We are not expected to win the league this year..by a long shot.

[Dark Savante]

Bookies give us long odds..waivering between 3rd and 4th place! We have something called teletext over here and they have their own review of the upcoming league..they expect us to finish behind Liverpool (in 4th)

What do you honestly believe we are going to do this year? No fantasy talk..realism please. Basically, over here no-one expects Chelsea to do anything but retain the title. I personally believe it is a disgrace if they don't. Nothing but 1st for them is acceptable the amount they waste and the squad they have. Arsenal are expected to come in from 2nd -4th - some forecasters saying that Vieira's loss will see them plummet , others believing their system will see them coming in 2nd.

The ones I've read for United have been pretty interesting. Not really out of order..fourth sounds harsh...but the people writing their previews of the season see it as thus: An older squad then last year with no real enhancements may struggle and tire. I don't share that view but can see why it could be put forth as a viable route for us if we don't sign anyone between now and the end of close season.

Chelsea have a prepostrous squad. When has there ever been a defender like Carvalho/Gallas sitting on the bench of any league winning club? If we toppled them it would be perhaps the greatest achievement of Fergie's reign outside the treble - 1st team to 1st team there isn't a problem..but can we, as a squad over 3compeitions compete with what they have if anything goes wrong(long term injury to Terry? just throw on Gallas/Carvalho. If we had a long term injury to Rio you'd have to think our title chances were remote to say the least. I also don't believe Arsenal have the resource to cope without Sol over an entire, title winning campaign. Sendoros isn't ready for a full season imo)

As a general overview of what we are and what we are capable of I see it like this:

GK If VDS stays fit we are solid here

CB: Rio out, we are done.

FB: Perhaps why we are being linked to Cicinho. If Gary is out for any length of time we are in trouble. The left side is more secure.

DM: Who covers for Keane? He can't play a whole season (3competitions, if successful plus international duty and you're looking at between 70-80games :eek: ) he can't manage that. Who slots in for an absent Keano? Smith? Park? O'Shea? Fortune? the drop off in quality here is my biggest worry for the tea tbh.

CM: Nothing has changed here since last season. Was it good enough last year? Fletcher is 2years off what he will become and Scholes is a year older - I do believe Scholes will be much, much better then last year however. Again who covers for these 2? How much does the quality fall by in a Scholes understudy?

Wings: Actually, extremely strong here. With huge amount of flexibility and enough legs to carry us through an 80game campaign. SAF expects 18goals from Ronaldo this season..can he deliver that?

Strikers: So then...Ruud, Rooney....Saha Ole? Rossi? Bellion. Ruud is probabaly the crux of where we are likely to end up. That's a lot of weight on his shoulders. I do believe Rooney could be good for 15-20 league goals if he gets a chance to pla through the middle though. If things go right here we potentially have the best strikeforce in the country.

Checking the mood on most United forums tinged with realism and we are not expecting to win the league. Most of my friends think the same. Not sure where I stand. An injuries free season is more crucial now then it has ever been. Saha looks like he'll be of new use(again) So how much weight does that put on Ruud and Rooney? Is it fair to expect anything of Ole? He's been out for two years!! Rossi is on his debut season huge expecatation is not fair on him..so, where do our goals come from if anything happens to Ruud or Rooney?

I'd like us to have a realistic discscussion..not all hope and fantasy. I feel this is a fascinating season for us for a number of reasons. I'd love to know what you really think of/for the team and not what you would hope to see from the team. Are these so-called pundis just ABU's who can't wait to see us fail and hence they come out with these 4th placed comments..or, can you see the logic in what they are saying. Again, no fantasy bollocks here please. :)

[Motterman]

1. Yes, I think we can win the league
2. Yes, I'm being optimistic

Come on, there's only 3 clubs that can realistically win the league this season, and we're one of them. What's not to be excited about?

[johno]

In the past I've believed that its always been our title to lose. This year, not so much. I belive we are capable of winning it, but if Chelsea play as well as they did last year for the entire season, it might be beyond us. That said, I think our first team is stupendous and we've got depth everywhere but in the middle of the park.

If we get another CM we should be fine though we don't need to have a bigger squad than Chelsea or even a better squad than them, we just have to beat the teams we know we can beat, which is just about every team in the league.

The nice thing about the 433 is that if Scholes or Fletcher goes down, a Rooney or a Park can stand in. If Smith plays well behind Keane then we'll be relatively stable there, remembering that O'Shea can stand in in CM from time to time. IMO unless our injuries/suspensions come at bad times, we can have a great campaign with the squad we have currently, and that winning or atleast challenging Chelsea for the title is realistic and once we are within striking range with 6 weeks left I'll be happy because anything can happen from there on out.

[Hawki]

DS ... good topic and some very good points.

The only tangeable we have to gauge by is last year ...

Chelsea = The have added some expensive help ... but what have they really done to improve? They've added depth. I really don't think that any combination of 11 starters are going to be significantly better than last years starters. They will however be able to weather injuries much better than anyone else. They will also be able to adjust lineups to accomidate for their competition better than anyone else.

MUFC = Our defence is going to be more reliable than last year with the addition of VDS. No other significant changes. Midfield is so hard to say other than we are going to get even less games from our normal starters. Will our kids hold up over the course of the year ... no one knows. The attack should be substancially more concerted ... we have the talent and the talent has had more time to work together. It really should be much improved. Our biggest weakness will be depth. A couple of key injuries will cause a repeat of the last couple of years and make the predictors look pretty good.

Arsenal = Will remain in the top 4 but the change in their middle will prevent them from challenging for first. They, like us, have been unable to solidify their midfield and it will cost them.

Liverpool = They have not done enough to improve and they don't have the depth. 'Nough said.

We can & will challenge Chelsea ... whether we can sustain it for a full season will depend on whether we are able to make another good signing before the window closes and if we stay healthy.

[blackadder]

I agree that injuries are the key, as Chelsea have much more depth. I think as things stand at the start of the season, with a couple of additions and most everyone healthy, United are in a good position to correct the main problem of last season: giving up points to weak opposition.

That should make the title race closer. But I don't see us having the amazing results against the top teams that we did last year. This team could win the League in the years when less than seven losses assured a finish close to the top. Now the standard is much higher.

MUFC will finish third and reach the semifinals of the Champions League or finish second after being knocked out in the group stages of the Champions League.

(We'll be dumped by lower league opposition in the FA Cup and reach the Carling Cup final.)

[Rei de Boston]

Realistically I think we can challenge for the title. I do have some worries about the squad and they have been well enumerated by DS, Hawki, and johno. One big problem with an aging squad is the injury factor, which we all know has bitten us the past couple of seasons. However, there are only a few of our players that you can count on to get injured- Giggs, Saha, Brown, Fortune, and maybe Keane. The rest are still strong and relatively young so only major freak injuries should derail us there.

As for the center of the Park CM and CD are the biggest worry for me. Having VDS will help an already strong defense but if Rio is off or injured I don't think VDS can overcome the deficiencies of Brown/Silvestre. Maybe they step up but by now I think everyone has a good idea of what you have out of those two and it isn't a worldbeater.

Losing Keane for an extended time would be very difficult for us. Smith might have potential there but he is just too inexperienced for us to place anykind of hopes on. As for the rest of the Keane back ups...if they have to play significant minutes there we are going to have trouble.

Still worse case I don't see us falling out of the top three.

[Potomac Red Devil]

I think it will probably shake out this way:

1. Chelsea (so much depth)
2. Manchester United (as much as it pains me to say it, our first team does not match theirs...when was the last time we beat them head to head in competition? It will take massive Chelsea injuries or the addition of a quality CM for us to compete with Chelsea).
3. Arsenal
4. Liverpool (I think they can compete with Arsenal on talent but Wenger, et al know how to win in the league).

[johno]

2. Manchester United (as much as it pains me to say it, our first team does not match theirs...when was the last time we beat them head to head in competition? It will take massive Chelsea injuries or the addition of a quality CM for us to compete with Chelsea).

we don't have to beat them head to head to win the league, its not a cup its about getting points off our opponents... against the big 3, Chelsea, Arsenal, Liverpool we were fantastic last year and if we can get 14pts from those fixtures in the league (I think beating Arsenal twice is more possible w/ the absence of Vieira) we'd only have to beat the teams we KNOW we can beat which is where we failed last year. Big games are big games, and no one steps up to the big occasion like United.

[50 Euro]

For reference, latest odds to win the league:

Bet365:
Chelsea 8/11
Arsenal 3/1
Man Utd 10/3
Liverpool 16/1
Newcastle 100/1
Tottenham 150/1
Paddy Power:
Chelsea 4/6
Manchester United 3/1
Arsenal 4/1
Liverpool 14/1
Newcastle 150/1
Everton 150/1
Tottenham 150/1
Ladbrokes:
Chelsea 4/6
Arsenal 3/1
Manchester Utd 7/2
Liverpool 14/1
Tottenham Hotspur 100/1
Everton 150/1

[Potomac Red Devil]

we don't have to beat them head to head to win the league, its not a cup its about getting points off our opponents... against the big 3, Chelsea, Arsenal, Liverpool we were fantastic last year and if we can get 14pts from those fixtures in the league (I think beating Arsenal twice is more possible w/ the absence of Vieira) we'd only have to beat the teams we KNOW we can beat which is where we failed last year. Big games are big games, and no one steps up to the big occasion like United.

I hear ya, but what I really meant was that they just have a better team than we do, thus, not only will it be tough to beat them head to head, but they will likely do better against the other teams as well.

We didn't lose the title last year because Chelsea beat us...we lost it because they were better able to beat the other teams (as you pointed out).

[RhythmandGangsta1825]

I think what some guys are missing the fact that Liverpool was missing Djibril Cisse for the most of last season. Don't get me wrong...his productivity is still a question in this league but he will still be a difference maker for club.

Chelsea is just a juggernaut...head to head...they've shut down all of our main threats in attack and they've busted open our defense a few times. I don't think (no disrespect) Fergie has the tactical answer to them at the moment. Chelsea's title to lose in all honesty.

I could see Arsenal finishing in fourth. I'm not convinced that they can beat any of the elite sides. Plus look for the Gunners to lose to their north london rivals in at least one fixture. Their player to watch though is Aleksandr Hleb...if he can have a big year...maybe they have a chance to finish in the top three.

I don't see why United can't finish second. As long as we can take care of business against the lesser teams...there should be no problem.

[Dark Savante]

I hear ya, but what I really meant was that they just have a better team than we do, thus, not only will it be tough to beat them head to head, but they will likely do better against the other teams as well.

We didn't lose the title last year because Chelsea beat us...we lost it because they were better able to beat the other teams (as you pointed out).
Which came down to squad depth. Are we any different this season from last to affect that?

Our first xi is never the problem but as has been pointe out.. if (m)any of them go down with an injury we are in trouble. i.e Rio, Keane and perhaps Ruud.

[50 Euro]

Which came down to squad depth. Are we any different this season from last to affect that?

Our first xi is never the problem but as has been pointe out.. if (m)any of them go down with an injury we are in trouble. i.e Rio, Keane and perhaps Ruud.

PArk should help out some, but my optimism lies mainly in the fact that the preparations for this year seem to have been better and Utd are in better shape to start the season (Rooney, Heinze, Rio, Ronaldo all present and fit).

I still want another signing, though :cool:

[Vermont Red]

First of all, if Chelsea reaches 95 points then they win the title again no matter what. But it is unlikely that Chelsea will be better or even as good as last season, no matter who they have added. In general, teams in any sport do not have record-breaking seasons repeatedly. Chelsea will still be good, but they will come back to the pack.

Why? The inevitable letdown after winning a title. The likelihood that some things that went their way last season will go against them. Issues involving playing time between members of their squad. In addition, Carvahlo and Gallas can take Terry's place, but they cannot replace him. And who replaces Lampard? Gudjohnson and Makelele are also very valuable. The depth is impressive but not overly so. Take Terry or Lamps from the lineup and its a different team.

United will end the season with more points than last season. United will score more goals, draw fewer games and generally be more consistent. Will it be enough to catch Chelsea? If United gets to 86-89 points then I like our chances. That sounds like a lot compared to last season but imagine if five or six of the draws turned into wins. That's 10-12 points.

Finally, who cares what the bookies say. Odds are based on perception, set up to make sure that money is bet evenly on both sides. It's not surprise that the public sees Chelsea as a juggernaut and the bookies take advantage. But we are not the general public. We are the educated public. We know what the others do not: United will be in the thick of the title race this season.

[johno]

Which came down to squad depth. Are we any different this season from last to affect that?


no, it came down to scoring goals... that's all we lacked last season.. the defence and midfield were fine... we've removed Phil from the equation and we're adding Smith, I don't see how Smith can possibly be worse than Phil Neville in CM based on what he's shown thus far. We've added Park so we've got an abundance of depth on the wings so much so that if Scholes went down, we could slot Rooney into his spot and probably have a better team than one w/ Rooney as a wingforward with either Giggs or Park taking his spot opposite of Ronaldo. Park is also capable of playing in the midfield trio, compare him to Fletcher (does the hard work Keane can't anymore, but he's way more penetrative and more energetic and creative).

The only issue is Smith being Keane's backup... I can't recall a single game that we should have won that we didn't that came down to poor play in midfield or poor play from Phil/O'Shea when covering for Keane... most of our disapointments were due to a lack of finishing our chances, or perhaps a lack of proper clear cut chances.

In terms of improving what was faulty last season I think we've done a good job... we've got a much better bench and if we added Cicinho and a CM I'd make us favorites. Even without those, I like our chances if we stay healthy.

[Dark Savante]

no, it came down to scoring goals... .
Which iwas a by-product of not having the depth to cover Ruud Saha)...has that been altered? Saha is still challenging Woodgate for treatment room minutes and he is supposed to be Ruud's direct replacement - that scenario hasn't changed.


that's all we lacked last season.. the defence and midfield were fine...
Aesthetically, yes. Production of goals, no, the midfield was not fine. I'm only asking what or how things have changed from last year to this one. Having a pre-season together is huge..having Ruud back is huge but does the fact that if Ruud goes down again we are stuffed change? I think not. I admire Milan in particular for how they have their strikers set-up. They must surely be able to cover for any outs or eventuality as a peer(if we are to call ourselves that- i would assume we would) can we say the same?Chelsea have Crespo, Drogba and Gudjohnssn all 3 can lead the line..if we use Rooney there then he is not where he should be..and with sicknote offering no cover for Ruud who do we use as Cf with a Ruud outage? It's a straight question, not trying to drum up any arguement..it is something that has to realistically confronted.


we've removed Phil from the equation and we're adding Smith, I don't see how Smith can possibly be worse than Phil Neville in CM based on what he's shown thus far. We've added Park so we've got an abundance of depth on the wings so much so that if Scholes went down, we could slot Rooney into his spot and probably have a better team than one w/ Rooney as a wingforward with either Giggs or Park taking his spot opposite of Ronaldo. Park is also capable of playing in the midfield trio, compare him to Fletcher (does the hard work Keane can't anymore, but he's way more penetrative and more energetic and creative).

The only issue is Smith being Keane's backup... I can't recall a single game that we should have won that we didn't that came down to poor play in midfield or poor play from Phil/O'Shea when covering for Keane... most of our disapointments were due to a lack of finishing our chances, or perhaps a lack of proper clear cut chances.

In terms of improving what was faulty last season I think we've done a good job... we've got a much better bench and if we added Cicinho and a CM I'd make us favorites. Even without those, I like our chances if we stay healthy.
This is all somewhat true. It works alot on the assumption that Park will slide straight into the league with no problems however...is that fair on him? What I find strange now is that in the past all our signings (even as recently as Forlan, Djemba, Klebs, Miller) had a 2-3year period where they were allowed to find their feet because we could cope without them...now, we REALLY need cover for our maturing stars...they can no longer be the be all and end all of us...the cover has no time to settle in...I feel for Park, the pressure on him could be immense!

[Dark Savante]

PArk should help out some, but my optimism lies mainly in the fact that the preparations for this year seem to have been better and Utd are in better shape to start the season (Rooney, Heinze, Rio, Ronaldo all present and fit).

I still want another signing, though :cool:
I agree on all counts. Pre-season together is major. And, I certainly hope we make abother signing.

[StrikerCW]

Odds are also based to help people make money so therefore can't be taken as what people actually think, but what will make the bookeys most money if I am not mistaken.

First of all, good post VR I agree with what you say. I hate all this glass half empty bull. I suppose you could look at it any way you want though. I do not believe the Mafia can pull off two great seasons in a row.

If we can indeed score these chances we need against the mid-to-lower table teams, that we didn't do last season, we WILL get an extra 10-15 points which would put us right up there with the Mafia. I believe as long as everyone stays healthy, we DO have just as good a first-team as any other team in the league, I don't care what you guys say. We have the best offensive power in the front. Not the greatest midfield, but it suffices. Additionally, if Rio, VDS and Gabby stay healthy, there are 3 of the top players in their positions in the league. Gary is also great at RB, but if Cicero comes, Gary in the middle might also be a good partnership with Rio. That adds to be probably the second best defense, behind Mafia which is where our goal against were last season-- second place.

It is now just a matter of staying healthy and keeping in form as to challenging for OUR title, ladies and gentlemen.

[Val1]

Except that it always comes down to injuries, and any team that starts out saying "We have to remain healthy to compete with X" is going to lose out.

Chelsea were without Robben and Duff for a lot of games, and still had a one loss season. Adding SWP just adds to the depth, but it's more than depth, it's real skill. The one weak spot was striker and bringing back Crespo may light a fire under Drogba's butt, which was solely lacking last year.

And then there's JM. Some coaches allow their team to slide back after winning the championship, I don't see JM allowing anyone to slip at all. The difficulty for Chelsea will be that championship teams tend to wear bullseyes, so every game is harder. But in soccer, it's easier to eke out points against the tougher lower tier opponents just because the game can end in a draw and the flukes can be minimized.

Chelsea got markedly better in the offseason (and they may still get Essien) and the jury's out as to whether Man Utd or Arsenal got any better. The title is Chelsea's to lose.

[StrikerCW]

Oh forgot to say, that in conclusion I believe the reason Mafia is 'better'than us is solely because they have the depth we don't have; not because they have a better first team as some say.