GRAND THEFT. Fifa takes S. America spot

[Heist]

I'm not an official moderator or anything, but can we keep it civil here?
There's no reason for one or another of us to bash each other's countries.

Uruguay's *play* (not their culture or their fans or anything else) disgraced their nation and their confederation.

Yes, the actions of one team should have an effect on the whole confederation. Its up to each confederation to put the best teams on the field and in the World Cup. If you look earlier in this thread that's what i've been trying to argue all along. I was talking more about playing skill and ability to do well in the World Cup, but dirty play certainly another way in which a confederation should try to keep its member countries in line.

The fact that this horrible display happened against Iran doesn't make it less of a disgrace. That is a stupid argument. A crime should not be judged based on who it was committed against. It was still an international tournament and Uruguay was representing itself and CONMEBOL.

[Alex_1]

Originally posted by "Simply Ken"
Uruguay have a bad reputation even among South Americans, but S.American football (excepting Brazil) as a whole is prone to dirty antics. And such dirty tactics makes me totally unsympathetic to any claims that the region is somehow 'robbed' of a World Cup place when they are getting 40% of their teams automatically qualified to the event.


I have to agree with Oscar actually regarding the officiating comment.

But... we've gone through the numbers soooooo many times before. Do we really want to go through it again?

["Simply Ken"]

Rafael,

Iranian fans were throwing things at our own players at the end of the Ireland-Iran game in Tehran, after they know the curtain had come down for the team. They were registering their displeasure at our failure to make the World Cup, not directing anything at the Irish. Since several posters at SAG watched the match (e.g. Gunners), you might ask them about it.

In any case, I denounced that stupid behavior completely. The problem is that I don't see S.Americans denounce even obviously 'dirty' plays committed by their players. Those should be denounced.

After the Iran v. Mexico friendly, although we lost a close fight that could have gone either way, I congratulated you and complemented the Mexican team -- except Hernandez. In that match, Hernandez threw an intentional elbow at one our players (Estili), and then spat at another, Hamedani, when the game was over!! I said he was a disgrace, but you refused to codemn his behavior.

If such behavior is not condemned, then it will continue. Uruguay are known to be a very dirty side. I don't see their fans complaining about it. They should, and if they do, that will change.

[Heist]

Originally posted by "Simply Ken"
After the Iran v. Mexico friendly, although we lost a close fight that could have gone either way, I congratulated you and complemented the Mexican team -- except Hernandez. In that match, Hernandez threw an intentional elbow at one our players (Estili), and then spat at another, Hamedani, when the game was over!! I said he was a disgrace, but you refused to codemn his behavior.

If such behavior is not condemned, then it will continue. Uruguay are known to be a very dirty side. I don't see their fans complaining about it. They should, and if they do, that will change.

Ken, I completely agree. As a big US Nats fan, I was disturbed by the play of Mexico at the end of the WC loss to the USA.
It is up to Uruguay, FIFA, and CONMEBOL all to deal with this problem.

["Simply Ken"]

Heist, I am glad you agree. And I wish we could ALL agree with that simple proposition -- and act accordingly.

BTW, the behavior of the Mexican nats in that game merely damaged Mexico's reputation. I wasn't surprised that Hernandez was the dirty player he showed, but I expected better from Rafael Marquez -- who I don't regard in the same low light despite his action.

[Crowdie]

I am not surprised by there being trouble with a Uruguay fixture. I remember the Australian team having players (and the coach) spat as they left the airport in Uruguay before their World Cup qualifier. One of the senior players was even punched in the face by a Uruguay supporter. John Howard, the Australian Prime Minister, and everybody here in the Ocenania confederation were absolutely disgusted by this. I don't remember this being what soccer is about.

This is certainly not an Uruguay issue:

1) It happens in countries other than Uruguay.
2) The Uruguay rugby supporters are fantastic. They are in New Zealand at the moment for the Wellington Sevens tournament and they do cultural demonstrations that are out of this world.

It is up to each country to sort it out at their level and supporters to remember that you can give an opposing team some flack during the game (within reason) but never before or after a game.

Crowdie.

[THFCfan]

Originally posted by "Simply Ken"
R

After the Iran v. Mexico friendly, although we lost a close fight that could have gone either way, I congratulated you and complemented the Mexican team -- except Hernandez. In that match, Hernandez threw an intentional elbow at one our players (Estili), and then spat at another, Hamedani, when the game was over!! I said he was a disgrace, but you refused to codemn his behavior.


The Mexicans are into that, ask Cobi.

I think it was the funniest thing ever when the referee calls a foul after a dirty tackle on Cobi Jones and the Mexican (can't remember who) steps on Jones on his way to argue with the ref.

[THFCfan]

Percentages and stuff are stupid the only fair way to look at this is how their teams perform at the World Cup. We all agree Asia should have maybe 3-3.5 spots at the most. Japan and Korea were pretty good at home (Korea with a little, I mean a lot of help from the refs). The other Asian countries embarassed themselves. China and Saudi didn't score a goal and had a combined 21 GA.

CONCACAF - US and Mexico were both impressive. Costa Rica was competent and had a decent chance of advancing. Another half spot is justified.

CONMEBOL - Brazil won, Argentina flopped but you can't really take away a spot since we all know they are a good team. Paraguay were decent. Uruguay were decent. Ecuador were OK. Overall, stay the same.

CAF - Senegal were good, Cameroon decent, Nigeria did OK in Group of death. Bafana Bafana decent. Tunisia were pretty bad, managed to get a draw against who else, Belgium. Same, take away a half maybe.

UEFA - Germany were runners up with a little luck, France flopped. England, Turkey(I think they must be UEFA), Spain, and Ireland were good. Some teams were below expectations (Poland, Portugal, France) but none were really bad. Stay the same.

Oceania - Once again, didn't make it. Taking away Conmebol's spot is criminal. Try a playoff of top two Oceania and 4 and 5 Asia for one spot.

["Simply Ken"]

Originally posted by THFCfan
Percentages and stuff are stupid the only fair way to look at this is how their teams perform at the World Cup. We all agree Asia should have maybe 3-3.5 spots at the most. Japan and Korea were pretty good at home (Korea with a little, I mean a lot of help from the refs). The other Asian countries embarassed themselves. China and Saudi didn't score a goal and had a combined 21 GA.


PLease, lets not reopen that debate. The fact of the matter is that any system that picks World Cup berths on (a) regional quotas (b) decided based on how other teams from the same region did 4+ years ago, (c) which inherently magnifies the advantages obtained by the more established sides, and (d) which is based ultimately on 'what we all know' (as opposed to the results obtained by the relevant teams at relevant times), is FLAWED. No amount of word spinning will change that. The only solution that to me takes into account all the competing interests is one ultimately looks at intercontinental qualifying. My own proposal in that regard is detailed in one of the last messages in one of the threads here, I think the one proposing 40 teams.

BTW, if teams such as Argentina or France can be excused for poor performances because they merely 'flopped', then there might be others whose performance over only 3 games might not be so conclusive either. This is all the more true for sides that don't have the same level of experience, and might become awed by the occasion to do far worse than they merit. Why is it that you think the two winless teams of Asia in World Cup history, S.Korea and Japan, suddenly did well at home? It is the same reason probably that saw Mexico go winless for most of its World Cup history, until it gained in confidence and experience after some success hosting a couple of tournaments.

[Crowdie]

I like Simply Ken's idea of a world qualification but it needs to be continuous rather than just once every four years or the less experienced teams will remain less experienced and just get thumped every four years.

Crowdie.

["Simply Ken"]

Originally posted by Crowdie
I like Simply Ken's idea of a world qualification but it needs to be continuous rather than just once every four years or the less experienced teams will remain less experienced and just get thumped every four years.

Crowdie.

Although I wish it could be continuous, that would present too many obstacles, killing the idea because of fixture congestion and the like. Nor do I feel that your prediction that lesser teams will necessarily just get thumped will prove true. Since many of them will play against better opposition, with more of them even hosting such games, the level of football in these regions will gradually improve. Besides, we don't need to make perfect the enemy of the good!

Anyway, for those who might have missed my proposal, I am reposting it here as well:-)

Here is my proposal for allocating World Cup berths.

Automatic qualifiers: 18 divided as follows

Host: 1
UEFA: 9
Conembol: 2
CAF: 2
AFC: 2
Concacaf: 2

---

Intercontinental Qualifying: 14 of 35 participating teams to go to the World Cup as follows:

*7 Groups, 35 teams, 14 (top 2 in each groups) go to the World Cup
*Each confederation hosting one of the groups, plus one group hosted by defending World Cup champions.
*The qualifiers to be played in a 2 week period at the same time slated before hand by FIFA for these games.

35 teams selected as follows:

Defending World Cup Champion: 1
UEFA: 9
CAF: 7
AFC: 6
Concacaf: 6
Conembol: 5
Oceania: 2

---

Advantages of this system:

1) Lesser sides/confederations gain from the experience of playing meaningful games against teams from other, more established, confederations

2) The advantages and exposure of hosting games is spread around more evenly, benefiting more countries

3) The system is less arbitrary in picking who qualifies for the World Cup, not relying solely on quotas derived from questionable data (i.e. past performance of other teams from same confederation in the World Cup). At the same time, teams that do qualify will have proved they belong, beating out teams from other confederations.

[Crowdie]

What we need to avoid is the smaller confederations playing "sudden death" games against larger confederations so the smaller confederations only play two or three games in their entire World Cup qualifications. This is what was happening for Oceania until FIFA changed the rules for the 2006 World Cup.

Your idea of a qualification tournament certainly has potential. Question is do you play it as a tournament like the World Cup or is it played like a league with games played all around the world?

Crowdie

["Simply Ken"]

Originally posted by Crowdie
What we need to avoid is the smaller confederations playing "sudden death" games against larger confederations so the smaller confederations only play two or three games in their entire World Cup qualifications. This is what was happening for Oceania until FIFA changed the rules for the 2006 World Cup.

Your idea of a qualification tournament certainly has potential. Question is do you play it as a tournament like the World Cup or is it played like a league with games played all around the world?

Crowdie

My proposal has 7 groups, each hosted in one of the 6 confederations along with a group hosted by the World Cup champion, with 5 teams in each of these groups. The top 2 team in each group advance.

That means each team in my "mini-World Cups" will get to play 4 games in this round. It is not 'sudden death', although obviously it is a competitive system and losing points in any game might prove costly. But since 2 of the teams advance, I don't think merely having one poor result will typically disqualify a side.

Now, in Australia's case, particularly if they are selected by the OFC to host one of these "mini-World Cups" on their behalf (possibly alternating with New Zealand for the honor), I don't see how they could complain of not qualifying to the World Cup if they can't finish among the 2 in their group, competing against what are 'runner up' teams from other regions!

BTW, a more vexing problem for me was how to divide the runner up teams in each of these groups. I have come up with a formula for that as well, taking into account competing interests in keeping the groups evenly matched and yet regionally as diverse as possible.

Basically, I would use FIFA's rankings to divide the teams into 5 pots: the 1st pot would have the hosts; the 2nd pot would have the remaining, best 7 teams based on FIFA's rankings; the 3rd pot would have the next 7 'best' teams according to FIFA's rankings; until you get to the bottom 7 teams based on FIFA's rankings, with would be placed in pot 5. Each group would be drawn to have one team from each pot, with the pots drawn in a way to avoid as much as possible too many teams from the same region in any group. Thus, if New Zealand, for instance, was in pot 5, it could draw any group except the one hosted by Australia.

[cyrus]

A question to South American friends.
I'm puzzled by disgrace that Uruguay displayed at Hong Kong Tournament. I also gather that sort of performance by Uruguay is not a surprise to those who have followed South American sides. What puzzles me , is the fact that their way of football, is in no way indicative of the norms of behaviour in their society or culture.I have visited many S.A nations including Uruguay. As a matter of fact, visiting Uruguay after spending time in Brazil and Argentina, was finding a sea of tranquility. I found their people very peaceful, educated and civilized. That is why I'm at a quandry where that dirty football mentality comes from.

[Rafael Hernandez]

Originally posted by cyrus
A question to South American friends.
I'm puzzled by disgrace that Uruguay displayed at Hong Kong Tournament. I also gather that sort of performance by Uruguay is not a surprise to those who have followed South American sides. What puzzles me , is the fact that their way of football, is in no way indicative of the norms of behaviour in their society or culture.I have visited many S.A nations including Uruguay. As a matter of fact, visiting Uruguay after spending time in Brazil and Argentina, was finding a sea of tranquility. I found their people very peaceful, educated and civilized. That is why I'm at a quandry where that dirty football mentality comes from.


I know that Uruguay was always well known for the fighting spirit and their never give up attitude. "La Garra Charrua" . That later turned into being more violent and to give more fouls. Someone more knowing of Uruguay may tell how and why but that was even said in "Futbol sol y sombra" by Eduardo Galeano.

[Rafael Hernandez]

Originally posted by "Simply Ken"
Rafael,

Iranian fans were throwing things at our own players at the end of the Ireland-Iran game in Tehran, after they know the curtain had come down for the team. They were registering their displeasure at our failure to make the World Cup, not directing anything at the Irish. Since several posters at SAG watched the match (e.g. Gunners), you might ask them about it.

In any case, I denounced that stupid behavior completely. The problem is that I don't see S.Americans denounce even obviously 'dirty' plays committed by their players. Those should be denounced.

After the Iran v. Mexico friendly, although we lost a close fight that could have gone either way, I congratulated you and complemented the Mexican team -- except Hernandez. In that match, Hernandez threw an intentional elbow at one our players (Estili), and then spat at another, Hamedani, when the game was over!! I said he was a disgrace, but you refused to codemn his behavior.

If such behavior is not condemned, then it will continue. Uruguay are known to be a very dirty side. I don't see their fans complaining about it. They should, and if they do, that will change.


Have you ever seen Fox Sports Noticias? They always denounce it. Many people do all the time. From Galeano to Valdano. But you probably won't hear that just as many people didn't hear the condemnation by Iranians since its another side of the world. Because of Given exposure, it his quote that is fammous.


And its a freaking friendly in 2003. If South American should lose a spot because of the actions of some crap uruguayan teams of nobodies when its not even sure if they would take that 5th spot( it could be Chile or Bolivia, side who are not know for fighting and fouling) then its an even bigger injustice.

As for Mexico hosting being a boom, it was in 86 but not in 1970.

["Simply Ken"]

Rafael,

Whoever said that Conembol should lose a spot because of Uruguay's actions in that match?

I merely denounced the behavior, and indicated that such dirty play does not make me sympathetic to complaints from S.American fans about their new World Cup allocation. Otherwise, I have my own views on how to divide World Cup allocations, and they are the ones I have presented here in my last two previous messages.

As for denunciation of such dirty tactics in general, unfortunately my view is that they are often too muted among many South Americans. The best proof of it to me is that the behavior continues unabatted among teams like Uruguay, even in the context of a totally meaningless tournament!

I'm sure when the denounciations are more urgent and more heartfelt, the behavior will also change as well.

[pololo]

Originally posted by "Simply Ken"
Rafael,

Whoever said that Conembol should lose a spot because of Uruguay's actions in that match?

I merely denounced the behavior, and indicated that such dirty play does not make me sympathetic to complaints from S.American fans about their new World Cup allocation. Otherwise, I have my own views on how to divide World Cup allocations, and they are the ones I have presented here in my last two previous messages.

As for denunciation of such dirty tactics in general, unfortunately my view is that they are often too muted among many South Americans. The best proof of it to me is that the behavior continues unabatted among teams like Uruguay, even in the context of a totally meaningless tournament!

I'm sure when the denounciations are more urgent and more heartfelt, the behavior will also change as well.

Go smoke some pot and relax ************ happends.
And what are you sympathing with,the oceanians?

[Alex_1]

Originally posted by Rafael Hernandez
Have you ever seen Fox Sports Noticias? They always denounce it. Many people do all the time. From Galeano to Valdano. But you probably won't hear that just as many people didn't hear the condemnation by Iranians since its another side of the world. Because of Given exposure, it his quote that is fammous.


And its a freaking friendly in 2003. If South American should lose a spot because of the actions of some crap uruguayan teams of nobodies when its not even sure if they would take that 5th spot( it could be Chile or Bolivia, side who are not know for fighting and fouling) then its an even bigger injustice.

As for Mexico hosting being a boom, it was in 86 but not in 1970.

Well said. So many people cry, whine and complain and claim that "South Americans and Mexicans support this, blah blah blah," and also say crap like "The fans condone this in South America" without having any valid or justifiable proof - anything they pull out will be simple isolated items that hardly speak for the masses.

Honestly, I'm a bit fed up with it and just acknowledge that those that say that kind of baseless jargon don't know football, but more than anything, don't understand global football. There are other cultures and other media outlets that they don't see. To make a blanket accusation without taking that into account is, for lack of better words, ignorant.

Also, to play devil's advocat - who cares if you think what the players or Uruguayan's did was "wrong"? Why do the fans of another country have to "see the error of their players' ways"? That is arrogant.

Uruguay does play physical, and they have striken below the belt. I don't condone many things they do, but I don't say "they are a disgrace - their fans condone this. It starts with CONMEBOL. CONMEBOL and FIFA have to change this." Most fans don't condone that. I think that Ken is taking his frustration of the few out on the many - blowing it out of proportion - that is the way I am reading this.

As for the allocation of spots - my point was made long ago in this thread. CONMEBOL should not have lost the half spot. It should have been either CAF or Asia. I do not think South America should gain a spot either. Again, 4.5 is okay. It was Colombia's fault for not qualifying. Just like it would have been the others had they not - similar to what AFCA said in either this thread or another regarding Holland.

["Simply Ken"]

Alex,

It seems to me that many S.American fans want it both ways. Rafael claims that they 'denounce' such dirty tactics. Yet, the only denounciation I see from them instead is aimed at those who are in fact doing the denounciation! If you don't condone the behavior, then don't.

What I read indicated that you are 'fed up' with those who complain about this sort of thing. I wish, instead, that you would be fed up, not with those who denounce such behavior, but teams that play so dirty.

Two last point.

You claimed there is 'no proof' that the behavior is condoned by S.American fans. I say the proof is found in the fact that this sort of disgusting, dirty, play goes on unabatted. If it was not condoned, it would stop. That proof, BTW, is merely highlighted by the negative reaction here among S.American fans to those who denounce such dirty tactics.

You claim that I paint with it a big brush, taking my frustration on a 'few' and aiming it on the 'many'.

I say that your 'many' are partly to blame as well. They are partly to blame because they are not willing to condemn and punish the dirty play.

But I don't claim the blame is equally distributed. Of course, the practionaires of the dirty play are the ones who should be denounced most -- and are the ones who should be punished most specifically. Yet, the many who fail to stand up to this behavior cannot escape some criticism either.

I understand a player, even an entire team, occasionally losing his/their 'cool' and doing something stupid. It happens everywhere, in every country and region. But when such behavior is repeated, orchestrated, and never really denounced, then the problem is different. Then the problem is treating dirty play as a legitimate tactic!

P.S.

I am not saying that no one in S.America denounces the behavior. I am saying more should, until the behavior changes. Uruguay have a reputation for playing dirty, and they live up to that reputation all the time, even surpassing it in the game against Iran.