FA Cup winner instead of EPL 4th team in Champions League?

[marcin79]

Just an idea to discuss.

If FA Cup is definitely most famous domestic knock-out competition, if FA Cup final is probably more interesting for fans abroad than ony other domestic cup final...

Looking at this long tradition, and knowing that FA Cup triumph means so much for English players (probably more than winning Italian, French, Polish Cup etc in these countries)...

dont you think that FA Cup winner should be prized with something better than UEFA Cup spot?

What do ou think about the idea, that FA Cup winner could be prized with Champions League Qual spot, instead of a team who finishes 4th in Premiership.

What has bigger worth for you: 4th place in EPL or FA Cup?

Then it would be like
Champions League: English Champion, League Runner-up (automatically) , League 3rd team, FA Cup winner (through quals)
UEFA CUP: League 4th team, League Cup winner, League 5th team (if 3 places allowed).

It would add extra taste to FA Cup too.

[MasterShake29]

Absolutely!

I would further add that if the winner also makes the top 3 in the EPL, that the cup loser go to the UEFA Cup (as they would now) and the CL spot revert to the 4th place EPL team. This way you have to win it to get in.

[marcin79]

Absolutely!

I would further add that if the winner also makes the top 3 in the EPL, that the cup loser go to the UEFA Cup (as they would now) and the CL spot revert to the 4th place EPL team. This way you have to win it to get in.

Yes, surely. That would be honest way.

[Forza AZ]

I don't like this idea. The CL is for the best teams in each country, and the Cup winner is usually not one of the best teams. To determine the best teams it's better to look at 38 matches in the league, then to only a few matches in the Cup.

[marcin79]

I don't like this idea. The CL is for the best teams in each country, and the Cup winner is usually not one of the best teams. To determine the best teams it's better to look at 38 matches in the league, then to only a few matches in the Cup.

Yes, but the best teams would have still 3 spots...

[Forza AZ]

Yes, but the best teams would have still 3 spots...
But the 4th placed team is better than the Cup winner, if they finish lower than 4th. So they shouldn't go to the CL in stead of number 4.

[marcin79]

But the 4th placed team is better than the Cup winner, if they finish lower than 4th. So they shouldn't go to the CL in stead of number 4.

OK, but if you were for example Newcastle fan, what would you prefer:

- 5th place in League (UEFA Cup spot)
- 8th place in League and FA Cup (UEFA Cup spot)

Finishing 5th means team is better than finishing 8th but which situation would be better?

[MasterShake29]

But the 4th placed team is better than the Cup winner, if they finish lower than 4th. So they shouldn't go to the CL in stead of number 4.

Well, the Cup winner actually won something, so don't they deserve to be rewarded? Fans want you to win trophies, no one starts the season chanting "we want 4th!". At least they shouldn't.

[BocaFan]

OK, but if you were for example Newcastle fan, what would you prefer:

- 5th place in League (UEFA Cup spot)
- 8th place in League and FA Cup (UEFA Cup spot)

Finishing 5th means team is better than finishing 8th but which situation would be better?

I guess in this case, its possible that the 8th place team would be better than the 5th (provided there's a small point difference b/w 5th and 8th). However, why 8th? It could be 18th theoretically.

But my second point is that it doesn't really matter much. When was the last time a team not in the top 4 in England won the FA Cup?

[BocaFan]

Well, the Cup winner actually won something, so don't they deserve to be rewarded? Fans want you to win trophies, no one starts the season chanting "we want 4th!". At least they shouldn't.

The FA Cup winner is already rewarded with the trophy, excitement and money that comes with winning the FA Cup. In this new scenerio, the 4th place team won't be rewarded with anything for having a good season over 38 matches.

[Toon³]

OK, but if you were for example Newcastle fan, what would you prefer:

- 5th place in League (UEFA Cup spot)
- 8th place in League and FA Cup (UEFA Cup spot)

Finishing 5th means team is better than finishing 8th but which situation would be better?

Any fan would take winning something over league position, apart from relegation.

But if you did this what would happen if the winner of the FA cups were champions and had already qualified for the league? Would the runner up in the FA cup get the CL place. This would mean that a few seasons ago Milwall would have qualified for the CL! A lower league club doesn't always get to the final but it does happen so would you say only Premier league teams can qualify for the CL? UEFA won't allow that so you'd have to let them qualify, so they have a 3rd round qualifying match against someone and will most likely loose or just scrap through. This would mean the space was wasted. This could be said of even the premiership teams outside of the top 8.

The CL should be based on league placing only, because then the best clubs can get into it.

[MasterShake29]

The FA Cup winner is already rewarded with the trophy, excitement and money that comes with winning the FA Cup. In this new scenerio, the 4th place team won't be rewarded with anything for having a good season over 38 matches.

They came 4th, why do they deserve such a huge reward? Besides, if someone in the top 3 wins the FA Cup (not exactly an unusual occurance these days), then they would get the last CL spot just as they do now. Otherwise, they get a UEFA Cup spot, which is something.

Any fan would take winning something over league position, apart from relegation.

But if you did this what would happen if the winner of the FA cups were champions and had already qualified for the league? Would the runner up in the FA cup get the CL place. This would mean that a few seasons ago Milwall would have qualified for the CL! A lower league club doesn't always get to the final but it does happen so would you say only Premier league teams can qualify for the CL? UEFA won't allow that so you'd have to let them qualify, so they have a 3rd round qualifying match against someone and will most likely loose or just scrap through. This would mean the space was wasted. This could be said of even the premiership teams outside of the top 8.

The CL should be based on league placing only, because then the best clubs can get into it.

Here's how I'd do it: If the FA Cup winner is also...

League Champs - The champs win the double, runner-up gets the other direct spot, 3rd & 4th into the qualifying round.
Runners-Up - Same as above, without that double thing.
3rd or 4th - FA Cup & league champions qualify directly, 2nd and the team that doesn't win the cup into the qualifying round.
Anywhere outside the top 4 - FA Cup and League champs into group stage, 2nd & 3rd into qualifying round, 4th & 5th (and League Cup winners or 6th) into UEFA Cup.
If you prefer that the FA Cup winner makes the CL qualifying round instead, then so be it.

So, no, Millwall lost the cup final so they'd get into the UEFA Cup, just as they did anyway. As for only clubs in the top 4 doing it, well that didn't do Everton much good.

[Clan]

But my second point is that it doesn't really matter much. When was the last time a team not in the top 4 in England won the FA Cup?

Chelsea.

[Clan]

A very nobel idea.
However, the reward of playing in the best club competiton in the world, should go to the acheivements of an entire season, where luck will NOT keep you away from the better teams as they knock each other out.

A half dozen games, often against somewhat 'lesser' competition does not, rightly so, entitle a club to negate a 38 game schedule reward of another.

[Toon³]

They came 4th, why do they deserve such a huge reward? Besides, if someone in the top 3 wins the FA Cup (not exactly an unusual occurance these days), then they would get the last CL spot just as they do now. Otherwise, they get a UEFA Cup spot, which is something.



Here's how I'd do it: If the FA Cup winner is also...

League Champs - The champs win the double, runner-up gets the other direct spot, 3rd & 4th into the qualifying round.
Runners-Up - Same as above, without that double thing.
3rd or 4th - FA Cup & league champions qualify directly, 2nd and the team that doesn't win the cup into the qualifying round.
Anywhere outside the top 4 - FA Cup and League champs into group stage, 2nd & 3rd into qualifying round, 4th & 5th (and League Cup winners or 6th) into UEFA Cup.
If you prefer that the FA Cup winner makes the CL qualifying round instead, then so be it.

So, no, Millwall lost the cup final so they'd get into the UEFA Cup, just as they did anyway. As for only clubs in the top 4 doing it, well that didn't do Everton much good.


That seems hugely complex for something that is working just fine as it is now.

Last season Newcastle beat Chelsea in the cup...The league will always judge the best teams.

[rangers00]

The FA Cup can be won by a bottom table team. It can be won by a team in the 1st division. Do you want such a team to represent your country in the Champions league?

Remember, such a team's failure is going to hurt your coefficient. 5 years down the road, having teams like WBA, Sunderland, Ipswich, etc. representing you in the CL will cost you a berth in the CL. Is that what you want to do to England's berths?

[MasterShake29]

The FA Cup can be won by a bottom table team. It can be won by a team in the 1st division. Do you want such a team to represent your country in the Champions league?

Remember, such a team's failure is going to hurt your coefficient. 5 years down the road, having teams like WBA, Sunderland, Ipswich, etc. representing you in the CL will cost you a berth in the CL. Is that what you want to do to England's berths?

Yes, God forbid a team not named Manchester United, Arsenal, Chelsea, or Liverpool represent England in the Champions League. That would be awful.

Scotland is in big trouble because Hearts lead the league. Can't have a team like them make the Champions League at the expense of say Rangers.

[rangers00]

Yes, God forbid a team not named Manchester United, Arsenal, Chelsea, or Liverpool represent England in the Champions League. That would be awful.

Scotland is in big trouble because Hearts lead the league. Can't have a team like them make the Champions League at the expense of say Rangers.

I don't understand your logic at all. If a Sunderland/Norwich/Portsmouth represent England in the CL at the place of Man U/Liverpool/Arsenal, simply because it had won the FA Cup, do you think it would be as competitive?

No? then do you think it would hurt England' coefficient down the road?

If Hearts grab the CL spot by winning the league, then it must be a better team than Rangers/Celtic. Why is a better team representing Scotland a problem then?

[MasterShake29]

That seems hugely complex for something that is working just fine as it is now.

Last season Newcastle beat Chelsea in the cup...The league will always judge the best teams.

It's not that complicated, not really anymore complicated then qualification for Europe is now. You're just used to it so it doesn't seem complicated, but depending on who wins or makes the final of the FA Cup it can be.

Yes, Newcastle beat Chelsea (mostly thanks to the latter making all subs at 46' and playing virtually the entire 2nd half with 10 men, but I digress) but that was in the quarterfinal(?). Who was in the final? Arsenal and Manchester United of course.

With those two meeting in the final, the result of the final meant nothing in terms of Europe. And that seems to be becoming the norm, since it's not uncommon for one of the top 4 to make the final. I think that might detract from it just a bit.

In my scenario, the only way the final doesn't determine who goes where is when the top 2 also make the final, and then the double is on the line.

Yes, it's not impossible for a 2nd division team to make it, and they might drag the UEFA coefficient down (or they might not). So make Spain and Italy (the other two nations with 4 spots) to live under the same rules, so that it's a level playing field. Yes, the cups there aren't as big there as in England, but with a CL spot on the line I bet they quickly become so.

It also differentiates it from the Carling Cup, since the winners of both get a UEFA Cup spot.

[MasterShake29]

I don't understand your logic at all. If a Sunderland/Norwich/Portsmouth represent England in the CL at the place of Man U/Liverpool/Arsenal, simply because it had won the FA Cup, do you think it would be as competitive?

No? then do you think it would hurt England' coefficient down the road?

If that happens, it means one of the "big" clubs didn't finish in the top 3 of the EPL. So they're not even in the top 3 of their league. If you can't do that, I say you have no complaint. If say Sunderland (yeah right) win the FA Cup, they accomplished something, winning the oldest trophy in England. They are champions of something. Thus, I'd give them a spot in the Champions League.

Might it hurt the coefficient? Maybe. But 4th place doesn't mean you're a world beater, reference Everton this year (and didn't Newcastle do it a couple years back?).

If that's the big worry, make Spain and Italy play under the same rules, that way it's fair for everyone.