Sxha or Owen?

[Dark Savante]

I was waiting for this thread to spring up..but no-one has made it, so I will.

The tabloids are constantly linking us with Owen. If he comes here I really can't see how Saha can. Next year is a WC year..and he can't afford to be 4th choice.

In a direct head to head which player would you rather have out of Owen and Saha?

This is based strictly on ability and what each can offer us. None of this he's a midget/he played for pool bollocks please. The reality is he may be coming here whether you like it or not. So, on talent alone, which would you take? Vote away lets settle this in a direct head to head for once instead of skirting the issue with references that have nothing to do with what can be delivered on a pitch.

[johno]

I'll vote, however its more than just talent... if Owen coming at Saha's expense means we don't move for a CM then even if Owen is better than Saha its still not a smart move...

However, I will still vote just based on talent/ability.

[MtP07]

Based on talent alone, I voted for Owen.

However, at the expense of Saha and money that could go to fill other priority positions, I do not want Owen.

[Dark Savante]

I'll vote, however its more than just talent... if Owen coming at Saha's expense means we don't move for a CM then even if Owen is better than Saha its still not a smart move...

However, I will still vote just based on talent/ability.
Saha will be sold if Owen comes... So techinically I don't think he would hinder us in getting a CM.

[DCSharksFC]

owen

u all need some work in defense and midfield though, van der sar, carroll, and howard will be another firing range again

[jscott23]

owen

u all need some work in defense and midfield though, van der sar, carroll, and howard will be another firing range again

Brian Carroll plays for DC United ;)

[johno]

Saha will be sold if Owen comes... So techinically I don't think he would hinder us in getting a CM.

what makes you think we'll get money for Saha when we have... Ruud, Owen, Rooney, Smith, Bellion and Ole... clubs will say that we HAVE to sell and thus, won't pay up much at all... I'd be suprised if we got any thing above 5M for him and even then we'd be putting out 6-7M to get Owen (who'll prolly cost more than that anyway, seeing as its United buying)

[Dark Savante]

what makes you think we'll get money for Saha when we have... Ruud, Owen, Rooney, Smith, Bellion and Ole... clubs will say that we HAVE to sell and thus, won't pay up much at all... I'd be suprised if we got any thing above 5M for him and even then we'd be putting out 6-7M to get Owen (who'll prolly cost more than that anyway, seeing as its United buying)
Really depends on the club buying. If Newcastle (the dream sucker club - routinely overpay for no apparent reason) do not land Anelka then they are a viable option. You could even see Saha used in a trade. Other English clubs would pay a decent fee for him. Villa are another one. Quite a few clubs need a striker so they are no less desperate to buy then we would be to sell.

[Prawn Sandwich]

For those wondering where this post of DS's came from.... this thread was born out of an exchange of views on the transfer thread which threatened to swamp the originals purpose......

ps - I'm the apparent nutter who thinks Rooney may be better utilised as a CM than as a support striker :o

You don't think Rooney has been devestating when playing there for England/United? The array of goals he has scored in his fledgling career all in supp stri areas of the pitch are more then most will achieve in 15years of being a pro.

Absolutely he has - the kid has surpassed expectations at every step he's taken. I also think that he could use his overall skills better as the central driving force of our whole attack (think Kaka but with cajones).

He doesn't have the temprament to be a CM. Besides, you don't think it's a waste of money to utilise such a player outside the final 3rd?

Yes - the temprament is a concern (hell, when I initially mentioned this I joked the bugger would set a new EPL record for red cards in one season). I seem to remember a similar CM who had somewhat of a temprament problem as well when he joined us - he didn't turn out too badly did he?

As to the money issue. Essentially this is irrelevant now that the purchase has been made - the issue is how do we fit all the individual players together to maximise the whole (ie the overall ability of the team). Bring into consideration the hopefully successful integration of our two brightest prospects from the reserves (Rossi and Jones) and I believe we would derive the most benefit from Rooney by dropping him into a CM role.

By doing this we ensure a place for our most talented player whether we play 4-3-3 or 4-4-2 (with Owen and Ruud up front in this option - just to confirm some tenuous link to the theme of this thread ;) ). I don't like Rooney out wide in a 4-3-3 - he's always looked at his most dangerous through the centre.

On natural talent Rooney >Scholes ever was..and Rooney doesn't have the ghosting instinct to be as effective as Scholes from midfield imo.

You could well be right here - but I've got a funny feeling the kid is such a natural that he'd pick it up pretty damn quickly after he was moved to the new position...

[Prawn Sandwich]

Really depends on the club buying. If Newcastle (the dream sucker club - routinely overpay for no apparent reason) do not land Anelka then they are a viable option. You could even see Saha used in a trade. Other English clubs would pay a decent fee for him. Villa are another one. Quite a few clubs need a striker so they are no less desperate to buy then we would be to sell.
Yup - and he's a proven commodity in the EPL which will offset some of the loss in value we'd receive from the perceived issue of his history of injuries....

[Mikey10]

I'll vote, however its more than just talent... if Owen coming at Saha's expense means we don't move for a CM then even if Owen is better than Saha its still not a smart move...

However, I will still vote just based on talent/ability.


Sahahaha has more talent and ability than Owen? Have u been drinking paint?

Let's hope he doesn't join anyway, I couldn't bear to see Owen playing in front of a bunch of glory hunting Cockney Reds while eating their prawn sandwhiches.

[nicephoras]

Despite the unfortunate name of Mikey's team (;)), I have to agree with him. Anyone who thinks Saha is more talented than Owen has been drinking paint by the bucket.

[Dark Savante]

For those wondering where this post of DS's came from.... this thread was born out of an exchange of views on the transfer thread which threatened to swamp the originals purpose......

ps - I'm the apparent nutter who thinks Rooney may be better utilised as a CM than as a support striker :o



Absolutely he has - the kid has surpassed expectations at every step he's taken. I also think that he could use his overall skills better as the central driving force of our whole attack (think Kaka but with cajones).



Yes - the temprament is a concern (hell, when I initially mentioned this I joked the bugger would set a new EPL record for red cards in one season). I seem to remember a similar CM who had somewhat of a temprament problem as well when he joined us - he didn't turn out too badly did he?

As to the money issue. Essentially this is irrelevant now that the purchase has been made - the issue is how do we fit all the individual players together to maximise the whole (ie the overall ability of the team). Bring into consideration the hopefully successful integration of our two brightest prospects from the reserves (Rossi and Jones) and I believe we would derive the most benefit from Rooney by dropping him into a CM role.

By doing this we ensure a place for our most talented player whether we play 4-3-3 or 4-4-2 (with Owen and Ruud up front in this option - just to confirm some tenuous link to the theme of this thread ;) ). I don't like Rooney out wide in a 4-3-3 - he's always looked at his most dangerous through the centre.



You could well be right here - but I've got a funny feeling the kid is such a natural that he'd pick it up pretty damn quickly after he was moved to the new position...
It's funny, I see exactly where you are coming from in what you are saying...in many ways he reminds me of a Bobby Charlton with hair and a temper..but unlike Bobby and many, many others he has a certain something that makes me feel it is essential to keep him as far forward with as much licence to roam as possible. Playing CM brings with it responsibility and discipline...Rooney is that kind of player I wouldn't want to see reigned in...a mustang has no use for a saddle (all bow to ZANI) I think he is being wasted as it is. He should be dead centre in the final 3rd imo he's just lethal there.

He is blighted by his natural versatility and zest and methinks that's one of the reasons you mentioned him as a CM - because he could do it, I agree. But I don't think you could ever optimise him anywhere but in that 2nd striker role, where he can be off the cuff..where he has the choice of whether to run back and defend, where he can drag a CB/DM out of position and so on. I kind of wish he was linear so that we wouldn't see him out wide - a total waste.

What I have pointed to with Rooney is that he has always looked his most lethal in the 2nd stri' role no matter who for. He even looks more suited to a CF role than a CM one imo. He did it with ease when we asked him too even though he has never played there. You're probably right, he could do the same at CM but I think it is limiting his ability not maximising it.

The huge difference between he and Scholes is that Scholes was converted to CM because he wasn't going to make it as a stellar striker. He is clinical, he is smart, but he lacked a few essential ingredients to ever truly make it there. This doesn't apply for Rooney and is why I don't see a reason to convert or use Rooney at CM. I don't know where you stand on thoughts of Rooney's natural talent but I believe we haven't seen anything like him here since Best...i.e a true, undisputed, natural genius. Where he ends up is anyone's guess but on raw talent no-one touches him since Besty so I dunno, I would want him used in his optimal position (Supp stri) and not experimented with just to accomodate others. If anything, the team should be built around Rooney and not he slotted in just because he is versatile. imo.

[Prawn Sandwich]

so, the best way to create chances for Ruud is to pair him w/ a goal mouth striker like Owen, as opposed to a more creative player like Rooney? With the eventual goal to take the most explosive player in the final 3rd, and make him our holding mid of the future? WHY??? We've got Fletcher and Jones to mold into the player we need to eventually replace Keane if we want to mold someone, playing Rooney in CM would be hindering his development.

No - the chances for Ruud will principally come from the wings via Ronaldo and Park. Rooney has already demonstrated his ability last season to play longer passes which cut open defences and create chances for the principal strikers. He will still be able to do this from the CM position.

Not sure where you got the impression that I thought Rooney was to develop into a holding mid - that would be crazy. As you say we already have the two options internally as it is with Jones and Fletcher. What I'm advocating is the eventual combination of either Jones/Fletcher/Rooney in a 4-3-3 or Rooney and Jones/Fletcher in a 4-4-2.

Again - to link this back to the thread topic, if we secure Owen and move Rooney back to CM then we can go for either a 4-4-2 with Owen and Ruud up front supported by Keane, Rooney, Ronaldo and Park/Giggs in midfield. This can then mutate to a 4-3-3 with Ruud/Owen, Ronaldo and Park/Giggs up front and Keane, Rooney and Fletcher in midfield. If we went this route then that would allow us to invest further into a quality CB signing (Andrade, Chivu etc) that we need to solidify the team as whole.

Longer term I think we will have the personnel with the experience to properly implement a 4-3-3 with Ruud/Owen/Rossi up front supported by Park/Richardson and Ronaldo and with a midfield of Jones, Fletcher and Rooney.

[Prawn Sandwich]

It's funny, I see exactly where you are coming from in what you are saying...in many ways he reminds me of a Bobby Charlton with hair and a temper..but unlike Bobby and many, many others he has a certain something that makes me feel it is essential to keep him as far forward with as much licence to roam as possible. Playing CM brings with it responsibility and discipline...Rooney is that kind of player I wouldn't want to see reigned in...a mustang has no use for a saddle (all bow to ZANI) I think he is being wasted as it is. He should be dead centre in the final 3rd imo he's just lethal there.

He is blighted by his natural versatility and zest and methinks that's one of the reasons you mentioned him as a CM - because he could do it, I agree. But I don't think you could ever optimise him anywhere but in that 2nd striker role, where he can be off the cuff..where he has the choice of whether to run back and defend, where he can drag a CB/DM out of position and so on. I kind of wish he was linear so that we wouldn't see him out wide - a total waste.

What I have pointed to with Rooney is that he has always looked his most lethal in the 2nd stri' role no matter who for. He even looks more suited to a CF role than a CM one imo. He did it with ease when we asked him too even though he has never played there. You're probably right, he could do the same at CM but I think it is limiting his ability not maximising it.

The huge difference between he and Scholes is that Scholes was converted to CM because he wasn't going to make it as a stellar striker. He is clinical, he is smart, but he lacked a few essential ingredients to ever truly make it there. This doesn't apply for Rooney and is why I don't see a reason to convert or use Rooney at CM. I don't know where you stand on thoughts of Rooney's natural talent but I believe we haven't seen anything like him here since Best...i.e a true, undisputed, natural genius. Where he ends up is anyone's guess but on raw talent no-one touches him since Besty so I dunno, I would want him used in his optimal position (Supp stri) and not experimented with just to accomodate others. If anything, the team should be built around Rooney and not he slotted in just because he is versatile. imo.
Great points and I love the comparison with Bobby Charlton - hadn't made that mental link before but now that you mention it.....

I'd prefer Rooney to play CM in a 4-3-3 alongside Fletcher and Keane (replaced by Jones in a year or two) - that, I think, would give Rooney the freedom that you refer to. True, we would lose some of the benefits of his being up front as often but I think he would actually be involved in the overall game more at CM/AM and, therefore, would be able to exert a greater influence on the game.

As to my thoughts on his natural talent? Couldn't be higher in all honesty, it's been a long, long, long time since I've seen someone so natural and yet so strong at the same time. Considering his age the potential for growth in both technique, strength and awareness is quite frightening.

[Iplayedforchelsea]

Brian Carroll plays for DC United ;)

And Roy Caroll plays for West Ham.

Don't blame me, I voted for Owen.

[Dark Savante]

Great points and I love the comparison with Bobby Charlton - hadn't made that mental link before but now that you mention it.....

I'd prefer Rooney to play CM in a 4-3-3 alongside Fletcher and Keane (replaced by Jones in a year or two) - that, I think, would give Rooney the freedom that you refer to. True, we would lose some of the benefits of his being up front as often but I think he would actually be involved in the overall game more at CM/AM and, therefore, would be able to exert a greater influence on the game.

As to my thoughts on his natural talent? Couldn't be higher in all honesty, it's been a long, long, long time since I've seen someone so natural and yet so strong at the same time. Considering his age the potential for growth in both technique, strength and awareness is quite frightening.
I do hope we see him used at supp stri before any other position for him is attempted and at least give him the chance to show what he can do there for us.. oh where art our 4-4-2? :(

The CM thing is something I'm against but can see why you'd suggest it. That was a rather quick empasse dontcha think? ;)

[Prawn Sandwich]

I do hope we see him used at supp stri before any other position for him is attempted and at least give him the chance to show what he can do there for us.. oh where art our 4-4-2? :(

The CM thing is something I'm against but can see why you'd suggest it. That was a rather quick empasse dontcha think? ;)
LOL

I can see a 4-4-2 working with Ruud/Rooney up front and Jones/Fletcher in the centre - problem is that that option doesn't fix our immediate need to breathe some life into the centre of the park, it's a shame Jones isn't a couple of years older :(

I still think we should drop Saha and bring in Owen though - problem is that I can't see Owen being happy sitting on our bench instead of Reals (something which will happen if Ruud returns to form and Rooney stays up front)

[benni...]

I personally am against Owen coming to the club instead of our more immediate needs, which i believe most of you are. I was more onto the formation than rather having OWen.

[three lions]

This is a "no brainer" . Owen is far superior than Saha. I can't believe this is even being debated. Owen is on pace to break the England National Team goal scoring record. Yeah, Saha is much better than Owen, a far more clinical finisher and knows how to find the net better than Owen. :rolleyes: