GRAND THEFT. Fifa takes S. America spot

[RichardL]

Originally posted by Mr. Cam
Did you want to say: Of course its all about money and has nothing to do with football ability...?

Did you want to say: That's why CONCACAF received 3.5 places. FIFA made it easy for the Yanks to qualify so they might eventually reap the financial rewards if football becomes big in North America.
Oh great, Mr Cam has added pedantry to his collection of argument techniques. I suppose it beats posting large sections of irrelevant NFL revenue figures.


In England it’s called Ruby

so the NFL is a curry?



Please do explain oh Sir erudite; can you empathically demonstrate the superiority of the transfer system over the draft system in regards to Football-Soccer?

Well we prefer capitalism rather than your commie NFL ideals.


Then why do you, Sir England, still watch the EPL or Football-Soccer?

I know it may have been difficult for you to follow, what with there being whole sentences that didn't mention the NFL, but he was referring to the game's organising body, FIFA, rather than the sport itself.


Correction, greedy WHITE EUROPEAN fatcats are running the sport and trying to milk as much cash as possible before they kill off the whole sport.

Yep, those white Europeans took away UEFA's place out of sheer greed. When will Europe ever get a fair deal from whitey?


And the NFL gives all its profits to charity I presume?

[Shahryar]

I don't think anyone got screwed (!) in this new format; not necessarily at least. I can probably justify all of those selections somehow (except perhaps for Australia, ...sorry, I meant to say for Oceania's one full seed entry!).

I know that Australia has tried many times and have mostly failed to get a berth to the Finals. But that is really their own fault. Their destiny was at their own hands, so to speak. I think the problem with Australia was that once they get the to the playoff spot, they had only one game (or a quick two game series), and as we know anything could happen in those situations.

A better solution for Australia as well as FIFA and world football is to put them in the same final group of Asia or CONCACAF for final qualification. By that I mean, for example Asia's best 9 teams plus Australia form a 10-team group and play in round-robin format. The top 5 will then go to the World Cup (or for CONCCAF; the top 7 teams plus Australia, and top 4 teams will advance).

This way, if Australia has a bad day, they are not necessarily out. And even better, they can earn their trip to WC. In addition, all the teams mentioned above will get to practice against a team they normally do not, and build valuable experience.

[wu-tang beez]

Why should we have to travel to the other side of the globe to prove that they aren't good enough to qualify out of our group?

[sammydog]

Shahryar

Australia has tried on many occasions to join asia. The fans here would agree with you and would love to see the oceania champion then qualify through the final asian group (or CONCACAF as you also suggested).

Everyone now is suggesting that it would be fairer if we were placed with asia. Well we have tried for years to acheive this and have been ignored. Now that we (Oceania) have a full space, asia is taking an interest in us. The oceania champion will be involved in the asian championships and the champion oceania club side will play in the asian champions league.

[Shahryar]

sammydog,

I knew that for the past few WCs there were several different ideas proposed to modify the Oceania's WC entry format. But I was not aware that my particular suggestions was also on the discussion table, and more specifically, it was discussed and then rejected by Asia! If that is true as you stated, it is very sad. Such a format (IMO) offers so much to both federations, as well as to the world of football.

I remember when Iran and Australia had to battle it out on couple of occasions, and how exciting thoses games were. I also believe that both teams benefited from those encounters. A series that will have more of these teams playing each other can only lead to more progress on both sides.

I belive a great deal in building experience playing teams you normally don't get a chance to meet. I was actually very happy for Iran in last year's WC qualifying round, because they were forced to meet Ireland on home and away game format. I believed that was invaluable opportunity for Iran and Ireland to play such high level and meaningful games.

What is done is done, and the current format stays at least until 2006. The pressure however is enormous (again, IMO) on Australia to perform well at the 2006 WC, or they may lose their full spot and return to the usual half a spot and the playoff format.

In any way, best of luck to Australia (and Oceania) in 2006.

[Kevin Etzel]

Originally posted by Jay510
not to mention that any 5th place CONMEBOL team would never get their butts whipped in the cup, ever.

i mean cmon, giving asia a chance at 5 spots, it not like its real,

I agree, CONMEBOL teams have not stunk at the World Cup, CONCACAF also have not stunk for a while, since 1990. IMHO, CONMEBOL deserves 4.5 or 5 slots, CONCACAF 3 or 3.5 slots. There is no way anyone can justify Asia getting 4.5 slots based on quality of play.

[AFCA]

There is nothing worng with European qualifying.

Holland should have beaten Ireland, but they played like the spoiled brats they are... a bunch of **************. The Irish were no match, but they played with passion and fought fr it. And they scored.

Simple as that. No-ones fault but the players'. And I believe they realize it. Maybe that's why they've been playing some class A football recently.

[The Double]

No team should lose if they have a guy named Roy Makaay on their team.

[Mel Brennan]

How is this (and the lack of voting power for South America - 10 votes in a FIFA of over 200 members-) fixed?

FOUR CONFEDERATIONS.

Asia-Ocenia
North and South America
Europe
Africa

Each gets 8 slots, period. OR, 10 for Europe/Americas, 6 for Asia/Africa...

I actualyl prefer 8 for all. Who cares about the ninth best European team? have they ever done anything other than fall at the first hurdle, like all the other lowest-seeded entries of other Confederations?

Four Confederations allows the competition to remain a "World Cup," without all the political shenanigans and "one-nation/one vote" marginalization...

And I get to see the US qualify against Brazil and Argentina, and actually get better doing so... :)

[Sachin]

Universal, I see someone has read their William Gibson. If you ever get a sockpuppet, you have to name it 3Jane. :D

As for the rest of you, just ignore Mr. Cam. He's a troll with absolutely nothing to say.

Sachin

[Mel Brennan]

Originally posted by Sachin
Universal, I see someone has read their William Gibson. If you ever get a sockpuppet, you have to name it 3Jane. :D

Sachin

lol, my daughter's name is Molly...no, just kidding, not that into it...lol

Well, maybe...

www.geocities.com/sprawlmovies

(^my site)

but given the rape of Tolkien that was TTT (I actually like FOTR, but this last rape of the story was just too damn much), and the pile of detritus that was the film of Johnny Mnemonic, I'm reconsidering the push for Gibson's work to come to the big screen...and if so, it must be low-budget, to keep the homogenizing marketing whores away from the work, such that the actors can act. Or maybe the director will have to have the courage of a Francis Ford Coppola, who faked a seizure in the office of the studio bigwigs in order to get The Godfather done HIS way...

Is that too much information? LOL :)

[Crowdie]

Interesting thread but I thought I would correct a few comments:

> Oceania's vote helped Germany/UEFA to win the
> rights to host the WC Finals. They probably
> appeased the Africans for losing the 2006 WC.

Charley Dempsey, the Oceania official at the WC vote, did not vote in the final round because UEFA threatened the Oceania confederation if they did not vote for Germany. At the same time pressure was coming to bear from Africa who wanted South Africa to host the 2006 WC. By not voting Dempsey protected the Oceania confederation from any "revenge tactics" from the losing confederation. Originally Oceania supported the English bid to host the 2006 WC.

> New Zealand actually has a shot. They are the
> only serious competition in Oceania for
> Australia. They are after all, the last Oceania
> team to make the World Cup. Things have changed
> a lot since then, but Australia isn't
> guaranteed to beat NZ.

True. Fiji is also making vast strides in their soccer.

> Australia, sorry, Oceania do not deserve an
> automatic place in the WC. They can't even beat
> a third placed Iranian team, or a 5th placed SA
> team.

If this system applied to sport then England (the poster of this message is from England) would not be allowed at the rugby, netball or cricket world cups (to name a few). Australia (and New Zealand) welcome England to these tournaments so why shouldn't the favour be returned.

Under the current system teams like New Zealand and Australia almost never get to play UEFA or SA teams. NZ has qualified for the Confederations Cup and countries like Italy and Spain are threatening to not release players for this tournament. Arsene Wenger, the Arsenal manager, is trying to stop his French players having to compete at the Confederations Cup against New Zealand. How are the Oceania teams meant to get better when the other confederations go out of their way to avoid playing us?

All we want is a fair go.

Crowdie.

[pololo]

Originally posted by Crowdie
Interesting thread but I thought I would correct a few comments:

> Oceania's vote helped Germany/UEFA to win the
> rights to host the WC Finals. They probably
> appeased the Africans for losing the 2006 WC.

Charley Dempsey, the Oceania official at the WC vote, did not vote in the final round because UEFA threatened the Oceania confederation if they did not vote for Germany. At the same time pressure was coming to bear from Africa who wanted South Africa to host the 2006 WC. By not voting Dempsey protected the Oceania confederation from any "revenge tactics" from the losing confederation. Originally Oceania supported the English bid to host the 2006 WC.

> New Zealand actually has a shot. They are the
> only serious competition in Oceania for
> Australia. They are after all, the last Oceania
> team to make the World Cup. Things have changed
> a lot since then, but Australia isn't
> guaranteed to beat NZ.

True. Fiji is also making vast strides in their soccer.

> Australia, sorry, Oceania do not deserve an
> automatic place in the WC. They can't even beat
> a third placed Iranian team, or a 5th placed SA
> team.

If this system applied to sport then England (the poster of this message is from England) would not be allowed at the rugby, netball or cricket world cups (to name a few). Australia (and New Zealand) welcome England to these tournaments so why shouldn't the favour be returned.

Under the current system teams like New Zealand and Australia almost never get to play UEFA or SA teams. NZ has qualified for the Confederations Cup and countries like Italy and Spain are threatening to not release players for this tournament. Arsene Wenger, the Arsenal manager, is trying to stop his French players having to compete at the Confederations Cup against New Zealand. How are the Oceania teams meant to get better when the other confederations go out of their way to avoid playing us?

All we want is a fair go.

Crowdie.

Then you agree that it's all corruption that Oceania get's a free spot?

[Crowdie]

FIFA is made up of members elected by the confederations. If FIFA is corrupt, as many people on this board believe, then by definition the confederations are corrupt. So the people on this board that believe FIFA is corrupt should look at their confederations first.

The prize money for tournaments has become so huge and player's salaries have become so stupid that money appears to be the main driving force for some countries.

Winning money for getting into tournaments or winning tournaments is fine but what is each confederation/country using the money for? New Zealand is using the US$1,000,000 it gets for winning entry to the Confederations Cup to pay the players and develop youth soccer. That is a good use for prize money. What do your conferations use prize money for?

Crowdie

["Simply Ken"]

After the Iran v. Uruguay friendly, which was supposed to be a meaningless match with both teams using mostly their young players, I am totally disgusted with S.American teams and their football. The dirty and obnoxious Uruguayans, seeing themselves totally outclassed and trailing in the first half, responded by putting up a show of kick boxing. They eventually drew the game on a late own goal (deflected shot), and then won the penalty shoot out. The result wasn't important, and wasn't supposed to be important. But the way the Uruguayans behaved was outrageous. Any confederation that condones this kind of football should get no sympathy in the World Cup allocations.

From
http://sport.scmp.com/sportnews/ZZZMNYLYLBD.html


2003 CARLSBERG CUP

'They were beyond dirty' Kicking, spitting, punching - Iran up in arms over alleged treatment dished out by Uruguay on and off the pitch

Iran's Carlsberg Cup squad departed Hong Kong yesterday complaining bitterly about the physical treatment they suffered while losing Tuesday's brutal final to Uruguay.

The Asian Games champions were beaten in a penalty shootout after extra-time in a game which featured two red cards, two brawls - one of them between a Uruguayan player and his coach in the lull before the spot-kicks - and an endless stream of violent tackles and off-the-ball clashes.

The problems didn't finish at the stadium. Back at the teams' Royal Garden hotel in Tsim Sha Tsui, Uruguayan sweeper Diego Lugano did a remarkable job of traversing the language barrier to explain to some of the players that he was ready to fight Iranian wing-back Alireza Vahedinikbakht, even setting the time and place - outside, 2am.

The Esteghlal player had been the victim in the incident that marked the games' biggest flashpoint, a vicious kick by Uruguayan substitute Horacio Peralta in the 89th minute that brought both benches and stadium security staff on to the pitch for a prolonged bout of pushing, shoving, and in the case of Uruguayan midfielder Marcelo Sosa, who had been replaced 20 minutes earlier, punching.

"He [Peralta] did a scissors kick with my head," said a disgusted Vahedinikbakht. "Then they grabbed the referee's shirt and told him to be quiet. The number two [Lugano] came and spat in my face at one point, and then he sent me a message in the hotel to come out and fight. They were beyond dirty."

Meanwhile, Iranian centre-half Mohammad Nosrati complained that he was attacked outside the changing rooms before the start of the second period.

"During half-time in the tunnel the number 21 [Peralta) attacked me and punched me," alleged the Pas defender, adding that if the trip was meant to educate Iran's younger players about football in different parts of the world it worked.

"For that, it was a very good experience. In Iran, we used to hear that the South Americans - teams like Argentina and Uruguay - were very rough. Now we know it's true."

The president of the Iranian Football Federation, Dr Mohammad Dadgan, meanwhile, was determined to show the six-inch long stud marks left on and above the knee of teenage defender Hossein Kabei when the Uruguayan captain Martin Liguera fouled him in the opening minutes of the match.

"You win some and you lose some - we're not upset about the result, just the violence," said the 18-year-old Kabei. "Soccer has everything, but it shouldn't have this sort of behaviour and this sort of confrontation.

"I knew they would be rough, but I didn't expect them to be that rough and violent. It wasn't football. Every five minutes they would fight someone. I've never been involved in a match like that before. I've played a lot of football, but not this kind of football."

Uruguay coach Gustavo Ferrin would not be drawn on the Iranians' many grievances, saying only: "We disagreed with the referee. We had some differences during the game."

The Iranians are not going to be joining Danish captain Morten Wieghorst in collecting any kind of Fair Play award for their role in the trouble. While most of the players accepted that Iran were not completely innocent, most argued that as Hong Kong referee Fong Yau-fat lost control of the match, they had to stick up for each other.

"We didn't sit aside," conceded Nosrati. "We had to defend ourselves. You could see in the first five minutes that they were after us."

Insisted Kabei: "Iran were not at fault. When they are being so rough and violent you can't roll over. We had to defend ourselves."

Iran captain Yahya Golmohammadi, who barely disguised his disgust on the pitch with Mohsen Bayatiniya after the Iran substitute received his second yellow card with five minutes remaining, admitted afterwards that their young team didn't know how to cope with the Uruguayans.

"We didn't have enough experience for this kind of team," he said. "Especially when they started playing rough and hurting our players."

It seems unlikely IFF will make any formal protest about the incidents. Dadgan felt it was Uruguay's reputation that had suffered the most.

"It's a pity," he said. "Uruguay have a fine tradition in world football. But they must understand that it is possible for a team like Iran to beat them and that doesn't mean they have to respond with these tactics just because they think they are in danger of losing."

[pololo]

Originally posted by "Simply Ken"
After the Iran v. Uruguay friendly, which was supposed to be a meaningless match with both teams using mostly their young players, I am totally disgusted with S.American teams and their football. The dirty and obnoxious Uruguayans, seeing themselves totally outclassed and trailing in the first half, responded by putting up a show of kick boxing. They eventually drew the game on a late own goal (deflected shot), and then won the penalty shoot out. The result wasn't important, and wasn't supposed to be important. But the way the Uruguayans behaved was outrageous. Any confederation that condones this kind of football should get no sympathy in the World Cup allocations.

From
http://sport.scmp.com/sportnews/ZZZMNYLYLBD.html


2003 CARLSBERG CUP

'They were beyond dirty' Kicking, spitting, punching - Iran up in arms over alleged treatment dished out by Uruguay on and off the pitch

Iran's Carlsberg Cup squad departed Hong Kong yesterday complaining bitterly about the physical treatment they suffered while losing Tuesday's brutal final to Uruguay.

The Asian Games champions were beaten in a penalty shootout after extra-time in a game which featured two red cards, two brawls - one of them between a Uruguayan player and his coach in the lull before the spot-kicks - and an endless stream of violent tackles and off-the-ball clashes.

The problems didn't finish at the stadium. Back at the teams' Royal Garden hotel in Tsim Sha Tsui, Uruguayan sweeper Diego Lugano did a remarkable job of traversing the language barrier to explain to some of the players that he was ready to fight Iranian wing-back Alireza Vahedinikbakht, even setting the time and place - outside, 2am.

The Esteghlal player had been the victim in the incident that marked the games' biggest flashpoint, a vicious kick by Uruguayan substitute Horacio Peralta in the 89th minute that brought both benches and stadium security staff on to the pitch for a prolonged bout of pushing, shoving, and in the case of Uruguayan midfielder Marcelo Sosa, who had been replaced 20 minutes earlier, punching.

"He [Peralta] did a scissors kick with my head," said a disgusted Vahedinikbakht. "Then they grabbed the referee's shirt and told him to be quiet. The number two [Lugano] came and spat in my face at one point, and then he sent me a message in the hotel to come out and fight. They were beyond dirty."

Meanwhile, Iranian centre-half Mohammad Nosrati complained that he was attacked outside the changing rooms before the start of the second period.

"During half-time in the tunnel the number 21 [Peralta) attacked me and punched me," alleged the Pas defender, adding that if the trip was meant to educate Iran's younger players about football in different parts of the world it worked.

"For that, it was a very good experience. In Iran, we used to hear that the South Americans - teams like Argentina and Uruguay - were very rough. Now we know it's true."

The president of the Iranian Football Federation, Dr Mohammad Dadgan, meanwhile, was determined to show the six-inch long stud marks left on and above the knee of teenage defender Hossein Kabei when the Uruguayan captain Martin Liguera fouled him in the opening minutes of the match.

"You win some and you lose some - we're not upset about the result, just the violence," said the 18-year-old Kabei. "Soccer has everything, but it shouldn't have this sort of behaviour and this sort of confrontation.

"I knew they would be rough, but I didn't expect them to be that rough and violent. It wasn't football. Every five minutes they would fight someone. I've never been involved in a match like that before. I've played a lot of football, but not this kind of football."

Uruguay coach Gustavo Ferrin would not be drawn on the Iranians' many grievances, saying only: "We disagreed with the referee. We had some differences during the game."

The Iranians are not going to be joining Danish captain Morten Wieghorst in collecting any kind of Fair Play award for their role in the trouble. While most of the players accepted that Iran were not completely innocent, most argued that as Hong Kong referee Fong Yau-fat lost control of the match, they had to stick up for each other.

"We didn't sit aside," conceded Nosrati. "We had to defend ourselves. You could see in the first five minutes that they were after us."

Insisted Kabei: "Iran were not at fault. When they are being so rough and violent you can't roll over. We had to defend ourselves."

Iran captain Yahya Golmohammadi, who barely disguised his disgust on the pitch with Mohsen Bayatiniya after the Iran substitute received his second yellow card with five minutes remaining, admitted afterwards that their young team didn't know how to cope with the Uruguayans.

"We didn't have enough experience for this kind of team," he said. "Especially when they started playing rough and hurting our players."

It seems unlikely IFF will make any formal protest about the incidents. Dadgan felt it was Uruguay's reputation that had suffered the most.

"It's a pity," he said. "Uruguay have a fine tradition in world football. But they must understand that it is possible for a team like Iran to beat them and that doesn't mean they have to respond with these tactics just because they think they are in danger of losing."

If that really happened it doens't mean that Conmebol should lose spots.
Or are you saying South America don't deserve more spots?

[Oscar]

Seems to me the problem is with the referee who didn't do his job as opposed to with the Uruguayan team. Meh.

Dadgan felt it was Uruguay's reputation that had suffered the most.

I thought Uruguay was infamous for their 'hard' game. This only upholds their reputation. :D

[Heist]

Originally posted by Oscar
Seems to me the problem is with the referee who didn't do his job as opposed to with the Uruguayan team. Meh.

I thought Uruguay was infamous for their 'hard' game. This only upholds their reputation. :D

I'll partially agree and partialy strongly disagree if that match report is all true. I didn't see the match, but if that's all true the Uruguayans discgraced themselves, their country, their confederation, FIFA, AND the Referee.

I agree the referee has to take some blame for letting that kind of stuff go on, but when a team really wants to hack and not to play soccer they'll just do it. It takes a lot for a Ref to call off a game, although it sounds like maybe that's what should have been done.

Uruguay isn't a bad team... I wonder why they felt they had to resort to these tactics. This is supposed to be the beautiful game and there is such a thing as honor, at least there should be. I don't mind a good professional foul or two of four or ten, but blatant hacking of other players and fighting have no place in soccer and can't be blamed on the Ref. A 'Hard' game is one thing... Utterly dirty play is another.

["Simply Ken"]

Uruguay have a bad reputation even among South Americans, but S.American football (excepting Brazil) as a whole is prone to dirty antics. And such dirty tactics makes me totally unsympathetic to any claims that the region is somehow 'robbed' of a World Cup place when they are getting 40% of their teams automatically qualified to the event.

Against Iran, who had come with mostly a young squad being groomed for the Olympics, the Uruguayans were animals. Our young players were putting on a clinic on how to play the game, doing very well until the match was turned into a kick boxing exhibition. They come how having learned the worst lessons that exist in football.

I have seen, at least hints, of some the bad habits from other teams in our region being picked by our players. I would hate to see them learn about these kind of things now. I hate it because I would be ashamed, whether winning or losing, if Iran showcased itself with these tactics to the rest of the world.

Yet, for some reason, Uruguayans (and S.Americans more generally) have been totally oblivous to the image they present when they engage in these tactics! Something is culturally amiss, and whatever that is, needs to be fixed.

Anyway, the official report on the incidents gives a sense of only the times when the referee chose to act. Nonetheless, I thought it might be revealing.


“Time after time”

005th min Iran’s Hossenin Kaabi needs extensive treatment on knee injury after being fouled by Uruguay captain Martin Liguera

019th min Uruguay’s Julio Rodriguez receives the first yellow card of the game for cynically cutting down Ali Samereh

040th min After a tempestuous few minutes following Iran’s goal, Samereh is also shown for a revenge challenge on Rodriguez.

061st min Uruguay sweeper Diego Lugano is booked for elbowing Moharram Navidkia in the ribs off the ball

079th min Ten minutes after coming on Iran substitute Mohsen Bayatiniya is yellow-carded for dissent.

089th min Uruguyan substitute Horacio Peralta kicks Alireza Vahedinikbakht as he lies on the floor, sparking a brawl involving both teams, substitutes, coaching staff and stadium security. Paralta is shown a red card.

115th min Bayatiniya is shown a second yellow card and dismissed for obstructing Uruguayan goalkeeper Mauricio Nanni as tries to clear the ball

120th min After extra-time is over Uruguayan defender William Martinez and coach Gustava Ferrin aim punches at each other during the team’s preparations for the penalty shootout. Martinez injures a teammate in the process.

[Rafael Hernandez]

So South American doesn't deserve a spot because some crap Uruguayan team play dirty against Iran in the Carlsberg cup in 2003. Because god knows everything revolves around Iran. Didn't the Irish keeper say that Iranians were throwing live amunition in the stadium in their match against Iran in Tehran? Isn't that worse than fouls by the dirtiest team in South America ?