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ursula
08 Sep 2005, 10:33 AM
About a month ago we saw a MLS all-star team sacrificed at the Real Madrid altar. A bunch of good players who never played together (some didn't even know each other beforehand) were slapped together had one brief practice then bam! weren't able to string three passes together or display any sort of coordinated activity together.


Last night @ Guatemala City we saw a group of MLS all-stars (and a couple of Reading all-stars) who have played together more than the ones who went to madrid mainly because many of these guys went to Madrid, try to play a coherent game against a motivated, desperate team. What we saw was a team, particularly on offense, who had trouble stringing three passes together, the result being no goals scored.

And we are surprised that this happened?

Is Arena surprised this happened?

I (me, ursula) tend to think that if you hope for success from a soccer team that has just been slapped together you had better make sure that you put those players where they are comfortable. That a coach has to be careful in being over rigid in setting a formation and the roles that he expect these new players to play. For instance if you have a speed forward who likes service on the ground that he can run onto then it would be best to find a midfielder who could be in place to do that. If you have a midfielder who likes to pinch in and run give and gos with his forwards and other mid, then if possible allow him to do that. etc.


Of course it's not quite that simple. I think Arena had two conflicting goals for last night's game:

1) To see if a bunch of players have the physical ability to play on the international level and,

2) To see if those players can play in a formation that he likes to use, the 442 diamond midfield.

What we saw was that on defense which is where a coach can most impact what the players do, and thus make the #2 goal easily attainable, he could get a fair evaluation of Albright, Marshall, Conrad, Vanney, and Hanneman. What we learned didn't surprise anyone really: Conrad played well in the Gold Cup against similar opposition. Albright has shown glimpses that he can do the same and like Conrad, he did. Vanney still looks lost at left back- no surprise there either. marshall was the biggest surprise mainly in that this was a step up in competition for him. He did fine. Having a veteran d-mid like Mastroeni also helped the defense.

It's possible that we learned that to go from MLS to CONCACAF competition is not really a step up for MLS defenders. That Arena could go deeper into his MLS pocket and come up with several more defenders who could play adequately in CONCACAF at their respective positions.

Ah, but that's the rub, their respective positions. To be fair to Vanney, he doesn't play left back in a 442 with Dallas. In the Gold Cup after the canada game, arena basically alluded to that. Yet we saw Greg out there again, doing what he's poor at. (Actually I thought he did better in this game than at the Gold Cup but that's not saying much.)

But Vanney is an example of what can go wrong if you ask players to both step up in competition and play a role they aren't used to, and so we now go to the offense.

I think outside of TT all the offensive players were asked to play against type. To varying degrees is was like asking, oh, orlando Bloom to play the lead role in a movie (substitute Clint Dempsey for Orlando here.) neither Bloom nor Dempsey are comfortable doing that at this point in their careers and it shows if they are unreasonably asked to do so.

Get what I'm saying? Asking Dempsey to be the a-mid in a diamond is asking for no offense. It's not fair to demand that of him in MLS and its criminal to ask him to do that in CONCACAF.

And of course doing so has huge ripple effects. Dempsey is not the one to lay through balls to Cunny's feet to run onto. That should have been Mr. Give-and-go himself. Convey. But Convey in this game seemed more concerned about staying wide than what he normally likes to do- pinch in and interact on the dribble with the forwards. (Contrast Convey in this game with how he acted in the T&T game. Big difference.) So Convey was nowhere near Cunningham and thus a possible good connection didn't materialize.

Quaranta, like Convey, is also not a true winger. He doesn't like to do the run-to-the-corner-and-huck-a-prayer-into-the-middle thing and he rarely does it with his club. He can play on the right side of midfield, but he's gonna want to move to the middle even more than Convey does and look to interact with his fellow attackers from there. If he doesn't do that , he looks to change the point of attack. But he had no "foil" in this game, no one who would play his game like happens at DC United, until Johnson subbed in, although if Convey had moved to the middle more than something would have happened.

So ultimately you had five attacking players who were out of place- with each other and with their responsibilities. From that it's hard to evaluate if a player can play internationally unless they really mess up with some basic soccer fundamentals. The only one who did that was Twellman and his encounters with his chest.

Arena should have seen all this by halftime. I'm sure he did. But he kept his formation, kept the players uncomfortable and thus missed a good opportunity to evaluate said players. He should have adjusted at halftime, gotten the attackers all closer together so that they could communicate and play off each other and not worry about the scoreline. Afterall, it stands to reason that if MLS defenders, playing in their correct positions, can play the CONCACAF game, then it stands to reason that MLS attackers can do the same. Instead we saw more of the same- the attackers all 20+ yards away from each other most of the time, sending hopeful balls that on their club teams would have connected but since their club teammates weren't there went to empty space.

Totally frustrating and I hope for the Costa Rica game Arena learns that he must adjust if he's gonna play so many new faces.

owendylan
08 Sep 2005, 10:50 AM
I wouldn't get upset about who played where in the game that much. Arena has typically done a good job of putting players in a position to be successful on the field. With his releasing almost all of the euro players to go back home he limited his own options and he made the best of a decent situation.

Someone ought to tell Reading Convey's not a winger. Maybe he didn't pinch in as much this game because Arena told him not to, that he wanted to keep Guatemala spread out in order to open the middle of the field for Dempsey to fill in space behind the forwards on runs into the box.

I don't know what is up with Dempsey. He can play A-mid or forward in MLS. Don't think he has the mind to play A-Mid at the international level but it was good to see the experiment to see if he could make the leap and I thnk that's what Arena was looking at. Dempey brings a lot of energy to a game and can get into dangerous positions in the box. Maybe Arena thinks he can harness that into a certain type of A-mid/3rd forward that can cause teams problems.

Quaranta was kind of a puzzle. We're not sure what Arena's instructions to him were but he didn't do any real attacking down the flank. We know he can do it but just didn't. I think his problem is he's a tweener. Outside mid/A-mid/forward. He doesn't really excel at any one position which is good and bad. It shows versatility but also his limitation. He did seem to concentrate more on defense in this game, maybe Arena wanted him to hold back some to help out Albright.

Matt in the Hat
08 Sep 2005, 10:51 AM
If Twellman or EJ finished either of their wide open opportunites, we wouldn't be having this conversation

numerista
08 Sep 2005, 11:00 AM
If Twellman or EJ finished either of their wide open opportunites, we wouldn't be having this conversation

Sure, we would. At this point, many of us don't care about the scoreline.

GoDC
08 Sep 2005, 11:01 AM
But is the coach right to only put players in a role where they are comfortable? These guys need to prove that they can do anything required in Germany if they want to make the team. Say we have two injuries and two supsensions at any point in Germany. One of the lower guys on the roster is going to need to step up and perform. They won't get to choose their position.

drew_VT_6
08 Sep 2005, 11:04 AM
So ultimately you had five attacking players who were out of place- with each other and with their responsibilities. From that it's hard to evaluate if a player can play internationally unless they really mess up with some basic soccer fundamentals. The only one who did that was Twellman and his encounters with his chest.

Yes, Arena ran an uncontrolled experiment and the results are all but useless. That's why it's fair to be upset with the way Arena started this game.

ctruppi
08 Sep 2005, 11:04 AM
About a month ago we saw a MLS all-star team sacrificed at the Real Madrid altar. A bunch of good players who never played together (some didn't even know each other beforehand) were slapped together had one brief practice then bam! weren't able to string three passes together or display any sort of coordinated activity together.....

I didn't want to quote your entire post, but I have to say that this is one of the finest analysis I've read on these boards and I couln't agree more. I truly hope Cunningham isn't left in the cold because of last night's game because Arena simply screwed up. While I love Bruce and have never called for his firing, I have always been puzzled by the way in which he brings in some younger guys and also his sub patterns during games is frustrating to say the least. Last night, we saw both of those negative traits in action. He absolutely had to put Landon in for Dempsey coming out for the 2nd half and give his offense minutes with a true int'l AM.

Also, playing Vanney serves absolutely no purpose. We know what he can (and generally can't) do. The results didn't matter. Why the hell not try a new, young guy there? It's shockingly irrational to play Vanney any longer until next summer. If noone else steps up to displace him, well then he's back in. It almost seems to me that Bruce has decided Vanney is his guy and won't play someone else there for fear that he might look better!

galperin
08 Sep 2005, 11:05 AM
I think Arena did EXACTLY what he should have against Guat. This is the perfect time to test players. So what if players are out of position? Come Germany '06, Bruce is going to take players who can play several positions. He has to. He only gets to bring 23, so he has to look at players who can play more than 1 position. One of the best ways to see if someone can do this, is to play them out of place. The other reason to play them out of place is simply to get them experience on the field.

Now, I am not saying each one of the 23 HAS to be able to play multiple spots. Gooch is only going to play center back. McBride is only going to play target, but most of the other players can play in multiple spots. For example:
LD: up top, Amid, Lmid, Rmid
JOB: LB, Amid, Dmid, Lmid
Lewis: LB, LM
Convey: LB, LM
Reyna: anywhere in midfield
Boca: LB, CB
Pablo: Dmid, CB

These are just examples. Bruce likely wants to see if players like Clint Dempsey can contribute from multiple spots. And he wants to see if they can contribute well in important games.

And even those who are only going to play 1 position (Chad Marshall for example), need to show Bruce they can handle the pressure, and YES, play next to people they are not used to playing with. Can they communicate?, can they take leadership responsibilities?, Can they handle the atmosphere?, etc, etc.

I like what Bruce did vs Guat; even if they did look ugly (and they did). That game was NOT about results. It was about testing players.

Thomas19
08 Sep 2005, 11:08 AM
I feel this was 70% experiment, 30% result. I have no problem with placing a large amount of responseability (sp) on the shoulders of Dempsey. In the Future it could vary well be his responsibility to carry. Im in the opinion that Convey could be a fantastic outside mid. His workrate is amazing, not to mention his growing ability to get by his opponent down the wing. Just because a player does not have the habits of a "typical" person playing that position does not mean they cant be effective there. Convey likes to come to the center of the field, fine, couple that with his growing ability to beat flank players and he has an extra ability over two deminsion wingers. To expect anything but a disjointed performance last night would be stupid. Of course players are going to struggle with fluid play in that situation. However i feel this game carries a huge amount of importance for the rising stars of the US. Throw the baby birds out of the nest, so they have to fly. I can see no better way to produce "seasoned" stars then to get them seasoned.

ctruppi
08 Sep 2005, 11:10 AM
But is the coach right to only put players in a role where they are comfortable? These guys need to prove that they can do anything required in Germany if they want to make the team. Say we have two injuries and two supsensions at any point in Germany. One of the lower guys on the roster is going to need to step up and perform. They won't get to choose their position.

This is complete bull! For example, Cunningham is a very fast, good on the ball and in space type forward. We didn't get to see him at all last night because Bruce didn't have anyone in there who could give him the service he needs. I don't want to see Cunningham tracking back and playing wide. He brings a unique talent to the table and could be very useful in Germany in a very specific role. Again, we didn't see if he could actually accomplish that role, because Bruce screwed up!

chad
08 Sep 2005, 11:10 AM
That game was NOT about results. It was about testing players.
I think the disagreement is not about this. If I understand ursula's point (which I am not sure I do since it seems to be critical of Arena. ;)), the criticism is that Arena didn't put out a line-up that actually tested the players in the best meaningful way.

GoDC
08 Sep 2005, 11:12 AM
This is complete bull! For example, Cunningham is a very fast, good on the ball and in space type forward. We didn't get to see him at all last night because Bruce didn't have anyone in there who could give him the service he needs. I don't want to see Cunningham tracking back and playing wide. He brings a unique talent to the table and could be very useful in Germany in a very specific role. Again, we didn't see if he could actually accomplish that role, because Bruce screwed up!

And Bruce probably knows what Jeff does well. But MAYBE he wanted to see what else players can do. And maybe he wants to see that against better competition than Chivas USA.

sidefootsitter
08 Sep 2005, 11:24 AM
I agree with "Ursula" and "GoDc" ... and myself from a previous post.

This was a sink-or-swim test. Notice that the players began to gel a little more in the 2nd half.

And I think this is what you have to do sometimes, throw a little curve to your players and see if they can adopt. If Dempsey wanted that back-up A-mid gig in Germany, then he had to show that he could find forwards other than himself. If Jeffro wanted a back-up striker spot, he had to show that he could meet the ball somewhere.

Believe it or not, I would not have even made any subs last night. Let those guys go the full 90s. See what they had learned from being on the pitch together. See if they can think on their feet and have more than one weapon in their arsenal.

I have no problem with that.

Serie Zed
08 Sep 2005, 11:29 AM
But a lot of those guys have been in several camps together...so it's not like they were a complete unknown to each other.

And Arena may well have put them in the positions he did because that's where they're going to have a chance to make the squad.

Or maybe he's just a sadistic prick who enjoys screwing with B-level players for no other reason than he can get away with it and he's more worried about getting his jollies and rewarding his pets than winning soccer matches.

ursula
08 Sep 2005, 11:30 AM
I think the disagreement is not about this. If I understand ursula's point (which I am not sure I do since it seems to be critical of Arena. ;)), the criticism is that Arena didn't put out a line-up that actually tested the players in the best meaningful way.

touche!

GoDC
08 Sep 2005, 11:41 AM
Or maybe he's just a sadistic prick who enjoys screwing with B-level players for no other reason than he can get away with it and he's more worried about getting his jollies and rewarding his pets than winning soccer matches.

:D

ursula
08 Sep 2005, 11:42 AM
But is the coach right to only put players in a role where they are comfortable? These guys need to prove that they can do anything required in Germany if they want to make the team. Say we have two injuries and two suspensions at any point in Germany. One of the lower guys on the roster is going to need to step up and perform. They won't get to choose their position.

Yeah, that's what I was trying to get at in noting that Arena had two somewhat incompatible goals. He needs players who can play the way he wants but at the same time he needs to see what the players can do best. I think in this game he was too rigid. He was asking too much from players who both weren't used to the level of competition and each other. It was like, especially with the attackers, that there were five individuals out there who didn't know how to interact. Group Asberger's Syndrome!


Going back to Dempsey, who I think is representative of what happened: At New England, Steve Nicol has shaped a formation around Clint. Nicol knows that Clint is not effective as a lone a-mid, not is he especially good on wing. Nicol knows this from experience. Arena should be aware of that. Arena should know that there are a few players who could play a-mid for the Nats better than Clint: Convey, The Cartographer, and Fred all come to mind as being more comfortable at the position.

That doesn't mean that Clint's pants though. It just means you either have to try and get him comfortable at forward or modify your formation, like a 352 or like a box midfield with two a-mids, two d-mids- sort of like- wait for it!- the T&T game! Whoo-hoo! If Arena can modify his formations for his a-teamers then he can do the same for his scrubs.

Nutmeg
08 Sep 2005, 12:00 PM
While I think Arena may have been trying to force a couple of square pegs into some round holes, I think the real issue here lies with a bunch of players who weren't on the same wavelength. For example - Albright and Quaranta didn't seem to know how to partner together on the right. Dempsey just looked lost out there. Arena continues to try to make Twellman a McBride-like target forward, which isn't Twellman's game, and on top of that, Twellman didn't do what he's been extremely good at doing in MLS - finish. And nobody knew how to take advantage of Cunningham's game.

I just don't think you can throw 11 guys out onto the field for the first time and have the expectation that they are going to combine well together. The result we saw is exactly what we should have expected...

- Passes seemingly going to nobody because the passer thought the receiver would be somewhere else.

- Players dispossessed on the dribble because they didn't have an outlet to get rid of the ball quickly.

- Not enough runs away from the ball being made because players didn't know which runs to make to support the passer.

- Overall, a disjointed group that collectively looked piss-poor because they didn't understand how to work together.

Towards the middle of the second half, the US finally started to string some passes together and look like a team. At one point, I counted at least 13 connected passes with the result being a dangerous shot on goal. But that coordination and teamwork takes time. And 70 minutes in an away qualifier is a tough spot to try and make a case for yourself when your biggest challenge is figuring out where your teammates are.

What could Bruce have done differently? To begin with, I would have started Donovan at AMid. He and Pablo have played together quite a bit, and they've shown an understanding of how to work together. Getting some cohesion in central midfield is key to building an attack. Secondly, I wouldn't have started both Cunningham and Twellman. One or the other. Let Johnson start, go a half, and then sub Cunningham or Twellman once the team has started to gel a bit. Finally, I wouldn't have called in Vanney to begin with.

Convey played a pretty good game, and I've got no problems with his performance. Quaranta, OTOH, looked bad. Really bad. He is the one guy from this game who I think hurt his cause more than any other, because he's played a lot of minutes - relative to others - in camps and in Gold Cup and WCQ games as a right mid, and he looked lost.

GoDC
08 Sep 2005, 12:03 PM
Yeah, that's what I was trying to get at in noting that Arena had two somewhat incompatible goals. He needs players who can play the way he wants but at the same time he needs to see what the players can do best. I think in this game he was too rigid. He was asking too much from players who both weren't used to the level of competition and each other. It was like, especially with the attackers, that there were five individuals out there who didn't know how to interact. Group Asberger's Syndrome!


Going back to Dempsey, who I think is representative of what happened: At New England, Steve Nicol has shaped a formation around Clint. Nicol knows that Clint is not effective as a lone a-mid, not is he especially good on wing. Nicol knows this from experience. Arena should be aware of that. Arena should know that there are a few players who could play a-mid for the Nats better than Clint: Convey, The Cartographer, and Fred all come to mind as being more comfortable at the position.

That doesn't mean that Clint's pants though. It just means you either have to try and get him comfortable at forward or modify your formation, like a 352 or like a box midfield with two a-mids, two d-mids- sort of like- wait for it!- the T&T game! Whoo-hoo! If Arena can modify his formations for his a-teamers then he can do the same for his scrubs.

Yep the last two games will be interesting to see what he does. I wouldn't be surprised to see Bobby in the back at least one of them.

Nutmeg
08 Sep 2005, 12:13 PM
If Arena can modify his formations for his a-teamers then he can do the same for his scrubs.

I guess I disagree with this, Skip. Dempsey, IMO, is turning out to be a lot like Jovan Kirovski. You have to build a formation around him and put him in just the right spot for him to be effective.

I don't think that Clint is so good that we should be doing that. He ain't a poor man's Zidane. We can live without him. And the bottom line is, if he can't adjust to Arena's system, then he won't make it.