Do we need anymore proof that Rooney should be played in a central area?

[Dark Savante]

If you watched the CL quallie last night..or Rooney for England or Rooney for us when played centrally up front......don't you think he is a totally different player when played in his natural position(s) (support stri/in the hole)

I'm going to be sick to my teeth if we see Rooney out wide for stretches of this season.... he has all the credentials to run our attack - he exhibited it again last night being the key that unlocked the game.

It looked like a pseudo 4-4-2 to me last night...because we were so much better than the opposition our players in attack could pretty much roam and do what they wanted but, if we play teams that can attack us hard enough to force our attackers into defensive positions, when we do win the ball back and counter we have to have a system in place that is automatic, where our players know what they are doing and where they are going in a split second, where should Rooney go?

Putting him wide is just a waste imo. Prawn's thought on him being a CM makes sense..but is it more of a waste then him being put out wide? Make no mistake, both are a waste of Rooney's ralent but which is the lesser of two evils?

I believe this all falls back to our midfield. Keane, Scholes and Fletcher. In no combination can we use them for a 4-4-2.

Fletch-Keane lacks goals, creativity and penetration.

Scholes Keane doesn't have super Keano to do the defensive work of two people and longer

Scholes-Fletcher has no defensive bite.

This thread isn't to moan about our midfield (it is quite good as a 3man jobby) the point I'm trying to make is that if we want to optimise a true catalyst he needs to be put in the middle of the action and not ushered into 'silly'(for him) positions out wider where he can't put anywhere near as much of his impetus into a game as he is capable of.

What are we to do?

I'm all in favour of us creating our own hybrid system just how Juve, Milan, Barca and Real have but it would need Fletch' to go wide in attacks and let Rooney sit in a pseudo hole instead of Fletch' running into those positions in attacks. this:

Nominal abd in defence:

-----------VDS
-----Rio-------New guy:rolleyes:/Brown
G.N-------------------------HEinze
----------Keane
----Fletcher---Scholes
Rooney-------------Ronaldo
----------VNR

In an actual attack

-----------VDS
-----Rio-------New guy :rolleyes: /Brown
G.N-------------------------Heinze
----------Keane
---------------Scholes
Fletch
---------------------Ronaldo
--------Rooney
---------------VNR

This is very similar to what we were doing last night, but can we do it in big games? Can Fletcher - whose proven in the past he is not comfortable out wide right - function like that in attack? Will it leave us vulnerable to the counter? Is Rooney worth such an experiemt?

How do we optimise Wayne Rooney?

[Teso Dos Bichos]

--------RVN-------
--------WR--------
<<<<<<<<<CR>>>>
----PS - RK - DF---
GBH - MS - RF - GN
--------VDS-------


There are three things to note:

A three-man midfield is essential
Rooney must be played in the hole
Ronaldo must be given a free role to roam either wing


The key will be Heinze and Neville providing support down the flanks to cover for the absence of one winger. Scholes has played in a left-wing role before and Fletcher has done similar. So when we are attacking they should push out slightly to provide cover and give the fullbacks an option to pass to.

[comme]

Sorry DS, are you actually suggesting dropping Giggs when fit?

And playing Fletcher ahead of him?

[Dark Savante]

Sorry DS, are you actually suggesting dropping Giggs when fit?

And playing Fletcher ahead of him?
Doesn't really matter what my opinion is.. SAF hasn't started Giggs in our fully fit 1stteam for a long time and I doubt he'll get the nod over either Rooney or Ronaldo in the future ( who he is competition with not Fletcher) I doubt Giggs is 1st choice in Fergie's mind any more.

[johno]

It happened in the preseason too... the key to it working is a vertical game that has the option of width, not a wide game that tries to go vertical. Fletcher made some nice passes on the asian tour from out wide and actually set up a goal from the right flank. The key is having Ruud, Rooney and Ronaldo all moving in spaces and drawing the attention of the 4 main defenders. Unless Fletcher is pressed for time, he can play easily on the right. Remember, his weakness has been the time he takes to make passes and his lack of dribbling ability. Much in the way Beckham would not get too deep and rather swing in deep crosses, or when he gets deep he does so late and off the ball, Fletcher can do the same. With options behind him (RB) to his left (CM) and in front of him, Fletcher should be able to be competent in that role, but only until Neville overlaps, he should then drop off and hold or get into the box for a header.

The difference between Fletcher playing RM in attack in the 433 and the 442 is that unless Rooney (withdrawn) came to him, he had no options in attack w/ the other creative attacking player (Giggs/Ronaldo) being all the way on the opposite side of the field. In the 433, we'll depend on the fullbacks for width from time to time and allow for more free movement from our front 3 which as we saw, can be devastating when they link up.

[Vermont Red]

Based on yesterday's game, it certainly looks like United is going to use the hybrid "Christmas tree" formation (4-3-2-1) like Milan used last season. It will be interesting to see how it works against better competition as it requires a lot of support from RB and LB going forward and leaves a lot of ground for the three midfielders to cover when defending. I know the competition was week last night but the team looked good in the formation.

[Rei de Boston]

Based on yesterday's game, it certainly looks like United is going to use the hybrid "Christmas tree" formation (4-3-2-1) like Milan used last season. It will be interesting to see how it works against better competition as it requires a lot of support from RB and LB going forward and leaves a lot of ground for the three midfielders to cover when defending. I know the competition was week last night but the team looked good in the formation.

If we do go and use this hybrid more this season I think it will begin to highlight the need we have for cover for Gary. I am a big gary fan but when you look at his back up being Brown...things get iffy. This hybrid and a 433 require more out of the fullbacks, which Gabby and Gary are able to do. But what happens if injury or fatigue in the later part of the season?

A hybrid to take full advantage of both Rooney and Ronaldo is essential but I think some cover in the back might be needed by the January window.

[comme]

Doesn't really matter what my opinion is.. SAF hasn't started Giggs in our fully fit 1stteam for a long time and I doubt he'll get the nod over either Rooney or Ronaldo in the future ( who he is competition with not Fletcher) I doubt Giggs is 1st choice in Fergie's mind any more.

Was that not due to a lack of fitness/form when United did have a fully fit team?

Given Giggs form at the turn of the year, leaving him out of the first team would be insane.

[johno]

Was that not due to a lack of fitness/form when United did have a fully fit team?

Given Giggs form at the turn of the year, leaving him out of the first team would be insane.

yeah, but its not like he was in that form all year long was it? also, I'd love to see 442... however that means Ronaldo is played more on the wings and not allowed to contribute to the attack as much and Fletcher's development will slow if not halt altogether w/ out playing time. Not to mention the added defensive responsibilty we'd give to Ronaldo and Scholes who are free to just press when they feel like in the 433 leaving real defence to better defenders.

I think Giggs is a good player, but to me, he's not as good as Rooney and Ronaldo are right now and those are the players taking his spot, not Fletcher or Scholes... we can't field a Keane/Scholes midfield anymore, we'd get overrun, especially w/ Ronaldo on one wing. If we played Giggs and Park, maybe we'd have a shot at it, but Ronaldo plays too little defence to be effective cover for an aging CM partnership.

[manuniked]

Based on yesterday's game, it certainly looks like United is going to use the hybrid "Christmas tree" formation (4-3-2-1) like Milan used last season. It will be interesting to see how it works against better competition as it requires a lot of support from RB and LB going forward and leaves a lot of ground for the three midfielders to cover when defending. I know the competition was week last night but the team looked good in the formation.

I think we play more of a 4-1-2-2-1 formation. Keano is always sitting much deeper than scholes and Fletch.
As for Giggs, he doen't deserve to get in to the first 11 at present. The 4-3-3 formation suits best with the players available. If we ever get a top class central m/f we can talk about taking out keane and fletcher on occasion going back to 2 central midfielders. for eg if we had an essien or a gerrard alongside scholes, I'm not sure we'd need fletcher in there although under some circumstances it might still be best. With an aging keano and scholes and fletcher needing beefing up I cannot see how we can do it....