Who is the best finisher?

[tpmazembe]

[/font]I mentioned in post no. 145 that, no one except Pele had achieved as much as Ronaldo did by the time he turned 22. Thus, it should apply to my latter post (no. ) as well. I should have made it explicit though.I hear you.

At least it provided an opportunity to put up the stats :)

Its always interesting to see the twists and turns threads will take....funny thing is, when they end, they seem to end abruptly.

[johno]

wow... way way way off topic... influence and accomplishments have nothing to do with finishing skills...

I'll get laughed at, but one of the best finishers I've ever seen is Ole Gunnar Solskjaer, calm, calculated and he could score any thing that he could get to. His heading was accurate but he couldn't jump so didn't win many, but he could shoot with either right or left and were he blessed with the physique of some one else he'd probably have set all kinds of records as it is he'll have to settle for a CL medal and 115 goals for his club.

[Kaushik]

He played the whole first game against Mexico. Pele set up the first goal to Zagallo, and scored the second on a 40 meter run.
Probably Pele's best goal in a WC match. I think so anyways.

[tpmazembe]

wow... way way way off topic... influence and accomplishments have nothing to do with finishing skills...Ulimately its subjective, but finishing on the biggest stages means something.

Moreover, is the best finisher the player who scores the most from the fewest shot attempts? If so, how do you factor in players who are more confident, or more daring, who risk attempts that others wouldn't? How many players today try those crazy Rooney volley's? Those are inherently low-percentage shots.

Then you have players who are masters of positioning within the box, and may touch the ball significantly only half-a-dozen times a game...but their teammates make sure that when they do touch it its usually with a chance for a shot on goal? How does one factor in that they are getting the cleanest set-ups? Or do you...maybe that's all you (not specific to you, johno) want from your finisher.

Then there are the players that can finish from a team set-up, or finish on their own, from multiple angles, various distances, left or right footed, in the air, acrobatically, etc. I'll take a slightly lower conversion rate for such a player any day.

Does anyone have a goals/shot attempt analysis available to compare current players? [I could have sworn that some intrepid poster had done a comparison of Henry and Ronaldo's efficiency based on shot attempts the season before last...don't remember who, or the results].

[celito]

Ulimately its subjective, but finishing on the biggest stages means something.

Moreover, is the best finisher the player who scores the most from the fewest shot attempts? If so, how do you factor in players who are more confident, or more daring, who risk attempts that others wouldn't? How many players today try those crazy Rooney volley's? Those are inherently low-percentage shots.

Then you have players who are masters of positioning within the box, and may touch the ball significantly only half-a-dozen times a game...but their teammates make sure that when they do touch it its usually with a chance for a shot on goal? How does one factor in that they are getting the cleanest set-ups? Or do you...maybe that's all you (not specific to you, johno) want from your finisher.

Then there are the players that can finish from a team set-up, or finish on their own, from multiple angles, various distances, left or right footed, in the air, acrobatically, etc. I'll take a slightly lower conversion rate for such a player any day.

Does anyone have a goals/shot attempt analysis available to compare current players? [I could have sworn that some intrepid poster had done a comparison of Henry and Ronaldo's efficiency based on shot attempts the season before last...don't remember who, or the results].

Sort of like this ?

http://uk.sports.yahoo.com/fo/profiles/2717.html

[tpmazembe]

Sort of like this ?

http://uk.sports.yahoo.com/fo/profiles/2717.html

Yes. Except that seems the shot detail doesn't extend past the premiership (or am I missing the path?).

Either way thanks for the link celito. I'm going to digest it for a bit.

[celito]

Yes. Except that seems the shot detail doesn't extend past the premiership (or am I missing the path?).

Either way thanks for the link celito. I'm going to digest it for a bit.

Well ... you're right, it's only Premiership. And the same page for Ronaldo doesn't have shot attempts.

I play Yahoo Fantasy Football EPL and La Liga and they keep track of shots on target for the season. But not shots that hit the post or go wide. But I can't access past season stats.

I don't think you will find any place that actually has those statistics compiled. It'd be interesting to see it just for kicks.

BTW ... I just saw Muller's goals in the World Cup, he was such a poacher !

[johno]

Ulimately its subjective, but finishing on the biggest stages means something.

Moreover, is the best finisher the player who scores the most from the fewest shot attempts? If so, how do you factor in players who are more confident, or more daring, who risk attempts that others wouldn't? How many players today try those crazy Rooney volley's? Those are inherently low-percentage shots.

Then you have players who are masters of positioning within the box, and may touch the ball significantly only half-a-dozen times a game...but their teammates make sure that when they do touch it its usually with a chance for a shot on goal? How does one factor in that they are getting the cleanest set-ups? Or do you...maybe that's all you (not specific to you, johno) want from your finisher.

Then there are the players that can finish from a team set-up, or finish on their own, from multiple angles, various distances, left or right footed, in the air, acrobatically, etc. I'll take a slightly lower conversion rate for such a player any day.

Does anyone have a goals/shot attempt analysis available to compare current players? [I could have sworn that some intrepid poster had done a comparison of Henry and Ronaldo's efficiency based on shot attempts the season before last...don't remember who, or the results].

yeah its sooo subjective I agree. Rooney tried a shot on debut from a silly angle sorta like one of Kanu's more famous goals w/ Arsenal from an impossible angle.

To me its really all about being effective. I think a player who manages to score .75 goals per game whether he's doing it from 8 chances or 10 is better than a player who scores less goals per game in a similar set up w/ teammates and opponents in much few chances like say .5goals per game from just 2 shots per game. While player A) maybe be a better striker because he gets into better positions and tries more shots, player B) is probably a better finisher.

A good point you make is considering what types of shots are taken. For instance Ruud's scoring percentage which is much higher than Henry's might take a big dip this year even if he still finishes what are considered "genuine chances" at the same rate as he did in the past because he's already taken 4 shots from outside the box this season.

For my money though, I can't decide between Ronaldo, Ruud and Sheva as which player I'd like finishing a "genuine chance."

[ECMoney]

You are right in a way, but I can give you a perfect example and you tell me who the better "finisher" is.

Filippo Inzaghi is a striker who always seemed to score goals, he always found the net BUT he always took so many chances to score. I was never a fan of Inzaghi but he did score a ton of goals and he is I beleive #2 all time in Champs League scoring and has scored a bundle in Serie A for various clubs. Anyways, he always seems to create chances, even though it takes him 10 chances to score he would eventually get his goal and even more sometimes.

On the other hand, you got a guy like Shevchenko or Christian Vieri (healthy Vieri) who always score also but they don't need the chances that Inzaghi need BUT they also dont create the chances that Inzaghi creates. They are all definitely great strikers but if you only had one chance to finish you don't want Inzaghi over Vieri or Shevchenko.

Give Inzaghi credit, he creates alot of chances but if he didn't he wouldn't score as many as the others.

So who would be the better finisher? Inzaghi who always creates alot of chances and always gets his goal but he misses alot more than he scores OR Vieri or Shevchenko who you give them that one good chance and you are down 1-0. They don't create as much, but they don't need as much either.

[tpmazembe]

Well ... you're right, it's only Premiership. And the same page for Ronaldo doesn't have shot attempts.

I play Yahoo Fantasy Football EPL and La Liga and they keep track of shots on target for the season. But not shots that hit the post or go wide. But I can't access past season stats.

I don't think you will find any place that actually has those statistics compiled. It'd be interesting to see it just for kicks.

BTW ... I just saw Muller's goals in the World Cup, he was such a poacher !Does anyone have similar data for La Liga and Serie A players?

As for the EPL statistics posted celito, are penalties taken included in the shot attempts column? I'd like to run a quick analysis.

Muller was indeed a supreme goal poacher...and much more. Here's an excellent post by Gregoriak that is well worth a read - http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5984557&postcount=5

[Thelonius1999]

Does anyone have similar data for La Liga and Serie A players?

As for the EPL statistics posted celito, are penalties taken included in the shot attempts column? I'd like to run a quick analysis.

Muller was indeed a supreme goal poacher...and much more. Here's an excellent post by Gregoriak that is well worth a read - http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5984557&postcount=5

Damn!!! talk about a NEWSFLASH...all along I thought Muller was strictly a goalpoacher like Lineker,apparently he made poaching an art form,he averaged virtually a goal a game for W.Germany! & his club record is almost similar...in other words the most prolific striker in the history of the game...

I would never have guessed...all I remember of him is his goals in 74 & his Brolin like goal celebration,he must have been 5'2''....

[dor02]

Why would you think that?On the side panel, where your profile is placed, there is a team and most of the teams that members but down are teams from their country of residence or heritage. You also talk a lot about Brazil.


Fair; but even without giving him any credit for that WC you can definitely say that no other player had achieved as much nationally and internationally by the age of 22. Having already been an integral part of the '58 winning WC squad, he was an absolute starter during one of Brasil's greatest generation of players, and at a very early age had become the focal point of the Selecao....not Garrincha, and no longer Didi.

In fact at WC' 62, at age 21, Pele was already THE player in Brasil, and already being acknowledged as probably the best in the world (by the end of that year he cemented the claim).

Pele got injured (to the point of having to leave the tournament) in the second match against Czechoslovakia. Indeed his groin was already tender for almost a month, having been strained in the first of the four preparatory games prior to the WC. Afraid to miss the Cup, he kept quiet about it from the physio, until it could no longer be hidden.

He played the whole first game against Mexico. Its clear from viewing that almost all the offensive action ran through him. Didi played closer to the defense, as he felt that the two CBs were not in synch. Garrincha was very quiet in this game. Pele set up the first goal to Zagallo, and scored the second on a 40 meter run.

In the following game against Czechoslovakia, within the first 15 minutes, Pele went just wide once, hit the post on a tremendous free-kick from 35 meters, and then hit the upright on a second shot. The Czechs were not stopping him in the early going, and likely would not have stopped him on the day. Unfortunately, on the left-footed shot from outside the area that hit the goalie’s right upright, he pulled his groin to the point that it incapacitated him for the rest of the game, turning him into bystander (given that he couldn't be substituted). Effectivley playing a man down, the game ended 0-0.

With the focal point of the offense lost, Brasil were fortunate enough to be able to look to Garrincha to now lead the attack. They went on to beat Spain (also with its megacraque, DiStefano, injured and unable to play), with what is said to be a good, but not exceptional performance by Garrincha (from what I've read...never seen more than 15 seconds of footage of this game); but it wasn't until the k.o. rounds that all his talent truely came out.

In the k.o.'s he tormented England and Chile (his best two games), before going on to win the trophy and deservingly pocketing the tournament MVP. The qtr final game against England is required viewing. The famous "From what planet is Garrincha?" newpaper caption is a by-product.

I understand your arguement, but technically incorrect here Kaushik. Not even Ronaldo accomplished as much by age 22 as Pele.

By year's end 1962 - Pele was born Oct. 23,1940 - this is what he had achieved :

Paulista champion 1958 (top scorer)
World Cup Champion 1958 (selecao top scorer)
Copa America runner-up 1959 (tournament top scorer)
Rio-Sao Paulo 1959 (top scorer)
Paulista champion 1961 (top scorer)
Paulista champion 1962 (top scorer)
Brasilian champion/ Taca Brasil 1961 (top scorer)
Brasilian champion/Taca Brasil 1962
Libertadores champion def. Penarol over three-legs in final (top scorer)
Intercontinental champion def. Benfica over two-legs (top scorer)

All this for a 22 year old, who wasn't a CF. Think he deserves to be mentioned as a clinical finisher?

I hope this post atones for my earlier contributions.
A great summary and a very good read. It helps to fill in some gaps.

[BlazingHeader]

Roy Makaay.

[fnsandpwr]

Adriano Compilation (http://www.megaupload.com/?d=40HTAIKK)
Tell me if the link isn't working.

[spoonman]

Gerd Muller is the best striker.

He scored 68 goals in 62 international matches for Germany and 365 goals in 427 in Bundesliga games.

That's just unreel

[jcmartins]

Romario.. is way up there too... Up to this day the guy keeps scoring goals...



Still name romario - best scorer current year in the Brazilian championship - nearing forty - the guy is unbelievable - I wouldn't mind having him at the selecao up to this day.....

[Sid Wilson]

ruud is right up there, as WAS ronaldo, henry must also surely be up there too

[gumbacicc]

Trezeguet!!!

[elcombo]

ronaldo by far. there is no comparison

[nirvaanfc]

David Trezeguet!

Best pure finisher i have ever seen!

That said Shevchenko, Van Nistelrooy, Inzaghi(F) and Ronaldo deserve mentions also! But as a pure finisher and nothing else considered Trezeguet is the best!