, admittedly if it is my team I shake my head and chuckle but if the guy is a really dirty player I say "Okay, that is not cool". Don't blame me for being honest.

But having played sports on many different levels, you know that that can and does happen. There are some players that are physical, some that are dirty. Having watched sport so much, you can figure out the pattern, and you can get to the source of where the real problem is - if there is one. I'm just pointing that out.

So fine, you can make a plea to all of the fans that you want. But I'm just telling you it will most likely always fall on deaf ears - and I'm even playing devil's advocate and giving you reasons why. What you ask just doesn't really make sense from the other perspective - which I request you look at.

For Heist, I will respond at a later time. It's snowing like hell, I'm going home. Hmm... snowing like hell. lol

But in the end, here is the thing. I think that Ken, and Heist - you are American. American sports teams have "goons" too. How do you feel, honestly, when that "goon" is on the team you support. I know that probably you will say "I don't tolerate that" but in reality, most are glad they are on their team. ;) I remember in the United States - the Detroit Pistons. I hated them. I was a Bulls fan at the time. They had dirty ball-players, guys that went below the belt. But always at the end of the day, they were not just dirty, they were mentally tougher than my favorite team. Isaih Thomas was one of the best point guards of all times - Dennis Rodman best rebounders/defenders, Joe Dumars was a pure guard, Bill Laimbeer a pure garbage man that actually developed a shot. Yes, I hated them but I had to respect the fact that every night, they believed they could win and actually did. They were tougher.

And even the players of the Bulls, noticeably Michael Jordan would point that out. In the end, the tougher team won and the mantle was taken. The Bulls figured out how to get beyond their tactics and found out how to beat them - and it wasn't just at their own game. It was through perservering and outsmarting them.

So when I say "whining", I am not insulting Ken personally. I understand his perspective. Okay fine - talk about the "dirty" Uruguay plays and etc. I'm just saying that when the Selecao plays them, you know what to expect, you play through it, and beat them where it matters. IMO, constantly whining about it will only make the person whining look, well, weak. Instead of complaining that it's the fans fault too just won't happen.

[Heist]

When my guy makes a tricky play that bends the rules I think that's okay. When it becomes the only thing you can do to win games, then its a problem. When bending the rules gets players hurt, that's when I have a bigger problem no matter whose team it is. I am a little harsher on the opponent when they do it, but i'd rather have repeat offenders off any team I root for.
The Pistons are a great example of a team that played hard, and while I hated them I couldn't really say anything about it. They played within the rules and rarely did anyone get hurt. When someone did get hurt due to violence or anything the players get suspended, thus hurting them AND the team. The Knicks of around the same era or maybe a little later are a good example of thugs. They had little skill but won games on intimidation. It worked in the short term, but they could never beat the skill of the Bulls in a 7 game series.

Yes, when a team plays someone like Uruguay they play through it, around it, and outsmart them most of the time. Still, is that good for soccer, for Uruguay? Witness what happened to the Knicks, and even the Pistons (who I would classify as very different from the Knicks and much like Uruguay).

Of course, after a while "whining" has little or no positive effects, but it is not "worse than the offense as was implied" and it is important to let teams know that this shouldn't be tolerated and the implications of tolerating it.

[javid]

Please note I did not see the game, but I did read several reports about it.

The problem I have with the way Uruguay allegedly played isn't so much with the fact that they played dirty. Rather, my problem is that they seem to be able to dish it but not take it. According to the reports the Iranian team, which is a big team and does have a rep for playing physically as well, would foul back. It was at this point where the Uruguayan team degenerated to even cheaper shots and rather childish antics. Fighting your own coach??????

All told it was supposedly quite a physical game. I wish I saw it.

And I agree with a prior poster who basically said that you shouldn't make judgments about a culture based on a game. And anyone who says it's ok to play cheap against a team because they're from Iran or any other country that is politically unpopular is acting like an idiot and is being contrary to what I feel int'l sports should be all about.

My $.02 worth...

[cyrus]

Javid and others who didn't see the game:

This summary is not nearly half of the disgrace that was displayed, but gives you an idea. The scissor kick to the face of opponent or breaking ribs weren't as strange of players beating their own coach :

http://sport.scmp.com/usr4/Mac/gspt/MATCH6b.jpg

I'm not sure how to paste an image onthis board.

[cyrus]

About WC allocation:
The point has been presented that Uruguay's dirty antics in a meaningless game should not be grounds for sanctions against a region. A grand motto of FIFA is fair play. I don't think is up to fans to change the antics of their national sides, but if Federations do not see fair paly as a pillar of sportsmanship, do they belong in the larger global community? Wasn't mexico deprived of a WC appearance because of cheating in so called "meningless" youth games?
The point that I'm trying to make is to what degree violence could be allowed to intermingle with sports? Some may call it specific natural and cultural behavior of fans in certain countries and not subject to arrogant opinions of outsiders. But what are insiders doing about this? we have heard stories about players getting killed because of scoring an own goal, refs being chased down because of calling a PK and have witnessed teams intentionally changing nature of football with kickboxing over a lousy $40,000 prize money.
If this is the culture of football that is immune to change,why there is an expectation of belonging in international community? As much as football presents a chance to bring about glories of one's culture and country ( especially in WC) it also requires to adhere to the fundementals of sportsmanship.
SA deserves to send their good and qualified teams to the WC and have right amount of allocation. In order to guarantee their right share, the need to have support and sympathy of other federations and fans around globe. Put Brazil and Argentina aside,in addition to a rotating third power i.e Paraguay, Columbia or Chile, what is out there for a regular fan like me to long for an Uruguayan style of play over Australia? In reality how superior is the fourth best team of this region , compared to the sides that didn't make last world cup such as Honduras/Morocco/Ukraine/Iran/ Australia?

In long run ,an inter continental qualification system such as Ken proposed might serve justice in allocationg WC spots, but untill then there needs to be some improvment in image to present a just cause. Perhaps sanctioning players on grounds of unsportsmanship or at least beating up your own coach could be a start by regional federations.

[Penarol1916]

Actually the fourth best team in CONMEBOL this last time was nearly Brazil, the World Cup champions, so don't go shooting your mouth off like that.

[cyrus]

It may serve you well to read first and get the point before jumping to a rude reply.
I had already accounted for Brazil and Argentina as traditional powers plus a third force that seems to be rotating every four years such as Paraguay or Coloumbia. The point was the fourth team ( not necessarily the fourth qualified team for the sake of light readers) is not far superior to likes of Ukraine,Morocco, Australia, or even Honduras/Iran that didn't qualify for the last world cup.......................

[Rafael Hernandez]

Originally posted by Heist

This is the EXACT problem with sports (and fame in general). People who are the favorites get away with whatever they want. Someone on this thread implied that this wasn't a big deal because it was only Iran. That's bull!
I

I didn't imply that so shut up. I was referring to the fact that Simply Ken always used to make a big deal about Iran in SAG. Saying that South American didn't deserve any consideration for actions in a stupid friendly in the Carlsberg Cup is another one of those overreactions. If would have been the same thing if I had said that after all those scuffles between Mexico and Uruguay in Copa 2001, that they deserve to be banned or something.

["Simply Ken"]

Originally posted by Rafael Hernandez
I didn't imply that so shut up.

You are not so young anymore, Rafael. You can express yourself better, showing better manners.

I was referring to the fact that Simply Ken always used to make a big deal about Iran in SAG.

I hope I was helpful in enlightening you and others about football in regions lesser known here!

Saying that South American didn't deserve any consideration for actions in a stupid friendly in the Carlsberg Cup is another one of those overreactions. If would have been the same thing if I had said that after all those scuffles between Mexico and Uruguay in Copa 2001, that they deserve to be banned or something.

It is actually easier to come down hard on lesser known players who resort to such animalistic behavior in a meaningless tournament! If the Uruguyan FA refuses to do something about these players acting like this in a friendly (sic) tournament, then no one will expect them to do anything with regard to more important games involving more famed players.

In any case, such conduct is reprehensible, and should be punished, even if it takes place among high school soccer players. The nature of the tournament does not lessen the crime, particularly since those actions could very well have seriously injured some young (and very promising) Iranian players.

P.S.

Alex said my condemnation would be better expressed if directed at FIFA. I disagree. The Iranian FA can deal with the issue, if they so choose, by complaining to FIFA. However, having written FIFA to commend Denmark for its fair play against Iran in the same tournament, Iran might not wish to now write to condemn another team for dirty play!

As a fan who comments on football, I express my condemnation differently, and direct it at public opinion.

[Heist]

Originally posted by Rafael Hernandez
I didn't imply that so shut up. I was referring to the fact that Simply Ken always used to make a big deal about Iran in SAG. Saying that South American didn't deserve any consideration for actions in a stupid friendly in the Carlsberg Cup is another one of those overreactions. If would have been the same thing if I had said that after all those scuffles between Mexico and Uruguay in Copa 2001, that they deserve to be banned or something.
Rafael,
Please don't tell me to shut up. It only makes you look immature and won't serve to make me stop posting.
I apologize if there was some confusion. I was referring to the fact that Alex1 said Abreu shouldn't be punished because he was a Uruguayan favorite. "You expect the Uruguay FA to strike a mighty blow to Abreu for his challenges and acts? He is one of their favorites. No."
I was also referring to the person who said that it was "only Iran". I view both of those statements as a problem in today's world.

I'm not saying to ban a team, but I think some action against the players, and the coach that allowed this play to go on and these players to stay in the game after this kind of behavior IS warranted. Ken makes a good point that Uruguay should do something about this. If they don't do something now, they certainly won't do anything when its harder, when its a player that has more of an impact on their team. It doens't even have to be a big suspension, but an acknowledgement that this is not the way to play and it is not tolerated is warranted if Uruguay wants to maintain its respect in international soccer. I can't imagine any FA agreeing to play Uruguay after this game if it doesn't recieve any kind of action from the Uruguay FA.

[cyrus]

Ken : You wrote :
"The Iranian FA can deal with the issue, if they so choose, by complaining to FIFA. However, having written FIFA to commend Denmark for its fair play against Iran in the same tournament, Iran might not wish to now write to condemn another team for dirty play! "

A video clip of some of the stuff that went on and was not captured by TV cameras is being prepared to be submitted to FIFA.

The video clips shot by fans and reporters , in addition to violence that went on in the game will include :
1- Sucker punching Iranian reserve goalie ( fanaee) by Uruguan bench.
2- Iranian defender( Nosrati) being physically attacked by Uruguay's #2 at the tunnel leading to the locker rooms after the conclusion of the game.
3- Witness account and tetimony of people present at Royal Garden's Restuarant ( the hotel that both teams were staying) on the fact that Uruguays ejected player #21 ( Pralata?) challanging Iranian players to a fight outside hotel at asked time (2:30 AM). He specifically asked for Iran's #8.
4- Injury reports on 7 Iranian players being roughed by savage Uruguan players.
5- Various instances Uruguans attempted to physically intimidate Refs.


It will be up to Iranian federation to file the official complaint, but perhaps as you said they may not proceed. However the video in any regards will be distributed to disciplinary commitee authorities.

[wu-tang beez]

Originally posted by cyrus
A video clip of some of the stuff that went on and was not captured by TV cameras is being prepared to be submitted to FIFA.
The video clips shot by fans and reporters , in addition to violence that went on in the game will include :
1- Sucker punching Iranian reserve goalie ( fanaee) by Uruguan bench.
2- Iranian defender( Nosrati) being physically attacked by Uruguay's #2 at the tunnel leading to the locker rooms after the conclusion of the game.
3- Witness account and tetimony of people present at Royal Garden's Restuarant ( the hotel that both teams were staying) on the fact that Uruguays ejected player #21 ( Pralata?) challanging Iranian players to a fight outside hotel at asked time (2:30 AM). He specifically asked for Iran's #8.
4- Injury reports on 7 Iranian players being roughed by savage Uruguan players.
5- Various instances Uruguans attempted to physically intimidate Refs.

If these reports are accurate than FIFA needs to issue a mandatory 3 game ban for ea of these players, issue a stiff fine to the Uruguayan Federation and strip the Nats of the draw to a forfeit. In short, FIFA needs to grow a pair if it wishes to remain relevant.

That being said, COMEBOL deserves the right to a play off for the slot rather than give it to Austrailia or New Zealand(fat chance) since neither can do it themselves.

[Alex_1]

Originally posted by Heist
I apologize if there was some confusion. I was referring to the fact that Alex1 said Abreu shouldn't be punished because he was a Uruguayan favorite. "You expect the Uruguay FA to strike a mighty blow to Abreu for his challenges and acts? He is one of their favorites. No."

Dammit this is what actually pisses me off. I was using Sebastian Abreu as an example. I don't even know if he played in the match. I don't know if anyone here even knows who he is. And when I stated that, I was referring to his reputation to Uruguay fans. He is a physical player. But also skilled. He takes more pride in playing for Uruguay. Also, you totally do my comment injustice by taking it out of the context of the post I wrote it in. Of course it looks peachy for your side when you do this.

End of discussion. Debate is good - but not when the angle that wasn't implied is added. A bit too much of a stretch, hmm?

[Alex_1]

Originally posted by wu-tang beez
If these reports are accurate than FIFA needs to issue a mandatory 3 game ban for ea of these players, issue a stiff fine to the Uruguayan Federation and strip the Nats of the draw to a forfeit. In short, FIFA needs to grow a pair if it wishes to remain relevant.

That being said, COMEBOL deserves the right to a play off for the slot rather than give it to Austrailia or New Zealand(fat chance) since neither can do it themselves.

I'm through with the other two. Although they do (I sincerely hope) now see that it isn't Uruguay or their fans that is the problem.

Wu-tang - I see what you are saying but consider this. Did you follow Portugal leading up to the World Cup? This is a selection with a horrible reputation of having "melt-downs". Anyway, recall their "friendly" against Angola prior to the WC - and the aftermath. Interesting, no?

[Goa^uld]

Sorry to say, Since our loss to Argentina in qualifying for the 1994 World Cup, Australia has only lose one match in World Cup qualifying, and that was the away leg against Uruguay in Montevideo.
The only reason we missed out was because of the away goals rule. One spot to oceania doesnt really hurt anyone, I don't think. But, I'm Australian, so I am biased, obviously.
Why not just take one spot away from Asia and give that to Australia?
That would be far fairer than the current crappy way it is done. My personal preference is to make Australia qualify through the Asian Confederation....
But, what does my opinion count for in the eyes of FIFA and AFC? Absolutely nothing.