Open Cup Qualifying Format 2003

[SJJ]

Sorry for posting the entire article, and not just a URL, but this was on the http://www.uslsoccer.com/ main page, not a subpage:

USL announces Open Cup qualifying formats

A-League to play head-to-head series again in 2003

Friday, December 13, 2002

TAMPA, FL - United Soccer Leagues announced today the formats in which its three men’s leagues will determine its entrants into the 2003 Lamar Hunt US Open Cup.

"Although we are still awaiting the finalization of the tournament from US Soccer, our qualification formats are complete," said Director of USL League Operations Tim Holt.

The qualification formats will not change much from the systems used in 2002. The A-League will play in a set of two-leg aggregate score series to determine its entrants with the D3 Pro League and Premier Development League teams playing four qualification matches to determine who advances.

"We found the A-League system to be very well received last year," said Holt. "It essentially adds another round to the tournament for the A-League teams where they are playing an actual opponent rather than trying to advance from a group as is necessitated by the structure of other two leagues."

The Milwaukee Rampage will receive an automatic berth into the tournament as the 2002 A-League Champions. The remaining 14 American A-League sides have been matched into seven pairings based heavily on geography but also with consideration to competitive balance measured by 2002 records. The two teams in each of the pairings will meet in the regular season by May 26 (Memorial Day) in a pair of matches that will double as Open Cup qualifiers as well as league matches. The games will be played using regular season league rules, including overtime, with the aggregate score determining the winner. Should the series be tied on aggregate score after the conclusion of the second game, FIFA penalty kicks will be utilized to determine who advances.

2003 US Open Cup A-League Qualification Pairings
Atlanta Silverbacks v. Charlotte Eagles
Charleston Battery v. Virginia Beach Mariners
Cincinnati Riverhawks v. Minnesota Thunder
El Paso Patriots v. Indiana Blast
Pittsburgh Riverhounds v. Richmond Kickers
Portland Timbers v. Seattle Sounders
Rochester Raging Rhinos v. Syracuse

Should the tournament format provide more than eight berths to the A-League, wild cards will be awarded in the order of 2002 regular season champion Seattle, 2002 finalist Richmond and, finally, by highest point percentage of non-qualified teams through league matches of May 26.

In the D3 Pro League, the 2002 Champion Long Island Rough Riders will receive an automatic berth into the tournament with the remaining berths, amount to be determined by the Open Cup tournament format, to be filled by the teams with the best point total in four qualification matches.

The PDL will use the same format for the seventh straight year, sending the best team from each group (the league’s conferences) based on four qualification games. Additional wild card berths, if available, will be awarded on a league-wide basis.

[Richie]

You know this is all bullshiite right?

It is called "Open Cup" because it is open to anybody even a youth team can enter this tournament.

There is no best team of the group or will play in a set of two-leg aggregate score series to determine its entrants. That's all bullshiite.

All it takes for a team to be in the Challenge Cup which was the original name of the open cup is fill out a application and pay a 100 dollar fee, and your in.

---------------------------

Now in youth soccer the state cup that can lead a team to winning the state, from that you are automaticly in the Reginals win that your in the National championship round win that your the National Champion.

You don't even have to be a travel team to enter you can even be for instance an AYSO rec team and enter just fill in the application and pay 50 dollars I think it is.

[csh2000]

Originally posted by Richie
It is called "Open Cup" because it is open to anybody even a youth team can enter this tournament.

I was under the impression that it was Amateur/Adult teams (USASA) teams that were able to enter, but not youth (USYS/AYSO) teams.

I've heard some dates tossed around and it sounds like it will be all Wednesdays, finishing before the end of the MLS Regular Season.

[monster]

http://fsrb1.com/refs/_public/OpCpPolh.pdf

Some highlights:

Section 201. Categories of competition
(a) The U. S. Open Cup shall have the following categories of competition: (1) Amateur
Division category; (2) Professional Outdoor Division III category; (3) Professional Outdoor Division
II category; and (4) Professional Outdoor Division I category. All professional outdoor teams
registered and competing in a professional league shall be required to enter the Open Cup competition
annually. A youth amateur team applying to compete shall compete through the Amateur Division category.

Section 202. Team eligibility
To enter the U.S. Open Cup, a team must be an outdoor soccer team of a club or league of an
Organization Member of the Federation. The team must be playing in a regular club or league
competition of at least 4 teams and the competition must consist of at least 10 matches each
seasonal year.

[Richie]

Our under 19 team played in it. They played in the CJSL youth soccer league.

[SJJ]

Monster, I think you might have an old copy of the policy, because the current one calls the "ameteur" qualifying "Adult Council."

http://www.ussoccer.com/templates/includes/services/0203PolicyManual.pdf

(Plus, I have no idea what Richie is complaining about.)

[Richie]

Not complaining just saying all the teams can be in it in the MLS, A-league, usl if they want fill out an application and the hundred. Then you are in the one game elimination tournament that's all. It is not anymore complicated then that.

[monster]

Originally posted by SJJ
Monster, I think you might have an old copy of the policy, because the current one calls the "ameteur" qualifying "Adult Council."

http://www.ussoccer.com/templates/includes/services/0203PolicyManual.pdf

(Plus, I have no idea what Richie is complaining about.)

Could be. I just did a search on U.S. Open Cup qualifying rules or something like that and that document popped up.

[Preston North End]

Originally posted by csh2000
I was under the impression that it was Amateur/Adult teams (USASA) teams that were able to enter, but not youth (USYS/AYSO) teams.

I've heard some dates tossed around and it sounds like it will be all Wednesdays, finishing before the end of the MLS Regular Season.

Youth (USYS/AYSO) sides could enter, if they have $200, play in a league of 4 or more clubs (playing 10 matches per seasonal year) AND are registered with an Organization that is a member of the USSF.

I think USYS is a member of the USSF.

They then enter the competition at the USASA qualifiers.

The USASA, PDL, D3 (now Pro Select League), and A-League qualifiers are similar to what is done in Italy.

The Italian Cup groups the Serie A (two promoted clubs), B, & C clubs into groups of four on a regional basis for their qualifing round. This is similar to the way U.S. Soccer runs the U.S. Open Cup.

What I would like to see - and I think this is what Richie is complaining about - is a straight knock out Cup competition.

The USASA could have a prelim rounds - as done in England - that lead up to the First Round. I think all clubs from the two "National Leagues" (MLS & USL) should enter at the Second Round.

BTW, the USASA is in essence a collection of regional or local leagues.

For 2003 the U.S. Open Cup could be organized this way...

Prelims (MAR & APR): USASA clubs compete on regional basis to eliminate all but 16 (four from each region).

First Round (MAY): 78 clubs (14 PSL, 48 PDL, 16 USASA). Match-ups drawn on regional basis.

Second Round (JUN): 64 (10 MLS, 15 A-LGE, 39 First Round winners). Regional brackets through to the Final.

Third Round (JUN): 32 Second Round winners.

Fourth Round (JUL): 16 Third Round Winners.

Quarterfinals (AUG): 8 Fourth Round winners.

Semifinals (SEP): 4 QF winners.

Final (OCT): 2 SF winners.

Note: One PDL club (Jersey Shore) is provisional and may not have to enter the Open Cup. The number of USASA teams advancing from the Prelim Round would need to be adjusted or maybe the USASA Open Cup winner - AAC Eagles (IL) - should receive a bye to the First Round.

[SJJ]

Preston's (yeah, I'll just call him that) post was rambling in too many directions. I'll try to get to each of his points.

This isn't Italy or England. Sounds like Preston has a little E-snobbery going on, but I'm not really interested in how Italy runs their cup competition.

The tournament IS A STRAIGHT KNOCKOUT tournament, from the round of 32 on. The most teams in the main draw of the "modern" era has been 36.

The USSF runs the tournament in a way that works best for them: the leagues are given the task of handling qualifying, the USSF runs the tournament proper. The main difference in this respect, between USA and Europe, is that in Europe the national associations and the leagues are one-in-the-same. In the USA, they are seperate groups. Having the USSF run qualifying may be a bit overstepping its bounds. So what happens is the USSF (eventually) tells the leagues how many bids each get, and they run their qualifying accordingly.

Preston's format has a whopping 103 teams, about 3.5 times the number of teams in recent years, or about 3 times the modern maximum. Does that many teams make the tournament any better? Smaller is better in this case; resist the temptation to always ask for more teams, more teams, more teams.

Although I do see the tournament going to 48 teams if MLS expands to 16 teams: 16 MLS, 16 AL, 16 lower-division teams.

[jimmyco]

I should know better than to jump into these things, but here goes...

A few things:

1) I don't see any snobbery, "E-" or otherwise, in Preston's post. Not, in PRESTON'S...

2) "Does that many teams make the tournament any better" (why is 103 teams bad)? 103 might be a bit many, but I think it does make it better. I think it brings more attention to the tournament. It is, after all, the NATIONAL championship. Why do you believe 32 teams are better?

I mean, how many college carryball scores are in the paper on Sundays? 200? 400? Lots of teams, lots of games, lots of coverage is my point here.

Frankly, I like his idea on this. I would lower the number of amateur qualifiers a little bit - down to 26, from a pool of 52 teams - 28 USASA (7 from each ODP region), and 24 PDL (3 from each division). These 52 would be paired up and the single-elimination phase begins.

All of the teams would be drawn in the first round - 10 MLS, 15 ALG, 13 PSL, 26 Amateur - for a total of 64. Could make upsets a little more common.

This variation uses 90 teams between the final amateur qualification round and the first round of the finals. A very good cross-section of the country here potentially. Maybe this generates a lot of, or at least more, interest in the OC.

I would love to see this tournament get bigger. MUCH bigger. Maybe then it will get the respect it deserves. MLS Cup shouldn't be the biggest final of the year.

My two cents.

[SJJ]

Originally posted by jimmyco
"Does that many teams make the tournament any better" (why is 103 teams bad)? 103 might be a bit many, but I think it does make it better. I think it brings more attention to the tournament. It is, after all, the NATIONAL championship. Why do you believe 32 teams are better?

I mean, how many college carryball scores are in the paper on Sundays? 200? 400? Lots of teams, lots of games, lots of coverage is my point here.

I think 32 (although I would eventually go up to 48) teams are better, because the games are better. Adding more teams just adds more bad games. Just how many of your 90 teams would YOU actually watch?

Are you saying that the LHUSOC is as popular as U.S. college football? Just adding more teams won't get any results in the Sunday fishwrap.

If "MLS Cup shouldn't be the biggest final of the year," then what should be? The NCAA Championship? I don't get that line.

[jimmyco]

Point by point:

Originally posted by SJJ
I think 32 (although I would eventually go up to 48) teams are better, because the games are better. Adding more teams just adds more bad games. Just how many of your 90 teams would YOU actually watch?

I'll concede the point of the POSSIBILITY of more bad games, but how many CFB games in the Sunday paper are 40-, 50-, or 60-point blowouts? There will always be bad games (one-sided or 0-0). I'm just not convinced that more games is worse for the tournament.

As for how many of the 90 teams I would actually watch - I would be, as I have been for the past several years, in front of my computer "watching" all the contests, into the late hours. I have my team that I WOULD go watch, if we ever hosted an OC game more than once every 4 years. Besides, it's not my place to go watch all of the games, it is up to the supporters to go out and support their teams, as I'm sure you do when your lads are competing.

Anyway, if I could be everywhere at once (to watch all 90 teams), I would be a VERY rich man, and this problem would be being discussed by college basketball fans because the "Final Four" as we know it would be the U.S. Open Cup...

Originally posted by SJJ
Are you saying that the LHUSOC is as popular as U.S. college football? Just adding more teams won't get any results in the Sunday fishwrap.

No, I'm not saying that the OC is as popular as college carryball. Not yet anyway. Perhaps I should have said the 'potential of lots of coverage'. The thinking being the more of the country involved, the more press at local levels, with a possible spike in national coverage. Hopeful thinking on my part perhaps.

Originally posted by SJJ
If "MLS Cup shouldn't be the biggest final of the year," then what should be? The NCAA Championship? I don't get that line.

The biggest final of the year should be the Open Cup. It should be, in my opinion, a more prestigious final than any of the league's finals. It is SUPPOSED to be the national championship after all.

[Footie Man]

I like the idea of bigger. I'm not even sure exactly why. It just seems like it makes things more challenging and less predictable. Sweden apparently has 92 teams in it's equivalent. No reason we couldn't expand it, really, as long as expenses are properly addressed.

Also, one thing that ticks me off is that apparently MLS is getting several byes (to the fourth round, I think?). This more or less assures that an MLS squad will win the open cup.

Maybe one way of doing this tourney is to have 4 brackets of 16 teams each:

Bracket 1: All MLS teams and some A-League teams
Bracket 2: A-League, some PSL
Bracket 3: some PSL, some PDL
Bracket 4: some PDL, some USASA

I wish I could recall how many teams there are in each league for this year. Sorry, therefore, for the vagueness in this regard.

But anyway, in the first round, you'd have the teams from bracket 1 drawn with the teams from B4. The teams from B2 would be drawn to play the teams from B3. Then you'd have a knockout-style competition.

Question remaining, how do you pick teams for each bracket, because in my scheme, the tournament would be big, but there still wouldn't be room for everybody.