Man Utd - Debrecen - 1st Leg 3rd Rd CL Qual [R]

[johno]

I agree with much of what you said and happen to think 4-3-3 is our best formation and represents the brightest future. However I still feel Ruud is often isolated and the only attacker receiving the ball in a goal scoring position unless the intricate passing comes off which it doesn't always. we aren't providing much in the way of crossing these days either. we used to beat teams in so many ways...
crosses from wings eg sharpe,beckham
cutting in with pace eg kanchelskis, giggs
powerful surges from midfield eg, robson, ince, keane
intricate through balls eg Cantona, teddy etc
pace (cole, yorke,)
skill (yorke, giggs)
in the air (hughes, cole, teddy, Ruud, Yorke, Bruce etc)
goals from defence (bruce, irwin, blackmore)
set pieces (beckham, bruce, Irwin)
and so on
Nowadays we seem to rely to much on Rooney, Ronnie magic.
Do you agree?

Much of what you say is true, but you've got to remember that we are in transition. Were we to get Ballack, we'd have aerial threat, freekicks and the power from deep in midfield we've missed since keane has aged. However, many of the things u noted we still have, albeit, mainly in Rooney and Ronaldo.

You will see the crosses and wide play against opponents who hold the ball more and are positionally sound - we'll have to stetch them, but apart from these few things, this side is growing to be better at many things than the team of 99. What the team is lacking right now is some heart. Wayne Rooney and Alan Smith will help greatly in that department, as will Ji Sung Park.
I like to see United win games like these, but I love to see us win tough games and games where we falter. I'd also like to see us throw caution to the wind abit more and really open up our counter, all three goals were basically quick movements where we played vertical passes.


Oh, and as for the players themselves... Ruud was top class, his first touch to Rooney on Ronaldo's goal was superb and his finish was excellent... Rooney is becoming very very influential - we need a kit with a collar next season.

[gildarkevin]

Well, that was nice. Everything you'd want from your first real outing of the season, at home, in a must-win game. We got to see some players in good form, test out some players and get out with nobody injured.

Small things I took away from the game:

I was holding my breath as Ruud attacked for his goal. It was more important for Ruud that he finish that one than for the team at large. We were going to get more goals. He needs his confidence back. And it is. Perfect finish, as you saw him slow, look up and pick his spot. He was great all game, holding the ball up well and distributing; as mentioned earlier, he is much more than just a finisher.

Rooney was awesome as well. It was interesting to see how deep he dropped to receive the ball on occasion, almost as though he was playing in Scholes' spot. Yet it didn't hurt the attack at all because he was buzzing around the field all night.

The admiration of Park was well warranted. I disagree with the announcer's assessment that the penalty claim "didn't involve much contact", as he was clearly past the defender who had no chance to play the ball and just did what he could to slow Park up. In an EPL game you don't sweat it at 3-0, but when aggregate goals are at stake, every little bit helps. But what you've got to love is his tireless energy and desire to simply take on players on one -- he's really got no fear in that regard. EPL wingbacks will have nightmares about defending Giggs/Ronaldo/Park this season because they just never let up on you.

I was very excited to see Rossi come on, but now think he's still about a year away from the big time. He's just a little too small, even though the skills are there.

All in all, though, I'm REALLY looking forward to Saturday now.

[benni...]

But that player who out-jumped Neville was already in our half of the pitch before the ref blew the whistle. The goal should have been disallowed because of this anway.

So what if they allowed the goal. That would be your excuse? Even If Gary Should have gotten rid of that anyway.

[Vermont Red]

Gary was probably still trying to pick out a Debrecen fan to kick a ball at and next thing he knew the player was on top of him. However, even if Gary had been ready, it's doubtful that he could have done a better acting job in drawing that foul. That's what experience gets you.

[banok]

Match highlight in here: http://gportal.hu/portal/stream/

good quality

[Hawki]

Oh, and as for the players themselves... Ruud was top class, his first touch to Rooney on Ronaldo's goal was superb and his finish was excellent... Rooney is becoming very very influential - we need a kit with a collar next season.

The collar thing is great ... I agree Johno, the distritution between the "3R's" was much better than I expected to see. They are playing unselfishly and seem to really be clicking together. A real chemistry is starting to gel between them that they never had a chance for last season. This really could be the difference this year.
If we can get the midfield on the same page, you'll probably start seeing some of the counter play you've been aluding to. It would sure add a huge dimension to our bag of tricks.

[johno]

yes... the only thing that is still there is Ronaldo's unwillingness to release the ball quickly... for this reason, I don't want him too much in the middle of the field unless he's ahead of the play and pulling a defender out of position or running onto a pass. He will occasionally stop the play and instead of making the instinctive pass, he will check his dribble make room and play a back or lateral pass, killing the attack, he either lacks the speed of thought or the confidence that he CAN make some of those passes that he opts not to make. I guess with practice, both in games and on the training ground he will work that out of his game, but for now, I see him as the main benefactor of the 433. He's got no defence to play, he can be wide or in the middle and he can feed off of Rooney's creativity as well as Ruud's hold up play and set up passes too.

[Hawki]

He will occasionally stop the play and instead of making the instinctive pass, he will check his dribble make room and play a back or lateral pass, killing the attack, he either lacks the speed of thought or the confidence that he CAN make some of those passes that he opts not to make.

I have to believe that that it's more of habit for him rather than inability to quickly recognize the opportunity. He follows a pattern of play that goes way back in his career. I think, as you mentioned, that the 4-3-3 in itself will begin to modify that pattern and we will begin to see a different style emerge from him. I know that watching the 3 begin to interact the way they are is very exciting indeed.

[RhythmandGangsta1825]

Johno has a point on the speed of thought argument...he does lack the ability to recognize the options available to him in a passing sense but then again...thats just not his game at all. The instincts aren't there and about the majority of football is playing on instinct. Ronaldo can be quite disruptive to free flowing football at times but he's improving steadily in that capacity.

Before we start to put such praise into the 4-3-3...we are going to have to see it put to use against better sides than Debrecen. Let's be honest...for much of the game the Hungarians looked like they were indeed out of their depth. I want to see this work effectively against sides that can possess the ball as well...if not...better than United does.

[johno]

Well, not exactly... the 433's main problem last year was breaking down bunkering defences... against teams willing to attack, having Rooney, Ronaldo and Ruud leading the break is a weapon that few can deal with, add Scholes' sharp passing and long range shooting and the potential for quick, 3 to 4 pass moves that happen in less than 10 seconds and cover half a pitch is there.

Against team's that bunker, what we need is some patience, like the build up for Ronaldo's goal, or some luck - like Rooney's goal.. the ball just bounced our way, despite them having 3 defenders and us having 2 attackers, we were fortunate and having an instinctive goalscorer and top notch finisher. Against the lesser teams who bunkered, Ronaldo, Rooney or Giggs would get free and play a ball into the box, but there'd be no one to knock it home, or we'd try to counter, but neither Rooney nor Ronaldo have the skill and strength to hold up the ball like Ruud does, and as such, vertical passes are not as effective and even when they are, w/ Rooney/Ronaldo being the recipients of that pass, we've got one less danger man off the ball to run on to the secondary pass. When Smith played pointman for us, he did well, but he's just not in the same class as Ruud when it comes to first touch, vision and passing... Ruud makes difficult passes look so so easy that we take for granted what he does. His first time touch to Rooney who set up Ronaldo was perfectly weighted and caught the defence off guard, there are only a handful of forwards who are capable of both that type of pass and the control, power and finishing ability to take that very same pass and turn and score.

[K:theCore]

I was really starting to think there were too many cooks in the kitchen at ManU.

Im kinda surprised by the sync that the players seemed to be in against the Hungarians. The three Rs seemed to play off of eachother extremely well.

With regard to Park, his first season with PSV was overshadowed by a few things including a nagging injury that he failed to tell anybody about and a few teammates who werent willing to really give him a chance. Then, once Kezman and Roben left, Park suddenly steps into the light and really turns it on his second season. In light of this, Im wondering how Park will react with so many talented players around him. Will he cower or will embrace this situation?

Completely anticipating the upcoming season.

[Hooplehead]

does anybody know of a place where i can download the entire game?

http://www.fbtz.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=41

Oh, you need to register, or the page will lokk blank to you otherwise.

[DutchFootballRulez]

I was really starting to think there were too many cooks in the kitchen at ManU.

With regard to Park, his first season with PSV was overshadowed by a few things including a nagging injury that he failed to tell anybody about and a few teammates who werent willing to really give him a chance. Then, once Kezman and Robben left, Park suddenly steps into the light and really turns it on his second season. In light of this, Im wondering how Park will react with so many talented players around him. Will he cower or will embrace this situation?


If his teammates froze him out then its a matter of whether Park's attitude turned them off (I doubt it) or other players' had issues. If Park is carrying injuries he needs to be upfront about it. Park would be great for breaking down defences that bunker. Holding the ball on the wing/switching quickly and pinging the ball in while Park makes a mad, diagonal, dash into the box to tee-up Ruud/Rooney/Scholes/Ronaldo.

[Alan_V]

If his teammates froze him out then its a matter of whether Park's attitude turned them off (I doubt it) or other players' had issues. If Park is carrying injuries he needs to be upfront about it. Park would be great for breaking down defences that bunker. Holding the ball on the wing/switching quickly and pinging the ball in while Park makes a mad, diagonal, dash into the box to tee-up Ruud/Rooney/Scholes/Ronaldo.

HAving worked with Koreans and Japanese over the last 18 years, I can tell you that being 'upfront' is no in their upbringing. Showing weakness is not something very forthcoming, unless it's a truly dibilitating injury. If he felt it was not that bad and could work around it, he wouldn't let on.

[K:theCore]

If his teammates froze him out then its a matter of whether Park's attitude turned them off (I doubt it) or other players' had issues. If Park is carrying injuries he needs to be upfront about it. Park would be great for breaking down defences that bunker. Holding the ball on the wing/switching quickly and pinging the ball in while Park makes a mad, diagonal, dash into the box to tee-up Ruud/Rooney/Scholes/Ronaldo.

From what I understand, a lot of his teammates (interestingly enough Kezman and MVB were among them reportedly) openly disapproved of Hiddink bringing Koreans to PSV because they saw it as just a favor to Korea. I liked how Park brushed these guys off and continued on with his business. Shows a lot of resilience on his part.

I think youre on the same page with Fergie though on how Park should be utilized. He's not a striker. He needs to use his hustle, create chances, and draw players off the men in front.

[Motterman]

From what I understand, a lot of his teammates (interestingly enough Kezman and MVB were among them reportedly)

That Kezman is a real frickin joke...

[Bounty Hunta]

I saw the game live, Just a small contribution of my opinions on the match, although overall pleased by the result being the most important thing I must say that I was concerned by the performance of individuals which to me was the main reason for a not very good team performance.

Keane: Ok coming back from slight injury but did not do the simple things well, was horendously late for tackles just cos he could not get there in time.

Scholes: Really concerned me as he gave the ball away so many times, his passing was so inacurrate and I would not pick him in 1st 11 on that performance (but it was just one game hopefully) I find my self sayin that we now need at least an average let alone top performance from scholes again.

O'shea: Disapointment as I was hoping to see him excel again this season.... He was of the pace for a not very pacey game, did not carry the ball forward as he had the abillity to do so and distribution was poor. he needs to show his potential this year.

Fletcher: Not terrible, not a bad passer, but as always just does not affect the game sometimes it feels like we are playing with 10 men

Neville: One of the very few bad games that I think Gary has had being one of our most consistent and reliable players over the last decade. Poor distribution, poor positioning, although he ventured forward as usual his final balls in the box were very very bad.

I did see positives though.... Agreeing with everyone that Park was great, the result of course was positive, Although Ruud was not great again he showed a good improvement and for me works brilliantly with Rooney who by the way was fantastic with Ronaldo. The one positive I think that perhaps differs in opinion of most of you on here is that I think Alan Smith showed very good potential after a iffy 1st 5min. To me he should be ahead of Fletcher. I already see v good potential in Smith... even if Fletcher is still young and is not awful he cannot affect a game in the way a top player needs to.

[RhythmandGangsta1825]

I saw the game live, Just a small contribution of my opinions on the match, although overall pleased by the result being the most important thing I must say that I was concerned by the performance of individuals which to me was the main reason for a not very good team performance.

Keane: Ok coming back from slight injury but did not do the simple things well, was horendously late for tackles just cos he could not get there in time.

Scholes: Really concerned me as he gave the ball away so many times, his passing was so inacurrate and I would not pick him in 1st 11 on that performance (but it was just one game hopefully) I find my self sayin that we now need at least an average let alone top performance from scholes again.

O'shea: Disapointment as I was hoping to see him excel again this season.... He was of the pace for a not very pacey game, did not carry the ball forward as he had the abillity to do so and distribution was poor. he needs to show his potential this year.

Fletcher: Not terrible, not a bad passer, but as always just does not affect the game sometimes it feels like we are playing with 10 men

Neville: One of the very few bad games that I think Gary has had being one of our most consistent and reliable players over the last decade. Poor distribution, poor positioning, although he ventured forward as usual his final balls in the box were very very bad.

I did see positives though.... Agreeing with everyone that Park was great, the result of course was positive, Although Ruud was not great again he showed a good improvement and for me works brilliantly with Rooney who by the way was fantastic with Ronaldo. The one positive I think that perhaps differs in opinion of most of you on here is that I think Alan Smith showed very good potential after a iffy 1st 5min. To me he should be ahead of Fletcher. I already see v good potential in Smith... even if Fletcher is still young and is not awful he cannot affect a game in the way a top player needs to.

Relax man...it is only the beginning of August and United has just played a Champions League Qualifier and pretty much got the result that was needed. You had some great points and analysis though. We don't really need world class performances at this time of year.

Fletch, he's very steady...I can say that much for him. What I like about him is that he keeps the game very simple and does the little things. He's not the best athlete in the world though...not very athletic and that's my major knock on him.


Smithy on the other hand, he makes me very nervous playing this deep role. I don't want to clatter him anymore than I already have though. I'm going to have to reserve any other judgments until further notice.


I have no explanation for Gary Neville though...it was one of those matches for him I guess and his distribution in the final third has always been poor. He's definitely not on the level of a Willy Sagnol or an Andreas Hinkel when it comes to proficiency with that.

Other than that...all is well as far as this match is concerned. Great post.

[johno]

I'd like to serve notice to all the Smith haters and say that you are idiots... give the man a chance...

I did not see the game live... only caught the download... the "mistake" he made that caused a shot was him breaking up an attack and as a result getting pushed and falling, as he lost control the ball was deflected off a Debrecen player and another one shot... the way I heard the radio commentary and the way some people reacted one would have sworn Smith had ages on the ball and then played a Silvestre like pass.

Other than that blemish, he did very well, his distribution was good and quick and he made one or two EXCELLENT decisions in terms of outlet passes.

Fletcher continues to grow. In the 2nd half at one point he got a ball on the right side of our backline and turned away from 2 defenders playing a magnificent outside of the foot outlet pass to O'Shea on the other side of the field that was just magical.

Believe it or not, I can see Fletcher leading our midfield sometime in the future. He won't be a Keane and he certainly wont be a Scholes, but his passing, work-rate and vision are improving and he's becoming very very dependable. A Fletcher/Jones or Fletcher/Park pairing in the near future would not suprise me (near future being 2years).

Park - man oh man... I was delighted with what he did on the ball, very lively, but its what he did off the ball, he made some fantastic off the ball runs and got into superb positions, I can fancy him scoring and creating a few goals for us this season off the bench. On defence he was crazy, he tried to close down the entire team. A player like him playing one of the wings is going to make teams like Chelsea and Milan who like to sit back, think twice because he will force a mistake every now and then.

Rooney - IMMENSE... control, vision, strength. My favorite bit was 2nd half when he beat 2 guys and sensed a 3rd coming while not even facing him, he turned and lifted the ball over the sliding tackle, but he got caught trying to leap the challenge.

[benni...]

Johno, we are an idiot because we know he didnt really have a good game? No one said he isnt going to make it there, or such, just feeling nervous. He gave the ball away twice. I watched the game like 3 times of setanta sports. Johno, there is no need to call someone an idiot.