The frustration is mounting .... [R]

[Defenestration]

is it just me, or has anyone noticed a positive correlation between (a) the USMNT's improvement as a footballing nation and (b) the amount of dirty, FILTHY, suspendable fouls our players have bore the brunt of from CONCACAF opponents??? this has always been a dirty confederation, but as US and Mexico have clearly left the other nations behind, some teams have taken this dirtiness to new heights IMHO.

solutions?? we have a few:

(1.) retaliate back
(2.) get real executives in charge of CONCACAF, people who'll actually punish this brutish behaviour
(3.) shake CONCACAF up ... merge with CONMEBOL ( :rolleyes: )

the problem is, as the USMNT continues to improve and become more elite, this type of barbarism on the pitch is only likely to become MORE prevalent. up to this point, we haven't lost the career of one of our key attackers YET. but against Jamaica in the Gold Cup, the US did lose it's starting right back (and if it is an ACL tear, they may never get him back in peak form).

it's easy to sit back and do nothing, but when we lose Landon Donovan to a career-ending knee injury b/c a Chapine was mad his team was losing 3-0 ........ THEN this board will howl.

[Asprilla9]

i'm kind of at my wits end with this stuff. something has to be done. obviously I would opt for solution #2, but with guys like Warner and Blazer in charge, I wouldn't hold my breath.

i would ask Mexico what they do, because they've been getting this type of treatment from everyone for much longer than we have. and methinks what they'd tell you is, they just give it right back. which may be what we're forced to do.

but i agree, the day something happens to LD or DMB in the waning minutes of a 4-0 match ..... heads will roll.

[jamison]

Anyone remember Pele almost getting crippled by Portugal in the 1966 WC?

When you win, these things happen. Always have, always will. We can't make a federal case out of every foul.

We just have to play better, and win the games. Let them be cheap shot artists, we'll raise trophies.

(also, I'm not above capping Joey Franchino for 10 minutes a game).

[SpencerNY]

We need to bring in this guy to do our defending from now on. He'd fix 'em!!





http://www.area51newmexico.com/disturbing_universe/funny/sport_tackle.jpg

[Sandon Mibut]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Every once in a while, Bruce needs to send out a thug lineup and just let them crack skulls, and other body parts, throughout the game.

Matt Reis, Nick Garcia, Mike Petke, Joe Franchino, Ryan Suarez, Danny O'Rourke, a pissed off Clint Mathis, Nate Jaqua (because he's so big and strong, not because he's thuggish), Kyle Beckerman, as-soon-as he's sworn in Dema Kovalenko and once-he's healthy Alecko Eskandarian.

Line 'em up like this:

-----------Reis
Garcia-Petke-Suarez-Franchino
---O'Rourke
-Beckerman---Dema
-----Mathis
----Esky---Jaqua-

Sure, we may not win but we'd damn sure send a message. I'm serious about this. We usually turn the other cheek and let the scoreboard to the talking and hope the ref and CONCACAF take care of things. But that doesn't happen all the time so we need to take matters into our own hands.

Let these teams know that if they come dirty at us, the next time we're sending out our thug team and they better bring extra stretchers. A couple of games of players being carried off and not coming back on and they won't be quite so prone to be dirty with us.

Show these teams that there will be some painful consequences for playing dirty with us and they probably won't feel quite so comfortable being so dirty.

[Alan S]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Every once in a while, Bruce needs to send out a thug lineup and just let them crack skulls, and other body parts, throughout the game.

Matt Reis, Nick Garcia, Mike Petke, Joe Franchino, Ryan Suarez, Danny O'Rourke, a pissed off Clint Mathis, Nate Jaqua (because he's so big and strong, not because he's thuggish), Kyle Beckerman, as-soon-as he's sworn in Dema Kovalenko and once-he's healthy Alecko Eskandarian.

Line 'em up like this:

-----------Reis
Garcia-Petke-Suarez-Franchino
---O'Rourke
-Beckerman---Dema
-----Mathis
----Esky---Jaqua-

Sure, we may not win but we'd damn sure send a message. I'm serious about this. We usually turn the other cheek and let the scoreboard to the talking and hope the ref and CONCACAF take care of things. But that doesn't happen all the time so we need to take matters into our own hands.

Let these teams know that if they come dirty at us, the next time we're sending out our thug team and they better bring extra stretchers. A couple of games of players being carried off and not coming back on and they won't be quite so prone to be dirty with us.

Show these teams that there will be some painful consequences for playing dirty with us and they probably won't feel quite so comfortable being so dirty.


I have to agree 100% with this post. I think once we had the game won, we should have sub someone in with the instructions to take out Stewart - the person that fouled Steve. I was so angry after seeing his attempt to end Dolo's career that I was ready to do it my self.

[Fires Of Fulham]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Every once in a while, Bruce needs to send out a thug lineup and just let them crack skulls, and other body parts, throughout the game.

I'm not sure we need a complete second lineup. We should use two of our bench spots to have a couple of enforcers. When we take a 3-0 lead, we just sub them in (leaving one sub spot if it hasn't been used earlier). If the opposing team starts roughing up the guys, the two enforcers start cracking skulls.

We just need to dig up the Hansen Brothers of top level soccer.

Or just find the Hansen Brothers (though there'd be a whole rigamarole over the fact they're Canadian citizens and in their 40s, blah, blah, blah). :D

Though, seriously, the entire lineup was in against Costa Rica was doing quite well on its own to bring the physical game to the Ticos. So it's not like we don't have a couple of people on our b-team we couldn't use who wouldn't really be a letup in quality.

[Liviu]

i would ask Mexico what they do, because they've been getting this type of treatment from everyone for much longer than we have. and methinks what they'd tell you is, they just give it right back. which may be what we're forced to do.

Mexico have learned to fall down at the first touch. A practice we all hate but which prevents injuries. Sadly, the U.S needs to take lessons from them and from Carlos Ruiz when playing against CONCACAF butchers.

It would also help if Referees would not hesitate to give straight RED a lot more often. Some CONCACAF players regularly comitt the type of fouls that in UEFA would earn them a straight red and fines/suspensions. Here we give'm a yellow... sometimes. Remember that two-legged studs-up tackle by Rojas against Hejduk in the Cuba game? It was right by the Ref too. By the rule book that's a straight red but I wasn't surprised to see only a yellow.

[Liviu]

solutions?? we have a few:

(1.) retaliate back
(2.) get real executives in charge of CONCACAF, people who'll actually punish this brutish behaviour
(3.) shake CONCACAF up ... merge with CONMEBOL ( :rolleyes: )


I really don't think retaliating back will work, as much as I'd love to see it. I think it may actually backfire on the U.S team. It'll only give the other teams a reason to really break legs.

I'm hoping that the U.S Soccer Fed really pushes FIFA to take a look at the situation and push CONCACAF to instruct Refs to give straight red when they should and to fine the player AND the Federation of the player who commits these type of reckless fouls.

[Ray Luca]

is it just me, or has anyone noticed a positive correlation between (a) the USMNT's improvement as a footballing nation and (b) the amount of dirty, FILTHY, suspendable fouls our players have bore the brunt of from CONCACAF opponents??? this has always been a dirty confederation, but as US and Mexico have clearly left the other nations behind, some teams have taken this dirtiness to new heights IMHO.

solutions?? we have a few:

(1.) retaliate back
(2.) get real executives in charge of CONCACAF, people who'll actually punish this brutish behaviour
(3.) shake CONCACAF up ... merge with CONMEBOL ( :rolleyes: )

the problem is, as the USMNT continues to improve and become more elite, this type of barbarism on the pitch is only likely to become MORE prevalent. up to this point, we haven't lost the career of one of our key attackers YET. but against Jamaica in the Gold Cup, the US did lose it's starting right back (and if it is an ACL tear, they may never get him back in peak form).

it's easy to sit back and do nothing, but when we lose Landon Donovan to a career-ending knee injury b/c a Chapine was mad his team was losing 3-0 ........ THEN this board will howl.

The team that did a lot of fouls uncalled fouls was Costa Rica.

The official in this game against Jamaica did a very good job.

Play against the New York Albanians they make either one of these two teams look like choir boys. At least the other two teams didn't bring weapons to their games.

Play against Nigeria they are not even dirty biut they tackle so hard and are so strong they would beat us to death legally.

What about Mexico how do they tackle?

The tackle on Dolo should have been a red card and not a yellow. That was a tackle meant to injury and he did injure. That boot was very high up on the knee as I remember it.

"1.) retaliate back"

That is the one the player gets caught doing. You wait take the opponents number show patience and get him first time while in transition as the official turnse to go in the other direction.

[Ray Luca]

i'm kind of at my wits end with this stuff. something has to be done. obviously I would opt for solution #2, but with guys like Warner and Blazer in charge, I wouldn't hold my breath.

i would ask Mexico what they do, because they've been getting this type of treatment from everyone for much longer than we have. and methinks what they'd tell you is, they just give it right back. which may be what we're forced to do.

but i agree, the day something happens to LD or DMB in the waning minutes of a 4-0 match ..... heads will roll.

Mexico dishes it out far better then they get.

[Ray Luca]

We need to bring in this guy to do our defending from now on. He'd fix 'em!!





http://www.area51newmexico.com/disturbing_universe/funny/sport_tackle.jpg



I wonder if he was cautioned :-)

[elbita]

i'm glad to see this thread because the violence in top level soccer bothers me to no end. that, combined with the other side of the coin- the diving, faking being hurt, etc.
frankly, i think soccer is probably the dirtiest, least sportsmanlike sport. we don't see too many bench-clearing brawls, but the amount of cheating and dirty play is staggering. sometimes the fouling and faking are so bad i can barely watch.

for me, a huge part of the problem is sliding. there are really only a few situations which necessitate sliding, most of them in front of your own goal. but a lot of pro soccer players slide ALL THE TIME, dozens of times a game, even when the ball is 70 yards from your goal and the player has his back to you. or the opponent is standing still. that's my favorite.

plus, when you lunge in with two feet, what on earth can you do even if you get "all ball"? the only thing you can do is smash the other player.

i think it's a miracle that people don't get hurt more. you have grown men, running at full speed, launching the full weight of their body behind a feet-first tackle aimed at the other guy's ankles, shins, calves, or knees. then if they get part of the ball they act like it's a clean play. it's not a clean play. it's ridiculous.

some people here probably think i'm getting into hyperbole, but i swear the punishments aren't nearly severe enough. missing a couple games is not that big a deal compared to ending someone's season or career.

the US can keep trying to play faster, but the punishment for holding onto the ball for too long shouldn't be a broken leg or torn ACL. it should be losing the ball.

this aspect of top level soccer drives me up the wall, and unfortunately i don't see it changing. if you complain about it you're likely to be labelled a wuss who doesn't want to "let them play". i do want to let them play, soccer, that is. throwing yourself at the opponent's legs when they are vulnerable isn't very soccer-like. you can have an aggressive, physical game without pretending you're in the cobra kai dojo.

look at the still photo of that tackle on beasley (in the post-game thread).
i know it got a red card, but WTF IS THAT? that guy should be suspended from national team duty for the next round of world cup qualifying. there is no possible justification for it. in another context it would be jail-worthy. so would the sport of boxing, i know.
seriously, what is added to soccer by tackles like that? this one was caught and punished, but they happen constantly. refs let it go because you can't red card everyone, can you? maybe if the guy were suspended from his national team for the next year he'd learn to control himself.

there's the rant. too bad nothing will change. they'll talk tough and give a suspension and a fine or two, and people will continue sliding 25 times a game.

[Flick On]

A simple solution: Find referees that enforce the effing rules of the game.

[bobarino]

The Code of School Yard is alive and well. The only way to stop being bullied is to sack up and stand up for yourself. You can't solve that problem by running to the teacher and crying about it. Do you honestly think that FIFA and CONCAF will help us. We have to take care of our own buisness. Are the Hanson Brothers available?

[sidefootsitter]

is it just me, or has anyone noticed a positive correlation between (a) the USMNT's improvement as a footballing nation and (b) the amount of dirty, FILTHY, suspendable fouls our players have bore the brunt of from CONCACAF opponents??? ...

Yes, because the minnow have nothing to lose (and because they play that way in home leagues anyway).

And because Arena fielded a small non-physical team.

There was another thread about this subject recently. I said then and I say now that you have to retaliate but smartly and not like Mike Hanke did at the Confed Cup, which got him sent-off vs. Mexico.

Two famous plays stand out for me from the 1982 finals, the "Butcher of Turin", aka Claudio Gentile, cluttered into the West German forward Klaus Fischer in what today be a tackle-from-behind red card. Back then, the ref didn't even give Gentile a yellow and Fischer spent several minutes laying on the pitch in obvious pain. He was carried off and eventially the play resumed.

5-7 minutes later, it was Fischer with the studs-up-from-behind red card type foul on Gentile. When the Italian right back returned to the game, there were no more shenanigans from him. The master of the bicycle kick wasn't carded either.

The problem with the US is that, aside of Pablo and maybe Frankie, the team is not tough and Bruce deliberately sent out a small team vs. Jamaica to begin with. It's not from Bruce's lack of desire to commit the first foul on his opponent.

[Red Card]

Mathis not only goes after thugs, he goes after the refs, the coach and the fans. It's guys like him that give red-necks a bad name! ;)

[Clint Eastwood]

Retaliation never works.

The best retaliation was seeing the forlorn Jamaican players and fans after the game.

This stuff happens all over the world, not just in CONCACAF. I agree that the Cherundolo foul should have been a red, but deliberately retaliating would have no doubt gotten our guy sent off. It would have been obvious that there was "intent" to harm the opposing player.

[Ray Luca]

"[QUOTE=elbita]i'm glad to see this thread because the violence in top level soccer bothers me to no end. that, combined with the other side of the coin- the diving, faking being hurt, etc.
frankly, i think soccer is probably the dirtiest, least sportsmanlike sport"

Not true player get's hurt and the opponent knocks the ball off the field so he can be treated. What other sport does that happen?

Plus in England a player made a mistake and should have given the ball to the other team and scored. The game was won by that team. The winning team and the club offered to play the game all over again and they did. What other sport have you seen that.

Another game team got the lead by not oberserving accepted sportsmen life behavior the coach of the team that scored told his players not to do anything on the opponents next attack so they scored. The winning team wanted and did let the opponent score the goal to draw level.

No other game coaches and club owners will ever let any of this happen. It is a special game in every way no doubt about it.
------------------------------------------------------------
"for me, a huge part of the problem is sliding. there are really only a few situations which necessitate sliding, most of them in front of your own goal. but a lot of pro soccer players slide ALL THE TIME, dozens of times a game, even when the ball is 70 yards from your goal and the player has his back to you. or the opponent is standing still. that's my favorite. "

If you are not a good stand up block tackler you revert to the slide. Lex Lalas was one of them. You lead the ball and put the ball off the touch to get time to get numbers back on defense. That is the reason for doing it most of the time. Sometimes it is a means from keeping the ball on the field and not losing it and sometimes you can get a shot off doing it.

Everyone has different oppionions on the slide tackle. There is a slide tackle that uses the near foot and not the far foot when going shoulder to shoulder. Smaller men gouing against bigger men do it and it is not done a lot any more. Convey did it. I remember Beckenbauer doing it and he was never a dirty player. You can also win the ball doing it.

In youth leagues some do not allow it and the leagues that do the coaches train the players how to do it and how to avoid geting caught by the slide.

" think it's a miracle that people don't get hurt more. you have grown men, running at full speed, launching the full weight of their body behind a feet-first tackle aimed at the other guy's ankles, shins, calves, or knees. then if they get part of the ball they act like it's a clean play. it's not a clean play. it's ridiculous. "

That's a bad tackle you go for the ball not the man in any tackle or it is a foul and you can also get cautioned yellow or red depending.

The worse game I every saw concerning the amt of slide tackles was a game between England and Italy. Game won by italy 1-0 goal by Zola. Must have been over 200 slide tackles in that game. over 9 yellows and a red here and there in that game. That was a bad game.

"some people here probably think i'm getting into hyperbole, but i swear the punishments aren't nearly severe enough. missing a couple games is not that big a deal compared to ending someone's season or career."

For me I don't like all the holding against the dribbler and nothing happens because of the advantage rule. The offical can still give a caution after the play, but they evidently forget to do it.

"the US can keep trying to play faster, but the punishment for holding onto the ball for too long shouldn't be a broken leg or torn ACL. it should be losing the ball."

Better to quick touch pass so you don't have the ball long enough to get fouled.



l

[DonCorleone]

Line 'em up like this:

-----------Reis
Garcia-Petke-Suarez-Franchino
---O'Rourke
-Beckerman---Dema
-----Mathis
----Esky---Jaqua-


hmm ..... i think i like this .. :rolleyes: