Players changing positions on the US team

[Nutmeg]

The recent comments from Eddie Lewis in the ESPN chat has spawned a few questions in my mind and in others' as to how "normal" is it for players to play one position for a club and another for their country. Another question that frequently comes up as a player develops is whether or not it is "normal" for a player to change positions throughout their careers. I wanted to discuss this topic in its own thread because I think there is a misperception that this only happens in the US. Not true.

This is a lot more common than people here on Big Soccer realize. Players change positions all the time - Henry started out as a winger, Roberto Carlos as a forward, Puyol as a forward, Desailly as a midfielder, Lothar as a forward, then midfielder, then defender, etc. The truth is that roles and positions change for players between club and country all the time. And just as common, if not moreso, a player will change titles and responsibilities at least once in their career. A pet peeve of mine is when we lament a player getting played "out of position" simply because they might be listed in one position then played in another.

At the end of the day, the real question is whether or not a particular player can perform the required duties of a given role on whatever team they happen to be playing. Forget the title of the position. Instead, focus on what is required of that player in that specific role.

For example, can Eddie Lewis play left back for the US when he's spent most of his career as a left midfielder? Again - forget the titles of "defender" and "midfielder," and instead focus on what Arena requires from this specific role:

- Speed: Check
- Fitness: Check
- Tactical awareness (when to push forward vs. when to stay at home): Question
- Defensive technique: Question
- Experience necessary to eliminate rookie blunders: Question, but leaning towards "Check"
- "Good enough" 1v1 skills (a defender doesn't need to be Robben-esque): Check
- Crossing ability: Double-check
- Shooting ability: Check

I actually think only two more players in our pool have shown more potential as a left back than Lewis - DaMarcus Beasley and John O'brien. Bruce Arena, however, wants those guys closer to goal, which is completely understandable. As Lewis mentions, him moving to left back means that all three can be on the field at the same time. And IMO, all three should be on the field at the same time - each is one of our best 11 players.

Lewis brings much, much more to the attack than the other candidates, including Vanney (Ugh!), Bocanegra (doesn't have the speed, 1v1, or crossing ability of Lewis), and Gibbs (a fish out of water on the left). In fact, I think it is a bigger change from central defender to wide defender than it is from wide midfielder to outside defender.

And Eddie Lewis is hardly the only player who has seen their role change from club to country. Claudio Reyna has almost never played the exact same role for the US as he has for his club. DaMarcus Beasley is a forward for PSV, while for the US he's been everything from a wingback to an attacking midfielder. John O'brien was a left back for Ajax when he led the US to the quarterfinals as an attacking midfielder. Tony Sanneh was playing as a central defender in Germany when he schooled Portugal as a right back.

The list goes on and on, and it isn't a US-centric phenomenom. I'll say it again in summary: Bruce Arena cannot be handcuffed into playing his players at specific positions simply because that might be where they play for their clubs. His system and our playing pool necessitate good enough soccer players who are effective in multiple roles within multiple formations with tactics that vary based on who we might be playing that day. Bottom line - if you are a one-trick pony whose usefulness declines if the US doesn't employ a certain formation and certain tactics, then your chances of making the team decline accordingly.

[Heathens '87]

I'll say it again in summary: Bruce Arena cannot be handcuffed into playing his players at specific positions simply because that might be where they play for their clubs. His system and our playing pool necessitate good enough soccer players who are effective in multiple roles within multiple formations with tactics that vary based on who we might be playing that day. Bottom line - if you are a one-trick pony whose usefulness declines if the US doesn't employ a certain formation and certain tactics, then your chances of making the team decline accordingly.


Well said, and Bruce is obviously beginning to speak with players about their roles, and potential roles. Arena has to put the team that gives us the best chance to win on the pitch, regardless of where they'd prefer to play, or even where they play for their clubs.

What was nice to see with Eddie was the attitude he put forward. Once the conversation with Bruce happened, whatever happened in that discussion (and I can't imagine it was easy for either of them), you didn't get a hint of dissension. That's a professional....

[EdgarDavids20]

Good post. If Lewis had been brought along for the Gold Cup, I think it would have been an opportune time to try him out at that position. Currently the best option we have at the position is Bocanegra who at best is a stopgap option. I think Lewis would be a good solution for the left back problem the USMNT for all the reasons you mentioned. However, the question still remains, as you mentioned, as to whether or not lewis has the ability to play defense at the left back position. The only way we are going to answer that question is if we actually try him at the position. Once we qualify for the world cup, I think it might not be a bad idea to try him out there in some of the friendlies.

[obewan]

I've thought about Lewis at LB and wondered...it would be better to try him against Trinidad than start him there against Mexico never having played a game there. Gibbs and Bocanegra both have to give up ground out wide to smaller, quicker players in order to keep them in front of them. Convey will be a midfielder, not a LB.

I agree that JOB, DMB and Lewis all three need to be on the field. JOB is at his best in the middle of the park. DMB is a better attacker than Lewis and does a pretty good job tracking back to help defend. If Lewis plays LB against Trinidad and does well, fantastic. If not, let's pray that Gibbs gets better quickly, because I believe he's a better option at LB than either Vanney or Bocanegra. OR, we might see a 3-5-2 with 2 defensive middies parked in front of our back line.

[ursula]

I'll say it again in summary: Bruce Arena cannot be handcuffed into playing his players at specific positions simply because that might be where they play for their clubs. His system and our playing pool necessitate good enough soccer players who are effective in multiple roles within multiple formations with tactics that vary based on who we might be playing that day. Bottom line - if you are a one-trick pony whose usefulness declines if the US doesn't employ a certain formation and certain tactics, then your chances of making the team decline accordingly.

Great closing paragraph Nutmeg.

When Arena first started many if not most of the players were "one trick ponies". There were exceptions like Hedjuk, Stewart, and Sanneh. But as time has gone along fewer and fewer of those guys are in the pool-or at least in the deep end of the pool.

So what does that mean in the near future? We have yet to see Arena fully embrace this philosophy at a few key positions: d-mid actually probably the main position- but he's close. Even "target forward' is not so dogmatic anymore: In the Gold Cup only Coner Casey was such a player and when he got hurt the target forward concept went with it. The GC was interesting too in that when I looked at practice, Quaranta was almost always a forward bit he never played that in a game, while Dempsey was always a center mid in practice and he did see some forward time. Olsen as the sub for the hurt Cherundolo was also unexpected.

Will every position become fluid before Germany?

[Nutmeg]

Will every position become fluid before Germany?

I don't see Keller as a left back, but who knows?

But seriously, no. A few positions will have specialists. McBride is a target forward. Gooch is a central defender, as is Pope. I'd bet money on at least one DMid specialist. Even the elites like Brazil and France employ a few specialists for select roles, and I don't see the US completely abandoning guys who excel in particular positions in the next year, if ever.

[robchap628]

The recent comments from Eddie Lewis in the ESPN chat has spawned a few questions in my mind and in others' as to how "normal" is it for players to play one position for a club and another for their country. Another question that frequently comes up as a player develops is whether or not it is "normal" for a player to change positions throughout their careers. I wanted to discuss this topic in its own thread because I think there is a misperception that this only happens in the US. Not true.

This is a lot more common than people here on Big Soccer realize. Players change positions all the time - Henry started out as a winger, Roberto Carlos as a forward, Puyol as a forward, Desailly as a midfielder, Lothar as a forward, then midfielder, then defender, etc. The truth is that roles and positions change for players between club and country all the time. And just as common, if not moreso, a player will change titles and responsibilities at least once in their career. A pet peeve of mine is when we lament a player getting played "out of position" simply because they might be listed in one position then played in another.

At the end of the day, the real question is whether or not a particular player can perform the required duties of a given role on whatever team they happen to be playing. Forget the title of the position. Instead, focus on what is required of that player in that specific role.

For example, can Eddie Lewis play left back for the US when he's spent most of his career as a left midfielder? Again - forget the titles of "defender" and "midfielder," and instead focus on what Arena requires from this specific role:

- Speed: Check
- Fitness: Check
- Tactical awareness (when to push forward vs. when to stay at home): Question
- Defensive technique: Question
- Experience necessary to eliminate rookie blunders: Question, but leaning towards "Check"
- "Good enough" 1v1 skills (a defender doesn't need to be Robben-esque): Check
- Crossing ability: Double-check
- Shooting ability: Check

I actually think only two more players in our pool have shown more potential as a left back than Lewis - DaMarcus Beasley and John O'brien. Bruce Arena, however, wants those guys closer to goal, which is completely understandable. As Lewis mentions, him moving to left back means that all three can be on the field at the same time. And IMO, all three should be on the field at the same time - each is one of our best 11 players.

Lewis brings much, much more to the attack than the other candidates, including Vanney (Ugh!), Bocanegra (doesn't have the speed, 1v1, or crossing ability of Lewis), and Gibbs (a fish out of water on the left). In fact, I think it is a bigger change from central defender to wide defender than it is from wide midfielder to outside defender.

And Eddie Lewis is hardly the only player who has seen their role change from club to country. Claudio Reyna has almost never played the exact same role for the US as he has for his club. DaMarcus Beasley is a forward for PSV, while for the US he's been everything from a wingback to an attacking midfielder. John O'brien was a left back for Ajax when he led the US to the quarterfinals as an attacking midfielder. Tony Sanneh was playing as a central defender in Germany when he schooled Portugal as a right back.

The list goes on and on, and it isn't a US-centric phenomenom. I'll say it again in summary: Bruce Arena cannot be handcuffed into playing his players at specific positions simply because that might be where they play for their clubs. His system and our playing pool necessitate good enough soccer players who are effective in multiple roles within multiple formations with tactics that vary based on who we might be playing that day. Bottom line - if you are a one-trick pony whose usefulness declines if the US doesn't employ a certain formation and certain tactics, then your chances of making the team decline accordingly.

But where will Hejduk play???

[DonCorleone]

Changing DMB & O'Brien position = Wasting US soccer talents.

[DonCorleone]

But where will Hejduk play???

I think he should retired, he is too nervous on the field which leading to mistakes.

[robchap628]

I think he should retired, he is too nervous on the field which leading to mistakes.

i was being sarcastic

[robchap628]

Changing DMB & O'Brien position = Wasting US soccer talents.

Changing DMB & O'Brien's positions= being able to use everyones talents on the field at the same time

[bennyf118]

- Speed: Check
- Fitness: Check
- Tactical awareness (when to push forward vs. when to stay at home): Question
- Defensive technique: Question
- Experience necessary to eliminate rookie blunders: Question, but leaning towards "Check"
- "Good enough" 1v1 skills (a defender doesn't need to be Robben-esque): Check
- Crossing ability: Double-check
- Shooting ability: Check



I think that your assessment is almost spot-on, and that we should definitely give Lewis a try back there. However, a couple of things come to mind. First, I'm not so sure I trust Lewis' speed and fitness. Perhaps it is unwarranted, but it seems to me that he relies more on positioning and a soccer mind to be in the right place at the right time (which might be fine anyway).

Even more worrying though, is looking at the traits you mention with respect to another player: Convey.

- Speed: Check plus
- Fitness: Check plus
- Tactical Awareness, when to go forward: ?, but I don't remember a particular problem with this
- Defensive technique: ?/poor -- Maybe this in where Lewis gains ground
- Experience: Can only get better
- 1v1 skills: Check (He seems to have improved in this respect recently as well)
- Crossing ability: Check
- Shooting ability: To put it nicely, not so great, but I'd argue not so important either

We've done the Convey experiment, and the results were a mixed bag. But comparing Lewis to Convey, it looks like they have similar characteristics, so I'm worried that Lewis won't be an improvement over Convey. Still worth a shot, but I'm not optimistic.

[russ]

Great thread Nutmeg,I have thought for while that we need a complement to Dolo on the right and that neither Convey or Boca were quite it.I've always thought JOB,but Lewis began as a LB in MLS and is now a a seasoned vet.Should be interesting to see.Maybe tomorrow night.

[Chowderhead]

We know this: someone has to be brought along to fill in comfortably at left back. We can no longer shoehorn Hejduk. The beauty of Nutmeg's idea is that if you have O'Brien on the field he can comfortably offer cover for a surging Lewis the way Mastro or even Reyna can cover for Cherundolo with ease on the right.

[John L]

The other thing Arena likes is VERSATILITY, especially during the run of play - Yes, there are role players and Arena has favored them even though their overall play may seem less than other players - But its outside fullbacks who can overlap effectively down the wing, or swing inside and cover central defense for critical sequences that Arena likes - And outside halfbacks who can drop back comfortably with the back line when necessary, or bring the ball into the middle and be THE A-MID for a while - Or a forward who can also come back to get the ball and hold and distribute wisely

This is the value in looking to see which players would actually improve by switching their position - Most high-level youth club coaches don't do this because they have the team too little time and so emphasize winning over player-development - And the same with a lot of pro coaches - And National Team coaches

Arena appears to be the exception here - Taking the long-term point of view and looking at player development - If you want to be a really good outside halfback, you have to know what your teammates expect around you - You need to know what its like being the full-back behind you - Or the center halfback beside you - Or the forward in front of you - Be willing to spend a good amount of time at that position to reallly learn it - You might find out thats a better position - And if not, that experience will only make you a better and smarter and MORE VERSATILE player during the run of play

[NBlue]

I wanted to echo the comment concerning your excellent analysis here, Nutmeg. That said, I do take issue with you on your analysis of the skills that Eddie possesses. While I think Eddie is faster than Sanneh or Vanney, he certainly is not at the same speed level as Landon, DFB and EJ (admittedly, few are). I think his speed at an international level is a question and not a check as you assert and I remain concerned about whether he would be a serious liability against an international opponent with significant speed on the outside -- say Holland -- due to his lack of speed even if he displays a fair amount of defensive technique. I must say that I agree more with Benny here in that I think it is his soccer mind and high soccer IQ coupled with his superior ability to strike the ball with his left boot (both towards goal and amazingly accurately on crosses) that have lead to his recent resurgence as one of the top players on the USMNT rather than his speed, dexterity or fitness. You posit that Lewis brings more to the left back position than Boca due, in part, to his speed but if you put the two in a head to head race I'm not certain that would prove to be correct, though Lewis may well prove to be a better left back than Boca.

All that said, I certainly wholeheartedly agree with BA's apparent decision to give Eddie a try at left back. He certainly would be a weapon there against opponents who are intent on bunkering against us & we may well have such a team drawn in our group stage. Moreover -- who knows -- he could establish that he is able to defend better than many of us think in the back and become a regular option against even top flight opponents (see Sanneh circa 2002). However, the notion that he is automatically better at the position than some of those who have played there recently (Boca and Hejduk, for example) is, perhaps, putting the cart before the horse at this juncture. Let's see how he does first -- I certainly am hopeful that he will be able to display the skills necessary to be an excellent option at that position for us so that 3 of our top 10 offensive players (he, JOB and DFB) could be on the field at the same time. While I'm hopeful he would succeed, I'm not quite as optimistic as some here . . .

[appoo]

We know this: someone has to be brought along to fill in comfortably at left back. We can no longer shoehorn Hejduk. The beauty of Nutmeg's idea is that if you have O'Brien on the field he can comfortably offer cover for a surging Lewis the way Mastro or even Reyna can cover for Cherundolo with ease on the right.

total football baby :)

that is what I think Nutmeg's analysis will evolve into.

[appoo]

I think that your assessment is almost spot-on, and that we should definitely give Lewis a try back there. However, a couple of things come to mind. First, I'm not so sure I trust Lewis' speed and fitness. Perhaps it is unwarranted, but it seems to me that he relies more on positioning and a soccer mind to be in the right place at the right time (which might be fine anyway).

Even more worrying though, is looking at the traits you mention with respect to another player: Convey.

- Speed: Check plus
- Fitness: Check plus
- Tactical Awareness, when to go forward: ?, but I don't remember a particular problem with this
- Defensive technique: ?/poor -- Maybe this in where Lewis gains ground
- Experience: Can only get better
- 1v1 skills: Check (He seems to have improved in this respect recently as well)
- Crossing ability: Check
- Shooting ability: To put it nicely, not so great, but I'd argue not so important either

We've done the Convey experiment, and the results were a mixed bag. But comparing Lewis to Convey, it looks like they have similar characteristics, so I'm worried that Lewis won't be an improvement over Convey. Still worth a shot, but I'm not optimistic.


Lewis isn't NEARLY as reckless as Convey. He's also a better crosser. And thats where Lewis' advantage would be

[chad]

Versatitlity is great, but excellence is better. I'd rather have 2 amazing forwards who could only play forward, than a guy who can decently cover both. Same with Midfield positions, and so on. Obvuously, this is a luxury of the best teams, so in asmuch Nutmeg is diagnosing the USMNT he's spot on. That being said, I think at times we have to be careful of overvaluing versatility. A versatile backup is nice, but so is one that can't defend for crap, but can attack like hell from midfield, and vice-versa. There are tradeoffs, a gang of utility men who are decent is also limited to being decent.

[Autogolazo]

The thought of having Beasley's blazing runs AND Eddie's pinpoint crosses coming from the left side is tantalizing in the extreme.